Liz

Yes, our camps also offer a 20% discount in the Council shop for required items like new uniform pieces.

I don't think choosing a Venturing uniform is an option. I know when there were females on staff at the cub scout camps (who were parts of venturing or sea scout or other co-ed Boy Scout programs), they all wore the regular Khakitan Boy Scout uniforms.

-Liz

Hi, folks!

I am just curious about how other councils do this. In my council (I am told), the staff at the summer camps are required to have not only a complete summer uniform but also the *most recent* summer uniform.

Since my older son is talking about volunteering at a summer camp this year, this has become of particular interest to me.

Even though I'm somewhat dismayed by the thought of having to fork out the $$ for a Centennial uniform because of some of the quality concerns addressed in a previous thread, I in no way question the right of my council camps to make this a requirement. I'll do it, and I won't make a fuss about it. I am just curious to know how other council camps do things in this regard. Are there other situations in which it is required for scouts to have the LATEST uniform in order to participate?

On the plus side, for reasons I can't quite explain, I really like sewing patches on uniforms (I do it not only for my boys -- I know, they should learn themselves but I can't help myself -- but I do it for my friends' boys, too). It will be fun to put them on the new uni. ;-)

-Liz

I can't speak for all states, but at least here in Oregon it would be very unusual to have a no-out-of-state-travel clause in a custody agreement. It would only hold up if either both parents agreed to it or there was a reasonable question about one parent taking a kid and running.

I can't imagine any pair of parents agreeing to such a thing without something for exceptions; "Little Billy is not allowed to travel out of state without permission in writing from both parents" or "without 10 days written notification to the other parent" or something of that sort. This is the most likely context you would run into it with.

In the event that you run across such a clause pertaining to any of the boys in your unit, you definitely need to sit down and have a talk with the custodial parent and find out what the rules are. It would be your job to keep the parents informed with enough time to make arrangements like permission or written notification... beyond that, whether Little Billy actually gets permission or not is completely between the parents themselves.

If you want to take boys out of the country, on the other hand, that is more complicated. A child can no longer get a passport without notarized permission from both the custodial and the non-custodial parent. There are some exceptions to this rule, but they are usually harder to comply with than getting both parents to sign. Fortunately for me, this rule was not in effect when I got my boys their passports; I just had to bring my custody agreement that showed I had sole custody. Not that their father would object (in fact, I was able to get him to sign a note, just in case), but just that their father is so hard to find most of the time and impossible to talk into doing anything inconvenient -- such as go to a notary.

Now, while it's true that nobody besides the custodial parent can technically sign permission slips and such (in most cases, non-custodial parents can also sign most things), in practice other adults do this all the time. I've had schools, hospitals, and other people who know full well that my husband is not my kids' legal guardian still have him sign if I'm not available. My parents sign for my niece and nephew all the time. The only way it could fall apart is if someone were to contest it in court -- and that someone would probably have to be the custodial parent, not the non-custodial one. It's not a situation that's likely to happen.

-Liz

King of the Hill is the BEST! I'm sorry I missed this episode. I'll have to keep my eyes open for a rerun.

Of course, after reading _The_Slippery_Slope_ (Series of Unfortunate Events, Book the Tenth), I will never again be able to listen to the recitation of the Scout Oath and Law without thinking "Xylophone!"

Anything worth doing is worth spoofing.

-Liz

Why not point the requirement out to the boys who are requesting information, and remind them that they need to fulfill it?

Also, maybe they were active for 6 months after becoming Life Scout, but just aren't any longer, in which case you probably don't have much to say about it -- but you can still encourage them to come and share some of their experience with the younger scouts.

Rather than looking for excuses to turn them away, why not look for excuses to get them back involved?

-Liz

It also sounds to me like the parent was out of line, and the leader... it's hard to know without seeing exactly what happened, but the leader was right to intervene.

I think it's important to support your leaders... but...

I am very concerned that the parent has apologized and offered even to stay away from the troop so her son can continue, and the leader is not willing to let it go.

