Liz

Closing the visit to the press could have been for any number of reasons. I'm not sure it helps to speculate on the reasons; perhaps we'll find out at some point.

At any rate, I did catch the MSNBC coverage of latino outreach by BSA online. They actually had two segments available on the website; one they aired on TV and another longer one where they had more of the Scout Executive's interview. For interested parties, I recommend getting online and viewing it. I don't know if it will still be available later, but it's there now.

-Liz

Now that we're off on goofy patrol names...

One of the newest patrols in our troop recently named themselves the Flaming Dingoes. I helped them design a patch with a flaming dingo on it, although they haven't placed their custom patch order yet.

OGE, I see what you mean now, but as you realize now you were probably being oversensitive. Not without good reason! It was smart of you to bring it here and get the reality check you were looking for. I kind of like the "Bear Rassler" name, although perhaps it has a slightly different spin when you HEAR it for the first time, rather than reading it spelled out.

-Liz

I googled "rassler" and I couldn't find any use of the term other than some European surnames and as a nonstandard pronunciation / spelling of "wrestler." I can't think of any reason why "Bear Rassler" could be offensive to anybody, except maybe people who think Boy Scouts should leave the poor helpless bears alone and stop wrestling with them.

Sometimes patrols do things which are mistaken. My son's first patrol when he crossed over from Webs was the "Eagle" patrol. Nothing unusual about that. But they chose a really cool art-deco stencil of an eagle to decorate their patrol flag with. Nothing wrong with that, either, but apparently it was just similar enough to a Nazi symbol that they ended up getting a lot of questions from people. I hadn't been aware that the Nazis even used an eagle as a symbol, but when I looked it up it was definitely NOT the same design as the one they'd downloaded and used on their flag. It was, however, a similar artistic style. It raised enough eyebrows that they ended up painting over the eagle symbol, and had a rather plain flag with no symbol on it at all. Better to not have people THINK it's a Nazi symbol, even though they're mistaken.

So... the moral of the story... if there are more people than just one who think "Bear Rassler" is offensive, they should be advised to change it. I personally can't quite figure out what you're seeing in it, though, OGE. Maybe it's a local or regional connotation the rest of us aren't aware of? I know of a hound club once that gave a college scholarship to a young man, but wasn't allowed to present it at the school's honors ceremony because the club name had "coon hunting" in it and some people thought it sounded racist. Why it's racist to hunt raccoons is hard for me to imagine, but I guess in some regions "coon" is a racial slur in addition to being slang for a small furry critter with unusual manual dexterity.

-Liz

My sons just got invitations from their lodge for the upcoming NOAC. As one can probably imagine, it's not an inexpensive trip from out here in the Left Coast. The invitation says it will be $928 -- each. For two boys, that is probably not something we can accommodate on such short notice.

Maybe, if he wants to badly enough to work for it and spend all his summer-job earnings on it, we might be able to help send the older boy. The younger one will still be a youth when the next one rolls around, so if he's still active he could have another shot at it. Would he have to be nominated again, or can anybody just go? The letter sent by the lodge makes it sound like it's only for the select few arrowmen who are nominated. Right now, one of their friends in their troop is pretty high up in Lodge leadership, which is probably part of why they got the invitation. Then again, they're both very active arrowmen so maybe they would have been nominated anyway.

Is it really worth $928 per kid to go?

It would have been helpful if they'd done the nominations and sent the invitations out MUCH sooner. If we'd known about this last summer, we might have been able to work toward it.

My younger son's already looked at the price tag and said "no way." But my older son's been sick in bed the last 24 hours and hasn't seen the invitation or heard about it yet. I am not sure whether to be encouraging of him trying to go or not. It's a pretty big chunk of change.

-Liz

I understand what you're saying, SSS, but the parents here are asking for a "crossover" ceremony. I realize each thing is different, but many packs/troops combine the ceremonies. The parents have probably seen them done as combined thing for all the Webelos that have gone before, and they feel like something is left out if crossover is not part of their sons' AOL ceremony.

