Lisabob

See this story - maybe this fellow was a boy scout? http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/04/09/solar.oven.global.warming/index.html

Our guys have a limit of $11/scout. Personally I prefer FScouter's approach, but that's not worth wrangling over at this point. I do think the budget needs to be known in advance so some parent doesn't get stuck with a ridiculous food bill out of the blue (as per gwd's comment!). Sometimes boys don't quite understand the operating constraints on family budgets and won't realize that if they want steak/lobster (or whatever), THEY had better expect to pay for it and not their parents.

Reason to quit - get sick of dealing with nut cases like we've seen in some other recent threads. I had one lady who used to call me every couple of weeks and leave LONG, SHOUTING messages on my answering machine about how awful we were to her kids (who were, of course, little angels). When I set a shorter time on the message tape so as to cut back on her rants, she switched to sending me lengthy emails, all in caps of course, about the horrible things we were perpetrating on her children. And then she'd call me day and night to see whether I'd received her emails. Needless to say, she never helped run things and could not be counted on to follow through on anything at all. Her boys will likely get Eagle though, and I sure hope I'm not asked to sit on their BORs because they're both rude, arrogant, inconsiderate individuals, and bullies too. She (and others like her) were a major factor that contributed to my desire to be done with cubs and all the stupid drama that goes with it.

What is your relation to this troop? If you are an adult in the troop or if you are on the district advancement team, or if you are the unit commissioner assigned to that troop, or if you are part of the charter org. for the troop, or if you are the parent of a boy in the troop then you have a legit reason to pursue the issue. How you pursue it, or to what degree, may depend on a bunch of other things, but at least you have "standing," so to speak. If you are none of those, then you run the risk of being viewed as a nosy outsider looking to cause trouble where none is warranted. You're right that the troop is not following current rules and for that reason alone, probably ought to stop it. But there may be a laundry list of other, more pressing, priorities for folks to concentrate on dealing with first.

My sister's blueberry or peach pie (or both, what the heck)

We have one guy in our adult leadership who is big on long lectures, often delivered in high decibel, and frequently going back to various points in the Law and Oath. The kids ignore him. He means well, is often basically right, but man, when he gets going on a rant, the boys have all they can manage not to roll their eyes and walk away. Watching their body language, it is clear that they are simply enduring, not absorbing a word he is saying. Yes BSA is a "camping club." That's part of the allure for most of the boys I know. There's nothing keeping us from incorporating values lessons into that experience in a more subtle (and hopefully more useful) way than the above though.

Man oh man. Free speech. Yes, you have that. You have the right to say a wide variety of things, some of which may cause you to look like an idiot. But you do have that right. Never mind that you don't know what you're talking about. Somehow I don't believe you are a long-time scouter as you claim, because if you were, you'd know a couple of things about how scouting is organized that you seem to be oblivious to. If you don't like fundraising, don't do it. Nobody's forcing you and certainly not the BSA.

Our troop has been to Pamlico and had a pretty good experience. We'd go back again. Here's a list I found of high adventure bases operated by councils. I see that Pamlico is on there. http://www.texasskiesdistrict.org/HighAdventureBSACamps.pdf

Given what you wrote highcountry, it seems unlikely that this kid will get around to finishing the remaining requirements in time. After I read your previous post though, I was left with the distinct impression that if this kid somehow did suddenly pull it together, that you would do all you could to delay him from getting the signatures until too late anyway. If that isn't the case then I'm glad. But so what? So this kid probably doesn't finish his eagle requirements. Why is this so frustrating to YOU? It isn't YOUR rank, it is HIS. You have had clear conversations with him letting him know what he needs to do if he plans to go for Eagle. Now sit back and let him either do it, or not do it! If he does, great. If he doesn't, well aging out at Life rank is nothing to sneeze at either. He'll have had six or seven YEARS of boy scouting experience - not an inconsequential amount of time in the life of a boy - and one hopes that he'll carry many good memories of scouting and the lessons he learned right on into adulthood.

***waving my hand***

highcountry wrote: "His parents can sometimes be butt heads so he is not only going to get a refusal from me and all the ASM's to sign scout spirit and scoutmaster conference, he is going to get delays on SM sign off on any eagle project, delays and rework requests from merit Coordinator for any partials and other delays until he is 18." Yup I can tell you are frustrated! Do you really intend to construct fake barriers for this kid because his parents are "butt heads?" Poor kid, clearly he chose the wrong parents.