I think a reasonable compromise would be to let the boy continue, have the parent stay away until she has completed some training (or, worst case scenario, until the leaders leave if you think that's happening in the next year or so -- speaking as a "girl," sometimes it's hard for us to let go of grudges and it might be better not to have these two in the same room too often). If the leader wouldn't accept this kind of compromise, then I am afraid it DOES cause me to question the leader. Having the PARENT at scout activities can be considered a YPT thing, but how does having the BOY in the troop compromise YPT?

-Liz

For the first question, regarding SM's role in removing a problem scout from the unit, I would personally have a real problem with my committee if they tried to overrule our SM's decision on such a matter. If I didn't have faith in my SM to make those kinds of decisions, I would have my boys in a different troop. Ideally, of course, it would be best to have the SM in consultation with the CC and other people in leadership before taking such a drastic step.

For the second question, if this came up in our unit and if I were in charge, I think I would invite the boys to attend certain outings and meetings (perhaps not ALL activities, but enough to keep them interested) as Webelos guests until their birthdays. I would explain to them (and their parents) the BSA guidelines. I would also point out that it doesn't make any sense for a Scout troop to model "fudging" of the rules. But I would also try to make the boys welcome. They would wear their Webelos scarves and their blue loops until their birthdays, and they would not start working on their advancements (although they could continue earning Webelos pins if they like), but after they turn 10 I would formally accept them into the troop without hesitation. I might do it a little differently if the boys were behavioral problems (as even good 9 yr olds can often be).

Our troop frequently has Webelos visitors both at regular weekly meetings and on campouts, so this would be pretty natural for us, I think.

-Liz

Tourrette's runs in my family so I have a fair amount of experience with and knowledge about it, given that I'm not a medical person or anything.

First, I would definitely talk to the boy's parents. I would find out what, if any, diagnosis the child has, and what, if anything, you have their permission to share with the other boys.

The other suggestions about using this as a learning tool for the kids, understanding differences and disabilities, are all wonderful -- so I won't repeat them. :-)

Remember, if the child has T.S., any attempt to suppress the symptoms cause a great deal of distress for the child and will most likely cause larger outbursts when he can't hold back any more. It's kind of like trying to hold back a cough or a sneeze; sometimes you can do it for a while, but you can't keep it up, and it can make the symptom worse in the long run. Ideally, the kid should feel comfortable enough in his den that any tics or vocalizations that aren't destructive or hurtful shouldn't be something he has to feel embarrassed about or try to hide. Chances are, if it's T.S., the symptoms will peak in his pre-teen years, and then diminish somewhat after puberty.

If the child's behavior is destructive, not just distracting, then you may have to deal a little bit differently with it. Medication can help, but the side effects are nothing to mess around with so if it were MY child, I'd have to carefully balance his social development and the severity of his behavior against the side effects of medication... it wouldn't be an easy choice; so as his den leader you need to be understanding that the parents really don't have a magic solution to the problem. It's also SO hard to figure out what's a behavior problem and what's a neurological problem; T.S. can come along with many other issues besides just tics and vocalizations, including anxiety, paranoia, and even mild hallucinations.

Good luck. I think Scouting can be such a good experience for kids with neurological differences, because they grow up with a group of friends who have an opportunity to get to know the boy and are most likely not going to be as cruel as the school kids.

-Elizabeth

I AM proud of them. The boy who did the post-production emailed me the link and asked me to put it on the troop website (I'm the troop webmaster) -- which of course I did.

Both my sons are in the video; my younger one is the original zombie, and my older one's wearing the orange t-shirt and grey hat.

-Liz

Unfortunately, it's not my call. But I agree with you, eagle77. I'd like to see the adults step back and let the kids take the reigns most of the time.

Anyway, it was fun to see the kids' video. Ours can't be the only ones out there doing stuff like this, right?

