Lisabob

I too know some wonderful scouters who no longer have, or never had, sons in the program. Some of them weren't even scouts themselves in their youth. But then again, I've met those folks that fotoscout describes too! They're the ones who seem to stay because they don't know what else to do with themselves in life (?) and they can become a real stumbling block. They're the ones who are forever grumbling about how it wasn't like this back in the good old days! They're the ones who still can't wrap their head around certain fundamental changes in society (like the fact that women can be scout leaders too). They're the ones that are always yelling at the kids, and that sow trouble among adults. They're the ones who monopolize committee meetings with endless harangues. And sometimes they're the ones who hold themselves to be the world's greatest authority on absolutely everything, yet can't be bothered to learn to use new technology, which is apparently beneath them, as is the idea of going to training, or refreshing one's training. They're easily offended, have a tendency to strike back when they perceive they've been slighted, and are more exhausting to manage than a group of hormonal 13 year olds. Yeah, I think anybody who has been in scouting long enough has met a few of these folks. Getting them to leave is almost as tough as getting them to be productive team members! But, to be fair, I've met some of these types who DO have kids in the program, too. The only good news there is, these folks usually leave when their kid leaves.

I've been working with a bunch of boys on this badge and several watched the Great Escape. They all loved it. These were guys ages 13-17. But there are A LOT of great movies for this badge. I have a whole list, developed with input from the boys (they're more current than I am, but they seem to like having ideas about "older" movies they've never heard of tossed in there too). Many of the ones on my list are PG. PM me if you want me to forward it to you.

Well my meeting with the potential CO got postponed indefinitely (sigh) but thanks for helping me develop a better sense of the types of issues/questions that I might expect. I'm sure this is going to come up again later in the year.

"Maybe the thing do do is read him the lit where it says you have to be a first class." The thing is, I'm not sure that the lit actually says this? I may be wrong but I believe all it says is that it is preferable to be 1st Cl, not that it is required. (But I understand the sentiment here.) Boys of the age you're talking about sometimes mature a lot over a summer. Hopefully the new DL, the SM, and the boy can sit down and map out a concrete plan for how this will work this year, and it will all come to fruition. Include specific tasks that take place at every meeting (like, do an opening game) so that he has something concrete to focus on preparing for. I'm not sure where the CM comes into this, as a den chief ought to be helping with a specific den - not under the CM's watch.

BW, you'll note that I wasn't arguing for girls to earn Eagle. What I was saying is that if mere BSA membership were the common thread, then we run into some logical problems with various types of BSA members who none the less are ineligible for Eagle. I understand your point about the continuum but then we also ought to see things working in the other direction, where boys can be part of a troop and still earn venturing awards through the troop too. Yet that does not occur (nor should it, in my humble opinion).

Fscouter, I disagree and am sorry to see you post statements to that effect, which only serve to discourage posters from free-flowing discussion - especially cub leaders and new posters, who often have the most questions and would benefit most from the expertise of many long-time posters on this board. Let's keep in mind that many cub leaders (and I was among this group when I started as a cub leader) don't have the depth of knowledge or experience with scouting that some on this board have. Nor are newer leaders always certain about where the "final word" comes from. It is one thing to have a book, another to know whether that book is really the definitive source, especially given the plethora of (sometimes confusing/conflicting) BSA sources out there. Training isn't always what it should be either, even for those who attend faithfully and try to learn to locate scouting's "true north." Just take a look at some of the whoppers people "learn" in training, over in the urban legends thread! As a leader with less than several decades of scouting under my belt, I am certain that I have asked what seemed like some fairly basic questions at times. I know that I always appreciated a friendly, courteous, and kind answer, as opposed to people who were snooty enough to call my queries "silly." I think we can do better than that here.

I think mere BSA membership is too low a bar, Scott. Tiger Cubs, Explorers, adult Scouters, and female Venturing Crew members are all BSA members too! Yet none of them (explorers? I'm really not sure there anymore) can earn Eagle, nor should they necessarily be able to do so. On one hand I suppose it is a way to encourage boys to remain dual-registered and active in Boy Scouting, to tell them that they can keep working toward Boy Scout advancement while also getting involved with older-youth programming. On the other hand, when they're not even dual-registered, I can't make sense of it. And I say this as a parent of a 14 year old, 1st Class scout who may opt to drop his troop affiliation and join a crew in the foreseeable future. Eagle is a great goal and very meaningful, but it is a Boy Scout award! It seems kind of illogical to earn it outside of the boy scout program.

I didn't want to hijack acco's thread but this has been bugging me a bit. Why should a boy who is no longer registered in a troop be able to continue boy scout advancement via a crew instead? I'm not talking about the cynical (though likely true) explanation of simply wanting to retain members any way we can. I'm talking about programmatic logic. How does it make sense for a boy to earn boy scout awards when he is not even a boy scout any more? For that matter, why should a POR that is not with the troop in any way, count toward boy scout advancement, even for a boy who is dual-registered in a troop and crew? Don't get me wrong, I think Venturing looks like a great program. I just don't get the underlying logic here. It looks like a cheap dodge for boys who want rank advancement but can't be bothered with a troop anymore.