My experience with press ganging is pretty much exactly as Eamonn describes. Both in scout units and in other volunteer situations, it often happens that a person who is not well-suited to the job ends up with it in those circumstances, and then the problem becomes "managing" them until their time is up/they decide to leave (they never seem to fade away gracefully and quickly), or worse yet, figuring out how to get rid of them and replace them with someone else. Many potentially good members/leaders/volunteers/parents will have been driven away by that person's poor performance, in the meantime. Of those who stay, they will be twice as unlikely to succumb to that style of leadership selection as before. Regarding the parent described in the original post - if he really had no particular role as some sort of leader with the pack and he just showed up (without his kid), I think I'd guide him toward the CC or CM for a quiet little conversation. If it is the case that is just a little over-enthused about being involved (again? perhaps he was a scout as a youth?), then hand him an adult app and tap into his enthusiasm. On the other hand if he's creepy and weird, then the CC/CM can set some boundaries for him.

Yes I think he should ask for their explanation of a "no" vote in writing. Others have pointed out that this special committee meeting isn't found in the appeals procedure for an EBOR anyway, so this doesn't fit perfectly, but he can point out to the committee that at other ranks the BOR is obligated to provide a letter to the scout explaining their denial of rank. So there is some sort of precedent for written documentation. He is going along with the troop's "special procedure" as a last-gasp, good-faith effort to be respectful of his troop leaders; the very least the committee can do is provide him with formal feedback. Whether they agree to provide that letter or not though, if he is denied by the troop committee, it is time to immediately return to the district folks (the very next morning) to politely insist on an appeal. Don't wait for the letter to show up, even if they promise they'll get it to him in a couple of days. Who knows how long that will actually take them. In fact, if I were you I'd make sure that the district advancement chair and the Field Director, to whom you spoke today, are aware of this "special meeting" before it even happens. I don't think you'd be out of order to provide them copies of the emails sent to your son by the committee chair, right now. You want them to be on top of the story all the way, rather than having to catch them up to speed on April 14th, at which point your son has only 4 weeks left to get this resolved. Further, they might quietly bring some pressure to bear on the troop leaders in advance of this 4/13 meeting, and who knows? Maybe the troop will relent. Not likely, but always possible. Edited to add: The part about the Eagle Adviser not mailing the letters of rec has left me wondering. Make sure your son has independently lined up people to write letters of rec on very short notice - that way, if Eagle Adviser tries to institute further delays, your son can work around him. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

OK I know that this is a tangent and a pet peeve to boot, but they are not DemocratEs. They are Democrats. No "E" in there. As for suggesting that any president would WANT this sort of a situation? C'mon Barry, that is a low blow. I do not think any patriotic individual wishes massive economic dislocation, loss of manufacturing base, and political fall-out from the above, upon his or her own country. I don't think Bush wanted it. I don't think Obama wanted it. It is one thing to disagree (vehemently, even) with how the crisis is being handled. It is another to suggest Obama is somehow rubbing his hands in glee.

Ban on Flashlight Tag?? Hmm? I'm not sure what you are referring to there but to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a National BSA ban on flashlight tag.

OK thanks for the clarification on what, exactly, can be appealed. mdsummer, keep us posted, would you? Lots of people here are rooting for your son.

And if they can't read beyond the first post then...??? Sorry, I don't see a need to lock it. The posts themselves indicate that it is a joke. RichardB from Irving, thank you for your input. Now, would you please pass along the word to my regional folks (That would be Central) that it really is problematic when they routinely take literally months to approve (correctly-completed, accurate, unproblematic) national tour permit apps? That would be an excellent use of National BSA resources if some sort of change could be effected there.

My counselor was also my troop guide. Didn't work out that way for everyone though.

Actually it might be pretty darned funny if we all started inundating regional offices like this! Well anyway, in my region. Maybe they'd figure out that they don't exist in a vacuum, and actually start providing timely service to those of us who live out here in Central-land. (probably not though)

It is not uncommon for the Scoutmaster to reserve the right to sign off on scout spirit for himself, especially at higher ranks. This is frequently done to ensure that some boy who is not doing so well with the scout oath and law, doesn't do an end-run around the SM and find the most compliant/clueless person available to sign his book. It also allows for a stronger mentoring relationship to develop between SM and scout (when used properly). You're probably right that this special committee session won't yield positive results. Make sure your son knows how important it is to keep his cool and that he can politely, pro-actively, and articulately discuss how he demonstrates scout spirit in his daily life. He should (calmly, politely) put the burden on the committee to give him a specific set of reasons why they don't think he has met this requirement, along with their views on if/how he could QUICKLY fix that. My question to the others: If the boy does not have a sign off for scout spirit, can he appeal that to the district/council? I thought the appeal process was only for the SM conference signature and not for scout spirit? If "scout spirit" cannot be appealed and the SM doesn't want to budge because he does not believe the boy is "Eagle material" then what? At that point, is arm twisting from higher up the chain the only option?