-Liz

Generally speaking, our troop is a little heavier on adult-initiative than I'd like, but the boys come up with their own activities from time to time, as they did on a troop campout last weekend.

This was the result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc_DQY4dvvU

Do your troops every do things like this? I'd love to see other troop-created YouTube videos if they're out there.

-Liz

Ditto J-KC.

While it might be desirable in some areas to have road hikes, and one could read the MB handbook to imply that it ought to be road hikes, it doesn't state it outright. In fact, I would read the requirements slightly differently: "Avoid major highways" certainly includes using bike-only pathways if they're available, IMO! Safety is key; if it's unsafe to ride your bike on the roads in your area, then find off-road alternatives.

The boys on our troop do troop hikes for some of the MB requirements. I'm not a Cycling counselor, but if I were I would still encourage this. Most of the cycling they do is on dedicated bike paths, but the bike paths DO require street-crossings and some biking along back-roads as well.

As long as the Scout demonstrates an understanding of how to safely co-exist with cars, I don't see why that understanding has to be proven in the context of the 50-mile bike hike.

-Liz

"Plus, there are some people out there that want to have a co-ed scouting program"

But there already is one. Hasn't this guy ever heard of Campfire USA?

-Liz

(Former Campfire "Bluebird")

I don't know how big your troop is or how many Webelos you have attending, but something fun might be to have the patrols compete with each other for training the Webelos in some skill; assign each den to a patrol, have the patrol teach the den something (lashing, making a splint, whatever), and then make the patrol step back and let the den compete for who learned the skill the best. The best den wins, AND the patrol that does the best job at training wins! This has the potential of doing a few things:

1) The patrols will have an incentive to interact directly with the Webelos scouts in a meaningful way.

2) The patrols get to practice the mentoring skills AND the Webelos get a taste of what it's like to be taught skills by older boys, not just adults.

3) It could build a bond between a Webelos den and a patrol in your troop, thereby giving the den a reason to choose your troop over another one (or over ditching Scouts altogether of course).

Anyway, it's just a thought. I've never actually tried such a thing. Our boys have fond memories of going to a local Troop when they were Webelos, and competing as if they were a patrol in a first-aid contest -- and winning! I have pictures of all these big tall Boy Scouts standing around and watching the Webelos show them how it's done right! :-)

-Liz

I like what the others have posted so far. I only have one small thing to add.

I think you need to try to discover whether this theft is a symptom of a larger problem.

Some examples:

Is the boy tired of Scouts and is maybe looking for a way to get "kicked" out?

Does the boy have a particular problem with the other boy he stole from?

Has the boy gotten into drugs and is "needing" money to fund the habit?

Is the boy going through some kind of trauma at home (divorce, someone laid off work, abuse, anything) that he might be "acting out" as a result of?

What is the boy's home life like in general? What kind of behavior do his parents model for him? Is this the kind of thing where they'll be mad that he stole, or mad that he was dumb enough to try to resell the item within the troop and therefore get caught? (Some of the worst behavior problems I've seen within our troop came from a boy -- who eventually dropped out -- whose father openly disobeyed the law, hedged on his taxes, etc.. and bragged that it doesn't matter unless you get caught)

I don't think these questions necessarily will provide the answer as to how to deal with the problem, but I also don't think you can really choose the *best* way to handle it without trying to answer the questions first.

-Liz(This message has been edited by liz)

"I hope they aren't implying a 'night watch'"

They didn't just imply it, they told me flat out that they recommended a 24-hour night watch and wanted to make sure we had enough adults available to take rotations through the night. If I remember the conversation correctly, I don't think they said it was absolutely required to have a night watch, but I'm not sure.

If you and/or any of your boys want to meet up with us while we're down there, we'd be happy to have you along. :-) We will be there in March... PM me if you are interested in exact dates.

How did you get a discount from Enterprise? They quoted me $132 for the day (with unlimited miles so we could go to Big Trees; $122 with a mileage limit). Now, that's a 24-hour day, since we won't be able to return the van until after hours, and that might make a difference.