I was just trying to come up with a way the ceremony might feel more "complete" for people who feel the crossover and AOL are inseparable. I think it could be made meaningful to the one boy who is truly crossing over, as well as a last-ditch invitation for the other boys to include a "You, too, can cross over when you choose to" sentiment.

I've run into issues with the combined ceremony (which is how it was done when each of my boys earned his AOL), so I can see wisdom in keeping them separate. But if they've been combined traditionally in this pack, it may not be a good time (right now, at the last minute) to separate them out. It could work to make the AOL and crossover two different elements of the same ceremony, and each boy participates in the part(s) that pertain to him.

-Liz

Life is definitely reachable. Eagle will be hard, but can probably be done. It's hard for all boys, even the ones who didn't drop out for a few years!

Even if you were to never pass First Class, however, the experience of being in Boy Scouts would be a valuable one. Now that you're a little older, you can probably appreciate the opportunity better than you could when you were around 12.

I think it is worthwhile to rejoin. Yes, work hard and try to attain Eagle; but most of all, join up and learn what you can learn, enjoy the fun stuff, and have the satisfaction of pushing through and completing the stuff that isn't as much fun.

Best wishes!

-Liz

How would something like this work:

Hold an AOL ceremony for all 3 boys earning that reward.

At the end, *invite* those boys who want to join a Troop to "cross over." Make it part of the ceremony; something like, "Now that you have earned your Arrow of Light, you are ready to cross over the bridge and begin your Trail to Eagle. If you are ready for the next challenge, stand up and follow me."

Let the boys know ahead of time what's going on. Maybe only the one boy will do it, maybe the other boys will surprise you at the last minute and decide they want to do it. Any boys who DON'T do it should be reminded that they are eligible to cross over any time they are ready. Perhaps acknowledge their choice to pursue a different path other than the Trail to Eagle at this time, and wish them well on their other paths.

The crossover can be a fairly small segment of the AOL ceremony, and I don't think there's any reason to make the boys who aren't crossing over feel left out. And, frankly, if NONE of the boys were going on to a Troop, I wouldn't see any problem with a "crossing out" ceremony, really. But it does seem right to acknowledge the one boy who has decided to embark on the next segment of the Scouting journey, by letting him cross over.

Just a thought.

-Liz

"That's just the page they WANT you to see."

That's a very good point! In my case, of course this is not the only online monitoring I do of the kids. I'm lucky in that I've been a tech professional since they were toddlers and I'm a lot more web-savvy than they are. Not many parents can say that, and unfortunately not enough parents care. I would think that the majority of the parents who have their kids in Scouting *would* care, but not necessarily all of them.

"Bottom line, if your grandmother (or SM) wouldn't approve, don't post it! "

This is the message I give my kids as well, along with some guidance along the lines of "Grandma wouldn't approve of this (and neither do I), and this is why... so take it down." I haven't seen any evidence of my kids behaving badly, but sometimes the statements, or "pieces of flair" or similar things that they put in their profile have connotations they weren't aware of, and they need a little advice. Those situations are becoming less frequent as they get older and "get" more of the jokes they didn't used to understand...

-Liz

I agree that these boys' parents need to be informed. I would do that first, before talking to the boys about it again. But I also don't think I'd drop the issue with the boys, even if the parents aren't willing to take any action.

My sons each have Facebook and Myspace accounts, with the condition that I am in their friends lists. They don't use Myspace much, but we all use Facebook fairly regularly. I use it to keep up with my own friends, but the main reason I stay active on it (not daily, but every week or so) is so I can keep an eye out for what my kids are doing. One of my sons did once put up something that I felt was questionable, and I made him take it down. It was a good opportunity to discuss intention vs. impression when things are put out there in public for people to see.