Perhaps this was an April Fools Joke? I can only hope. My region takes anywhere from 4 weeks to 4 months to return just the national permits! Imagine if we had to turn in all our local permits through them! (Actually, if they really want to play that game then good, let's play. We'll start submitting tour permits for every little thing. See how long before they change their tune!) ETA - Your link doesn't work. This one has a bit of an odd odor to it.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

Hi there, I can't say for sure whether this is the norm, but my meetings with my WB Counselor were very low key. They were a chance for me to do a little bragging about all that I'd done as I worked my ticket thus far, and to discuss any course corrections that might come up too. Think of it as a bit of show & tell and a friendly chat. Nothing to be nervous about!

Charter Organization Representative. Your son's troop is "owned" or "sponsored" by some group, usually a non-profit org like a church or service club (elks, american legion, etc.). The person from that organization who serves as a liaison between troop and organization is the COR. Depending on the relationship between your troop and the charter org., this might be a good person to talk with but in all honesty, it is not where I'd go first (or second, or third...) in most cases. Many Charter Orgs barely know they have a troop and most do not know very much at all about how a troop operates. They are highly unlikely to be familiar with the finer details of BSA advancement policies. While Charter orgs technically select troop leadership (I say technically because many are extremely hands-off about this process), in many cases they exhibit a strong preference for the status quo because either a) they chose that leader or b) they don't want to be bothered/don't know very much about the troop. There are Charter Orgs out there who are active, aware, and helpful, but unless you KNOW that to be the case for you, I would advice going through the other routes already suggested to you instead. Maybe, once things have settled a bit and your son's immediate issues have been addressed, then it could be time to go to the troop's charter org. and politely explain to them the nature of the problems with the adults they have chosen to run their troop.

OK Neal, I went to scoutstuff.org and priced an adult-sized uniform (many boy scouts can't fit into the cheaper youth sizes by the time they're 13 or so) with all required items/patches and a boy scout handbook. Total price came to $159.09 (not including shipping). Shirt and pants were $49.99 each, accounting for the bulk of the cost. Admittedly that's using the supplex shirt and switchback pants instead of the cotton shirt and canvas pants, which are a bit cheaper (but less functional). I could save $20-30 by purchasing the cotton/canvas versions. So - we're asking brand new boy scouting families to drop $130-$160 just on basic clothes & a book. Ouch.

My son's troop is one where it is very unusual for a boy to earn Eagle before he is 16. Most of the guys earn Eagle at 17, if at all. We do have guys who leave the program or become markedly less active at 15-16, but many stay right through to their 18th birthday whether they are Eagles or not. Just had 4 more age out in the last few weeks, 2 as (brand new) Eagles, 2 as Life. It is not the case that his troop puts up road blocks. If anything, I think we make it too easy sometimes, not holding the bar high enough (in early ranks on some skills, in later ranks on leadership and scout spirit). It *is* the case that the troop has simply de-emphasized group advancement efforts. Merit badge sessions during troop meetings are practically non-existent. Camp outs may have merit badge opportunities built in, but they're not shoved down anybody's throats. I don't think there has ever been a troop camp out where a boy could complete all requirements for a MB all in one weekend. We no longer promote our council's Merit Badge University. Skill requirements for T-2-1 are taught fairly regularly, but it is the boy's responsibility to get the sign off. At summer camp, boys do take MBs (and sometimes, to my great distaste, the older boys do the "classroom" E-R badges there just to get them over with), but if they leave some time free to do other stuff, or if they sign up purely for non-required/"fun" badges like canoeing or archery, nobody is going to stop them. And if they have a fist full of partials nobody follows them around to ensure they finish, either (sometimes I almost wish they would! My son probably has 10 partials at any given time, which - I admit - irks me from time to time). We have Eagle advisers. They don't follow boys around and hound them. They might nudge a boy from time to time but the onus is on the boy to contact them, to follow through on his own. Result: we have many boys who make Star fairly early, say 12-early 13. We have some boys who cruise right on to Life pretty early too, but most rest for a while at Star and hit Life around 14-15 or later. Those who hit Life early (say, 13) tend to stay there for a while too. In my 4 years with the troop there has been 1 13 year old Eagle (who stopped attending shortly thereafter), 1 14 year old Eagle (who left to go to boarding school shortly thereafter), and 1 15 year old Eagle (who stayed around for another year or so until his 13 year old brother made Eagle, and then they were both gone). So it isn't impossible, but it is pretty unusual. And I'm ok with that.