Getting people to change traditions is really tough so you may face some initial reluctance to dump dinner - but, if you can do it, I agree! Regarding cheap/easy, we used to do a "macho man" cake bake competition. The boy and his parent (we specified dad or male relative/family friend - anybody but Mom and Grandma!) were challenged to make a cake and decorate it in some theme, using only edible items. It is amazing what kids can do with pretzels and gum drops! A few people would buy a cake from the grocery store but most did make their own. That was a whole lot of fun, and of course it provided dessert for the entire group too. If you can't get rid of dinner, and even if you stick with the ham (I agree about the canned potato - yuck!) you can still coordinate a bit better. When we did dinners, we assigned each den some type of item to bring. Give the Tigers the easiest things. We also had the boys make the decorations, place mats, etc. in their dens during the month or so prior to B&G. Add a few balloons and you're ready for a party! (I've never heard of the boys whittling their utensils though - what about the parents/guests? Personally that doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy, but maybe you have a way of making it work.)

I'll be talking with the head of a local service organization. Several of their members also happen to have an interest in aviation and have looked for ways to share their interest with older youth. I've heard they'd considered a possible explorer post in the past (didn't happen though) and now they're interested in being the CO for a venturing crew. They don't know much about BSA in recent years (decades?) and they are unfamiliar with venturing. I've been asked to meet with them to help them understand venturing and where a potential crew that they may charter would fit into the venturing puzzle.

How about some type of scouting pen pal arrangement? It doesn't necessarily have to be all writing (which doesn't appeal to many boys that age). It could be sending your brother scouts elsewhere a package one month, tracking the progress of a den bear around the country via postcards another month, etc.. Or how about adopting a group of soldiers? Send them a monthly package, photos, cards, doo-dads you make, etc.

Hi folks, Looking for some input here. I have what amounts to a sales call coming up this week to possibly get a venturing crew going. The group that is looking to be the CO has no previous connection to scouting in the area and they have told us they "might" like to charter a crew but they're on the fence, pending our visit. We have the start up kit. We have some BSA literature, both general lit and venturing-specific. What I'd like to know, from those with experience, is this: what sorts of questions should I expect to field? I expect I'll be doing most of the talking because our DE is new and has no experience with this. I've not personally brought a brand new CO into the fold before - this was the job of our former (very good, unfortunately retired) DE and I just helped get the volunteer side of things set up. So, please help me develop a list of realistic questions that I can expect, so that I can prepare to answer them. Note that I don't really want to veer off into "Issues & Politics" forum territory here - those questions, I doubt that I will get but if I do, I feel confident I can answer them. And thank you.

That routine is such a classic! I think you could have a lot of fun with that at a cub meeting. Look we can complain all day long about how "kids these days" don't know this stuff, OR we can start re-introducing it to them in fun ways. I'm going with the latter approach myself. How about you?

Sorry about that! I really can read but apparently didn't read too closely the first time around. If in fact this actually IS a council rule (which I seriously doubt), then it is one worth changing ASAP because it is totally against the point of the current webelos program. I think this individual was just blowing smoke at you.

Me too! Barber of Seville & Marriage of Figaro still bring Bugs Bunny to mind. Fantasia is a lot of fun too.

Acco, I recommend you contact your district membership chair and your DE to let them know of your concerns, and the conditions under which you think it would work better to start a new crew. In my (nearby) council there is currently a renewed focus on starting venturing crews, and as membership chair for my district I'm supportive of that. However, I would try to talk down any group that was attempting what you describe, and I would ask my DE to do the same. What you are describing is highly likely to result in conflict between 2 scouting units to the detriment of both. Even purely from a membership perspective, that is not desirable. Regarding advancement, my understanding (though I freely admit I'm not an expert in this and am open to correction) is that while Boy Scout advancement may be signed off within the Crew (for boys 1st Cl and above), I have never heard that Venturing recognitions may be signed off by troop SMs. Of course you probably also know that advancement is not one of the methods of venturing.

Same here. Teenage son listens to classical music to relax him when he's feeling stressed out. Of course he also listens to really bad thrasher metal...

There is talk of trying to get it started here although the Hispanic community is very small. A local soccer club director asked us about it but I think it was more out of curiosity than serious interest in starting up the program. I wonder what does it include other than playing soccer, which the kids are already doing? And what about girls? All the local rec leagues are co-ed and I am not certain how you could have a team where the boys were eligible to join this program but not their female team mates. I too would like to hear about how it is actually working out elsewhere.