I also use Facebook to monitor my niece's online "comings and goings" since no other adult in her life is doing so. In addition, my kids are required to keep my husband and his adult children on their Friends lists. They also have such people as our pastor and youth pastor on their lists; the more trusted adult spies who have access to their pages, the better, I think. (And I also keep an eye out for my friends' kids on Facebook).

There is one other boy in my sons' troop who's on Facebook, and he's also in my Friends list, as well as on my sons' Friends list. But I don't get into "SuperPoke" or other ongoing stuff with him. I try to keep online communication with troop members (including email) on a "professional" level. In fact, the only reason I email this boy at all is because his dad's the Scoutmaster and he doesn't do anything online at all (and I can hardly conduct any business without it). So the boy is my liaison to his dad ("Hey, _____. Can you ask your dad _______ for me? Thanks!")

"Liz, Congrats on getting a helpful diagnosis."

I still don't have an actual on-the-record medical diagnosis... and I probably never will. My friend who is an RN who also has Celiac Disease talked me into trying a gluten-free diet. I can't even begin to describe the difference... first the IBS symptoms went away (but would come back every time I thought I could eat just "a little" gluten) and then after a few months 100% gluten-free the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome disappeared, and then the Fibromyalgia symptoms... wow! But... because I'm not eating gluten any more, there is no meaningful test I can take for diagnosis. I'm not willing to make myself sick again just for a test. BUT... after seeing the dramatic difference in my health, my sister and my mom both got tested (blood test and intestinal biopsy) and were positive for Celiac disease. They're now on the road to recovery... although my mom's Celiac-caused neuropathy (previously considered idiopathic) may never heal entirely. I've also had my boys tested, but so far they're ok (we'll re-test every few years so if they develop a problem we can fix it before it causes permanent damage).

So... yes. Hooray for a finally helpful diagnosis, even if it wasn't my doctor who provided it! The diet's a pain in the toosh, but it's nothing compared to being sick, tired, and in pain all the time.

-Liz

It's been a long hard road for me, but I'm finally starting to get in shape now that I know I can't tolerate gluten (Celiac disease -- it's much more common than was once thought). I used to be exhausted and in pain all the time, and the more I dieted and/or exercised the worse it got. Now that my body and metabolism are working right, I'm resisting the temptation to go on a real restricted-calorie diet, and instead trying to just develop new life-long habits. Next week I intend to start getting on the treadmill EVERY day; I'll start with 30 minutes (which is comfortable for me now, but I used to have trouble with 5) and work up to an hour a day. I'm generally just getting more active already, spending more time outside, shouldering more of the work around our little hobby farm, and just going places instead of staying home all the time.

-Liz

I seriously doubt either of my boys will ever make Eagle, although they still have plenty of time to change their minds if they decide to go for it. They both just hate "homework" too much. They love camping, they love the OA, they love the service projects, the meetings, and all the cool things they learn.

My younger son's been First Class for over a year, with 3 "required" MBs done and 4 other partials for "required" MBs. He's done everything except the reports for several, including Communication and at least one Citizenship badge. He already has more than enough elective MBs to carry him all the way to Eagle. He's 13. He plans to do his Lifesaving MB at camp this summer, and if he completes that (I believe he will) then he'll be Star. I'd be surprised if he goes any further than that in rank, but I think he'll stay active in Scouting for a long time.

My older son is almost 15 and has been a Star Scout forever... he is serving as Troop Guide and does a great job. He says if he ever gets around to getting all the required MBs, then he'll do an Eagle Project and go for it, but he doesn't consider it a high priority. Like his younger brother, he has more than enough elective MBs finished.

I have no problem with them getting what they want out of Scouting. I encourage them to keep Eagle in mind when choosing what to do next, but what mother could complain that her kids sign up for every possible service project even though they have had "enough" hours for the next rank for the last year? I am happy with what they are learning, both in terms of skills and values. What else could I ask for?

-Liz

Just one more voice for the majority opinion...