I should note that I talked to at least 4 different people at Enterprise before one of them told me they couldn't "knowingly" rent to a Boy Scout group unless we had a driver with a CDL. Since it looks like we have the opportunity to have a CDL driver along, I think I'll try to stick with that plan since it covers every possible scenario.

-Liz

We *occasionally* do stuff like this. I think maybe our unit was planning to do an Archery badge this coming weekend.

The trip I'm taking the boys on in the spring is being billed as a "Railroading Merit Badge Trip" but that's sort of a misnomer -- although we will be covering maybe 2 or 3 requirements on the trip, we'll be doing 90% of the MB ahead of time and some of the boys working on the MB aren't going on the trip at all. Other than riding the train to Sacramento and visiting the railroading museum, most of what we'll be doing will not be directly related to the MB.

In reality, we rarely get an entire MB done in a single weekend. There are a few exceptions. Our district occasionally puts on MB weekends at a local camp, and those are popular, but they're only available for a couple of MBs.

-Liz

Thanks, CA_Scouter! I have been to Old Town Sacramento a few times. When we went to visit my husband's siblings this summer we swung by to take a look at Camp Pollock. It looks like it will be just fine; I'm more concerned about light rail or going downtown after dark. They told me we need to post an adult watch at all times at the camp, so I'll follow that, but I don't actually expect any problems.

It's interesting -- I called Budget and they told me that they didn't have any 15-pass vans. I wonder about the law change; it's all very confusing. AAAAH!

A Mini-van would definitely work if we *only* wanted to use it to get the kids from the camp to Amtrak. I am hoping to do one all-day excursion up to Big Trees, though. I've been there before with my boys, but none of the other adults or youth in our unit have been. Enterprise can meet us at the camp at, say, 8:00 AM with the van, and we can pack everything up, go see the Redwoods, hike around a little, and be back to Sacramento by about 9:30 PM with more than enough time to get on the train and go.

Have you ever taken your unit on the Sacramento Historic Trail and/or the Historic Rail hike? That's something we're planning to do.

-Liz

Hmm. All good ideas if the CDL driver falls through.

I *did* ask the lady at the council when I made the camp reservations. She suggested chartering a school bus. I did not ask the DE, but if push comes to shove I will try that. I know there is a wide range of how knowledgeable the volunteer at the front desk at the council is (or is not).

The ideas of checking for promotional rates from Limo companies or calling the law enforcement officers do have merit. The link to the Explorer posts might come in handy in that respect, too; maybe some officers and Explorers might be interested in riding the light rail from the camp to the train station with us.

Does anybody here on the board live in Sacramento? As a side note, my sister-in-law said there were some sections of the light rail which were considered gang "territory" and nobody should ride them at any time of day. I was wondering whether I could find out ahead of time what those are (or if she's just being paranoid). We're planning to earn the Historic Rail patch from the council down there, and that involves a light rail trip.

*sigh* I am so spoiled. My biggest safety concern around here is whether the pack of coyotes I heard last night is going to try to eat my newborn lambs.

-Liz

Hertz in Sacramento told me they did not have 15 passenger vans. The most they had was 7-passenger.

I called every rental agency in Sacramento before resorting to Enterprise.

*sigh*

-Liz

LOL! I love the horse-drawn carriage idea. But it would be hard to make it up to Big Trees State Park (we're kind of hoping for a side trip, seeing as how we have to rent a van anyway).

Thanks for the encouragement and ideas, folks. I do feel better knowing that it's a state law issue and not just an annoying insurance policy on the part of Enterprise rent-a-car.

So far, it's looking more and more like the one boy's aunt really wants to go. Apparently, his mom's been talking to her about it since we started planning the trip, and she's been complaining that it sounds like SO much fun and she sure wished she could go along... LOL! :-)

It is certainly within walking distance, but I was told by the Council down there when I called to reserve space at Camp Pollock that we should NOT be walking around after dark in that part of town. My sister-in-law also lives in Sacramento, and she said the same thing. (And no, she's not able to assist in any significant way).