Dunno there GW & Eamonn, my teen son and most of his friends read like crazy, and no, not just junk either. There are plenty of kids who don't read much, but I'm not convinced that this is truly different than any other generation. I love books, can't imagine life without books, but I know not many of my classmates felt that way back when I was a teen. I tend to think this is one of those "kids these days" bits. About brussels sprouts, they're not half bad if you dress them up with a decent vinaigrette! For kids you just have to find the way to hook them, you know, like a "game with a purpose."

Perhaps you have heard of Heifer International (if not, they're a great nonprofit and you can check them out here: http://www.heifer.org ) Heifer addresses the issues of extreme poverty and hunger by helping to build sustainable agricultural communities. According to their website they operate in 53 countries around the world where poverty is an issue - and in 28 states in the US. US Census statistics from 2006 show that approximately 12% of Americans lived below the official poverty line that year, in the richest country in the world. The percentage of people officially in poverty in the US is higher than that for every single minority group the government tracks. Yes, there is poverty in America. I'm betting it isn't that far from you, but it is easy not to see it.

Total baloney. Can we add this to our list of urban legends? One of several things may be going on here. First, the troop person who asserted this may mean well and just got it wrong. Second, he or she really may not like having webelos camp with the troop (it can be a challenge sometimes to have lots of new people and younger kids in tow) and so made this up to discourage joint activities. Third, they may have heard something like this somewhere else and believe it to be true, although it is not. Of course this troop is not required to invite webelos to camp with them (ever, let alone more than once). In that case though, I think I'd be looking at some other troops to join.

TheScout, I am only guessing here. But my guess is that you grew up in a reasonably safe suburban area where there were sidewalks to walk on or safe streets to ride your bike on, as you delivered your papers. I'm guessing you weren't afraid to approach any of your customers' houses for fear of intruding into some violent or illegal activity. I'm guessing that most of the time, your customers had the extra cash to pay their bill for the paper, and maybe they even tipped you a little at Christmas time. I'm guessing you seldom had to worry about being robbed of your weekly paper money on the way home after you went round collecting the payments that week. That mirrors many kids' experiences in working class and middle class neighborhoods. It does NOT mirror economic or other daily realities in truly poor areas. To suppose it does is, I'm sorry to say, rather naive. Try that in some of these inner city neighborhoods where scouting has no presence but plenty of good kids would probably join if given half the chance, and see how long you'd last. Plenty of parents in these kinds of neighborhoods would not dream of letting their 11 year old do what you describe because it is dangerous! Or try that in some very rural areas where there are all of about 5 houses in a mile, no sidewalks, and it would take you a heck of a long time to deliver your 60 daily papers on foot or on a bike.

I think that's a pretty tall order to hand to a bunch of 11 and 12 year old kids who want to become boy scouts, TheScout. Thinking about the equipment (both personal and patrol/troop) that a typical troop might use on a camp out, costs mount quickly. Tents, wood tools, maybe a propane light or two, cooking gear, appropriate sleeping bags and outdoor clothing, flashlight, compass, etc. I'm not talking about the high end gear here, but just serviceable gear so that low income kids can have a decent experience not unlike any other scouts would have. Not to mention food, transportation/travel, and site use fees. Although some of this can be forgone and some can be substituted with cheaper materials, there is a limit to this and it is easy for sticker shock to occur pretty quickly. If you want to start up a troop in a low income area one of the first things parents of prospective new members are going to ask is, how do we pay for all of this? Telling them that they not only have to find ways to pay for their child's personal material (fund raising or not) but also that the kids will be expected to raise sufficient money to buy the bigger ticket troop gear, is rather unrealistic and will almost certainly guarantee failure. Let's keep in mind too, that when we're talking about low income families, we're often talking about single parents, parents working multiple low-wage jobs with inflexible schedules, and neighborhoods where you wouldn't want your kid going out without an adult to attempt to fundraise. If we're talking about poor rural communities, distance becomes an issue for kids attempting to fundraise without significant adult help. So if the burden is going to be met entirely by fundraising, again we need to recognize that this puts a great deal of pressure on the child's parent(s) to assist with that. That's reality in the leafy suburbs too, but middle class families often have more control over their schedules and more personal resources (not just financial either) to help their child with fundraising. The question here is, what's the goal? If the goal is to provide the many benefits of scouting to youth who are traditionally under-served, then a very little support may go a long way toward helping get these units started up and on solid footing so that they can sustain themselves. On the other hand, if the goal is to blame a bunch of young kids for not being able to haul themselves out of poverty sufficiently to afford the things that scouts do, well hey, you'll certainly be able to point to your "success" there.

Sure, TheScout, but it is really much harder to fundraise in low income neighborhoods where few people have the extra cash to donate. Particularly in many urban settings, economic segregation is a fact of life in this country today. And although it is always possible for scouts to leave their communities to do their fundraising, this is a much more challenging endeavor and raises other worries (transportation, safety, turf issues with other units already in those other communities, etc.).

I don't see why you could not do this. To me, anything "trek" related probably includes more than one day. That is solely my interpretation based on personal experience - but what you describe sounds entirely reasonable for cubs.