If your son does not have another option for a MBC for this badge, then go ahead. But try to not to do this more than once or twice. It will not look good for him when/if he is within reach of Eagle.

In our troop, we try very hard not to have the boys do the Eagle-required MBs with their own parents. The SM won't approve an Eagle MB with a parent MBC unless there's no other option. In addition, the SM tries to have the Eagle Required MBs done with a variety of different MBCs, so even if it's not the boy's parent it's also not the boy's best friend's parent for all of them. The only MB I've done with my boys is one that I'm doing now as a group because we had almost 20 boys want to do it and I just can't do them all individually.

If there's another MBC who can do it, I'd send the boy there. That doesn't mean you can't help him with learning the material he needs to fulfill the requirements. The MBC signs off to show that your son has met the requirements; in most cases, he/she does not have to be the one who does the teaching. So I'd say, go ahead and get started with your boy, have fun, and if at all possible have him demonstrate what he's learned with you to another MBC for his badge.

-Liz

Like Shortridge, my asthma is triggered by even minute bits of cigarette smoke. If there's not a stiff breeze blowing it consistently away from me, I can have an attack triggered by someone smoking 50 yards away, outdoors (or further, if the wind's actually blowing it my way). Most of my asthma attacks are triggered by smokers who are far enough away that I can't see or smell them until it's too late and my lungs are already swelling shut.

I used to have a neighbor across the street who was a smoker, and in the summer I kept having attacks every time they opened a window. I had to keep all my windows shut all summer long, and eventually had to move away because of it. I know this is extreme, but I'm really not the only person who is severely allergic to tobacco smoke.

I do not feel that smoking is appropriate in the presence of boys. The example it sets is only a small part of it. It's bad enough as an adult to have to approach someone and say "You're affecting my health" (and I don't dare approach until the cigarette is out anyway). It is unhealthy for the kids to be exposed to the toxins in cigarette smoke. What's wrong with taking a LONG walk, to the parking lot or wherever, and taking your smoke there if it's absolutely necessary?

And hasn't anybody ever heard of the nicotine patch?

I already said I don't know what the outcome would have been for this young girl I'm talking about. I only know what the outcome WAS: Dead fetus, and a very depressed girl who was back on drugs and back with the loser boyfriend within days. She'd been clean and sober for 3 months before the abortion. Would it have stuck? Would she have been that exception who became an ok mother in the long run? I don't know. I don't believe she was an "addict" at the time -- just a girl making wrong choices. I haven't heard what's happened to her in the last 10 years or so, but my guess is that she's an addict by now.

The other part of the story is that her best friend was also pregnant at the time... a few months ahead of her. The friend gave birth and gave the child up for adoption. I do think adoption is probably the best choice for the vast majority of these young girls who are pregnant. In any case, I think it's a bunch of BS to talk about CHOICE when girls are forced or coerced into these situations. I don't care if other people say "it was for the best" that she had the abortion. What happened to this girl's choice?

"95% of the so-called "pro-life" people I ever met are also for the death penalty"

I guess I'm in that other 5%. I am against the death penalty, war, AND abortion.

I don't have a real strong opinion on Obama's decision to rescind the "gag order." I also don't have a very strong opinion on exactly how to write legislation regarding abortion. At this point in time, I don't think it's realistic to try and make it illegal. I hope for a day when our society will offer real choices, not just the Hobson's Choice that many women face when they have an unplanned pregnancy.

One thing I do wish people could agree on is something that would protect pregnant women from coerced abortions. Most reasonable people, whether pro-Life or pro-Choice, agree that women should not be forced to have abortions. The people who push the pro-Choice legislation through, on the other hand, seem to think it's better to have women forced into abortions than to risk making anybody second-guess their decision to have one. Heaven forbid we offer counseling to teenage girls who seek an abortion, to screen them and make sure they're making the choice of their own free will -- we might accidentally discourage one of them from following through with it!