And if we can't get someone with a CDL, we probably can find a way to make it work with 2 mini-van rentals. It's not as economical, and it does complicate things in ways that it doesn't make sense to go into here, but the obstacles are not completely insurmountable.

Thanks again. :-)

-Liz

heehee. When my dad taught me to drive, he made a point of teaching me about NO caravans. Every driver must know where he or she is going, and not rely on having to follow someone, because that leads to unsafe driving choices (running "yellow" lights, changing lanes when it's not safe, etc..) I don't know about your personal no-convoy prejudice, but I have to say from experience that I agree with my dad on this one. I won't let anybody get away with "I'll just follow you." I print them a map. :-)

2 vans might work if necessary, but it would increase the expense and spread our adult leadership somewhat more thinly. I really hope that the aunt with the CDL is willing to come!

-Liz

I've never had a traffic ticket, but I've also never heard of anybody being offered a class to get rid of a ticket in Oregon. I know my husband got a ticket last year (his first since he's lived in this state) and they certainly didn't give him that option. I remember him mentioning it from when he lived in California. *shrug*

-Liz

Ok, I did not know that it was state law in CA. It is NOT the law here in Oregon.

A 15 passenger van is within the limits of the G2SS everywhere else, so I thought it was just a rule for the rental agency. In fact, this is what they told me: "It's an insurance thing." If she'd told me it was state law, I wouldn't have thought to be annoyed with them about it. (Annoyed with the state of CA, maybe...)

In order to get the Class-B here in Oregon, it would require someone to be willing to fork out $150 or so, in addition to studying for and taking the behind-the-wheel test.

The camp does not have a vehicle; I've already checked.

One of the scouts has an aunt who has a CDL; she drives for our local public transit system. It turns out that she's actually interested in going along on this trip, so that might solve the problem for us. Doing the paperwork to let her drive for the troop and getting her on the tour permit is a very minor issue.

I appreciate the other suggestions from wingnut, but I've pretty much called everyone I can find phone numbers for, and either people can't help or everything is beyond our price reach. I think I'll put my energy toward recruiting the one scout's aunt, and if that fails I guess I'll start saving up for my CDL and try to find someone willing to loan me a bus to take the test with.

-Liz

Can I just vent for a minute?

Of course, if anybody has any suggestions, I would be thrilled to hear them.

I am planning to take a group of boys to Sacramento on the Coast Starlight in the spring. We can hike from the Amtrak station to Camp Pollock, where we'll stay for a couple of nights. The problem I have is, in order to catch the train back home, we need to get back to the train station at around 11:00 PM.

We will probably send a parent down with a pickup-truck and a small trailer to take the majority of the camping gear. Since it is inadvisable to walk around in downtown Sacramento after dark, I was planning to rent a van to get the kids from the camp to the train station... maybe even rent it for the whole final day so we could go visit Big Trees or something.

Now, the problem...

The only place that rents anything larger than a 7-passenger mini-van in Sacramento is Enterprise.

Enterprise requires that anybody renting a 15-passenger van (or anything bigger than a mini-van) *for not-for-profit groups* have a Class B driver's license.

Of course, I can always go rent the van and just tell them it's for personal/family use, but that would not be honest.

I have called every freaking auto rental place in the entire Sacramento area, and nobody else rents passenger vans.

The only bus charters one can get in Sacramento are full-sized school busses -- overkill to say the least, and well out of our price range unless we have at least 25 people going (which is unlikely).

Other cities have options for van rentals or smaller bus charters. But not Sacramento. Why???

So... unless one of our parents has a Class B Commercial driver's license, we're really going to be out of luck. As far as I can tell, the only other option is to hike to the train station and make all the boys hang out inside the station from the time it gets dark until the train gets there at midnight... and that's IF it's on time!!!!!

*sigh*

Any other ideas?

-Liz