I have known too many people who have been driven to abortion clinics by angry boyfriends. One time, I knew a 14 year old girl who, when she got over the "shock" of finding out she was pregnant, dumped her loser boyfriend, quit drugs, and started secretly seeing a doctor for prenatal care. She even decided she was going to learn to knit. When she was pregnant enough that she started showing, she finally got up the courage to tell her mother she was expecting. Her mother drove her to the abortion clinic and she had an abortion that very hour. I don't know how things would have turned out if this young woman had given birth to that baby, but I can say for certain that she did not have a CHOICE.

So... maybe we can't make laws preventing women from choosing abortion. But can we at least make some laws which will protect women who choose to give birth to living babies?

-Liz

We have one patrol with their patrol emblem painted onto the underside or a rabbit skin, stretched out on a loop at the end of a pole. I think it looks pretty neat.

One of my boys used to be in a patrol (which no longer exists) that had a really neat flag. They took a thick piece of leather, cut it out into the shape of the State of Oregon, and with a stencil and spray-paint put an outline of an eagle logo and their troop number on it. They hung this from a t-shaped pole. They were very proud of it. Unfortunately for the fate of the flag, most of the boys in the patrol (a "new scout" webelos cross-over patrol) dropped out of Scouting within a couple months, and the remaining two switched to a new troop a year later and were enveloped into a patrol of older Scouts. But I've still got that old leather flag laying around here somewhere.

All that being said, none of the boys in our troop use their patrol flags very much.

-Liz

Our Ordeal registration says:

"Cost for OA Candidates is $40.00, which includes all food for the weekend, a new OA sash, OA handbook, OA Lodge pocket patch, and your 2009 annual OA Membership Dues. You can also optionally purchase a Lodge T-shirt." (Elsewhere on the registration it shows that the T-shirt is $12.50.)

Members are $15. This doesn't include the annual dues ($10), the T-shirt ($12.50), or the promotion to Brotherhood ($15, probably for the new sash, flap, etc.).

Overall, I'd say $45 is within the normal range for an Ordeal Candidate.

Just an update -- I sent my son to the activity, and he came back really jazzed. He had a lot of fun, learned a lot, made some cool crafts, and even bought a bead loom.

Thanks, All. :-)

-Liz

We don't attend the church that sponsors our troop.

The boys who attend the CO's church do wear their uniforms on Scout Sunday, but as far as I know nothing else special is done. At least, if it is, it's not talked about at troop events.

Our church does nothing for Scout Sunday. We have several Boy and Cub Scouts who attend my church, from various packs/troops. I'm unaware of any Girl Scouts in our congregation. I've never seen any kids show up for church in their uniform unless they were arriving directly from a Scouting event.

Frankly, I think it's a little sad. I have recently volunteered to be Troop Chaplain in our troop; I don't know yet whether I'll be accepted in that role or not since I'm not a member of the CO's church (several of the council members, which I've been one of off and on, are not members of that church -- but we've never had a Chaplain and I don't know whether they'd have different criteria for that or not). If I were Troop Chaplain, I would encourage all the boys to participate in Scout Sunday (or Scout Sabbath, as the case may be, though I'm unaware of any Jewish boys or 7th Day Adventists in our Troop) at their various places of worship.

-Liz

Hah! There we go. Anybody who wants to know anything about his/her past can just run for Prez! No problem! I saw a guy on TV a bit ago who was suffering from amnesia and couldn't remember who he was or where he was from. He should run for Prez!

I'm not blinded by adoration for anybody, but I may be a bit jaded by all this nitpicking about what does or does not constitute a "real" birth certificate. I still have a hard time with expecting Obama to produce some obscure document that may or may not be on file somewhere but isn't normally accessed. How many other Hawaiians can produce their hospital birth record? My husband went to Diving School in Hawaii in the 60's, and his diving certification was supposed to be on file permanently, but when he tried to get a copy of it, he couldn't. I know that's not exactly the same as a Birth Cert., but still. I think it's an unrealistic burden to put on anybody.

There was question about whether John McCain would fit the "Native Born" criteria, too (because it's not well defined in the constitution what that means). I thought the people griping about that were being petty also.

-Liz

"A birth certificate is signed by the delivering physician and a witness (usually a nurse). The time and place (a hospital) is likewise recorded."

"The Obama campaign has said that he was born in a hospital so he would have a Birth Certificate. The only thing posted and vouched for by Hawaii is a Certificate of Live Birth."

"...he could have produced a true Birth Certificate that he obtained from the state of Hawaii for very little."

==========================

Ok, is Hawaii the only state that does things this way? I have never heard of such a strange thing. Birth Certificates are issued by the government -- county or state -- not by hospitals. The record I got when each of my children was born was called a "Hospital Birth Record" -- and it said very clearly on it that it was NOT a Birth Certificate. The Birth Certificate is not signed by the doctor, midwife, etc.. It is applied for later and issued by the state.

I have looked into getting a replacement certificate for myself, as I mentioned before, because mine is wearing out. I know for a fact that the State of Texas does not have any way to pull up the Hospital Birth Record. All they can or will issue is the "Certificate of Live Birth."

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy all this stuff. I don't have my hospital birth record. I don't know if I have the ones for my kids anymore or not. It really didn't seem that important. I can't think of any reason why I should expect Obama to have his. Furthermore, I would be surprised if a replacement could be obtained from the hospital after 47 years. A "True Birth Certificate" is the one issued by the state, not the hospital. A hospital birth record is not considered a valid form of ID for... anything that I can think of. In the days when you could go to Mexico or Canada without a passport, the hospital birth record was not sufficient. The state-issued Certificate of Live Birth was required. To get a passport, you need the Certificate of Live Birth. To get a Social Security Card... you guessed it, CoLB. So, as far as I can tell, this elusive "true" birth certificate is a fictional construct.

I'm not worried. I would never be a serious contender for President, anyway. I can't think of any reason anybody would want to see the 1970s era version of my Birth Certificate unless I got the nomination for President. ;-)

It is true that the deterioration of the certificate has slowed down considerably now that I have a passport and no longer haul the birth certificate in my purse when I go out of the country. That piece of paper has been back and forth to Mexico at least a dozen times, though. Paper that gets used wears out. It's in bad enough shape now I don't think I'll be able to use it next time I renew my passport -- I wasn't sure it would hold together last time I took it out, and I'm fairly sure it WON'T next time. But that's ok. I'll just get a "Certificate of Live Birth" from the State of Texas, and not worry about the people who claim it's not a "real" Birth Certificate.

-Liz

LOL! What incredible ignorance. I never quite realized how severely lame this argument was. Thank you for posting the clarification.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that the form they want to see was how they looked in 1979, before computers, when a request for a birth certificate meant someone pulled the original out of a filing cabinet, transcribed the info on a form with a typewriter, signed it, and embossed it with the state seal.

My Certificate of Live Birth which my mom got in the 70's from the State of Texas so I could enter kindergarten looked very much like the one in the second link. But it's falling apart now. You can barely read it because of its age. When I order a new one from the State of Texas (and I'll have to soon), it will look more like the one Obama provided (just a Texan version). In another 10 years, when my current copy of my birth certificate is as old as President Obama is now, it probably will just be dust. I won't be able to "produce" it for anybody, either.

My husband is a prostate cancer survivor -- again, because of very early detection. His cancer was an aggressive form -- not the kind that you can live with a long time before it takes over (as some prostate cancers can be). But he is cancer-free today because of the ever-unpleasant but always-necessary routine exam from a urologist.

And... any side effects from the prostatectomy weren't half as bad as what untreated cancer would have caused in short order anyway.

This is an important topic to remind each other of, even though it does appear that the OP is some kind of a troll (google the text of the message, in quotes... he/she didn't actually write this, and her only other post on this forum is incoherent). I'd be very wary against clicking on the link in her signature

-Liz