Lisabob

Welcome to the forum trailblazermom. First off, sorry to hear that day camp has been a bust for you and your boys. That's really too bad because, done right, it can be a fabulous introduction to the fun the boys (and you) will have with cub scouting. Still, it would be good to keep in mind that cub day camp is almost always run entirely by volunteers, and sometimes people are drafted at the last minute. I have a fair number of years of experience with cub day camps and I admit I have rarely seen a parent meeting or den leader meeting occur at the start. Generally there is some sort of written plan, which more-or-less gets followed, but that's about it. Additionally, at least the way I've seen it done, most of the people staffing different activities are pack leaders and/or "just" parents. There is not usually a formal staff training for these folks - they run their station and unless there's a big problem, the day camp director more or less leaves them alone. Not great, I know, but also pretty typical. It may be that some of these folks running some of the stations do not fully agree on disciplinary measures, or do not grasp the basics of scouting. Personally (as a former range master for archery at cub day camp) if a pack leader told me that a boy was "sitting out" my session, I'd have honored that, though reluctantly in some cases. While I only saw the kids for an hour or so, the pack leaders know them (hopefully) much better than that and should therefore be trusted to make the best decision about discipline in most cases. (I always reserve the right to remove a person - boy or adult - from MY range for safety reasons, though I rarely have had to do so.) As for breakfast and snacks? I never expected day camp to provide breakfast! Did they say they would in their promo literature? Did you pay for it? If so, you have a legitimate complaint. If not, why would anyone expect this? Snacks, well a bag of chips would not have been my choice. But then, we always, always tell leaders (in our written info) to bring their own lunches and snacks. I hope you and your boys will give cub scouts day camp another shot in the future because it can really be a lot of fun. Maybe next year you'd be interested in helping plan the event in order to improve upon some of the weaknesses you mention - it sounds like that would be a welcome improvement.

I don't know Brent, maybe it was a local addition, but when I did Risk Zone training the first time (about 4 years ago) I remember them talking very clearly about the drive home. In fact we watched a movie where I am pretty sure they said something about pulling over and sleeping a couple of hours if need be. Not that I think very many people would actually follow that advice, mind you (a whole different problem)

Let's be careful here. A lot of what has been said so far is along the lines of boy leadership being a messy beast (which is true), the transition from great cub leader to new boy scout leader being difficult for a lot of us (which is also true), and the need to sit back and take some time before reaching any decisions (again, great advice). I admit I said some of the same things in my response, and also that in retrospect, I appreciate that several people gave me that same advice when my son joined the troop. But, several things It's Me writes suggest to me that there is more going on here than just the general chaos of a typical boy scout troop. For example, the SM not sharing whatever plans may exist for a camp out with his ASMs? Routinely leaving for camp outs 1-2 hours late? Driving 3+ hours in each direction for a one night camp out, more than once in a great while? All of these would bother me a whole lot because they suggest that there is a lack of planning, a lack of communication, a lack of consideration for the parents, or some combination of all three factors. Parents, even those who are former Webelos Den Leaders who love Scouting, will only put up with so much aggravation of this sort before they give up on a troop (or worse, on the whole program). "Sit back and wait until you see the whole picture" can certainly be valuable advice but it shouldn't necessarily be the only piece of advice for a frustrated new boy scout parent, or we risk downplaying some very legitimate concerns.

Don, it might be from the first couple of years that WB for the 21st C. was offered. There have been a few tweaks to the basic program over that time. I took the course in 2003 and I believe the staff changed shoulder loops as they/we "progressed" from cubs to boy scouts at the time. Personally I think the whole loop thing is silly. Let the participants and staffers wear the loops that match the positions they actually hold and stop with the games, would be my advice. It has little impact on the actual content of the program or on its delivery and just serves as a (slightly weird) distraction, IMO. But I'm sure others will disagree.

Hunt mentions this as something that scouts generally decide: "where the next campout will be" Not to get off on too much of a tangent (someone can spin off if they desire), but to what extent is this something your scouts actually decide? What I've seen happen is mostly that the scouts decide WHAT they want to do and then the adults find appropriate places for them to do it. When I've asked about this, I've been told that this is support/background work and not really part of boy leadership, and/or that, logistically speaking, there are few options in the area so it is less a matter of adult preference than feasibility anyway. I'm just curious here.

It's Me's post brought up something I have seen quite a few times in the last several years: Eagle Scouts who ought to know better, doing a poor job of leading a scout unit. Two trends seem to come to light here. First, I've seen quite a few units where the Eagle-Leader is pushy, bossy, and (ahem) never-wrong-about-anything. They pull out their "I'm an Eagle Scout so I know..." card whenever they are challenged, especially by someone who is not an Eagle Scout. There's just no reasoning with these folks. I've noticed this is especially problematic in Cub packs. Just because someone's an Eagle Scout doesn't mean they know the first thing about running a Cub pack - they may not even have been a Cub Scout. Second, I've seen some where the person may well be an Eagle Scout, but either they came from a troop that was playing by its own rules, or they have a rather distorted memory of "how things were done." Because they want to do the strangest things, usually justified by the phrase "but that's how MY troop did it, and I earned Eagle!" Along these lines it seems to me that some folks don't see the difference in roles between being a youth participant (even one who earns the highest rank) and being an adult leader. Please understand, I'm certainly not bashing Eagle Scouts. Even in the relatively short time I've been involved in Scouting as an adult, I've met some truly amazing and capable fellows of all ages, who are Eagles. I just think we need to be careful, as we select leaders for our packs, troops, crews, ships, and teams, that "Eagle" isn't the only, or even one of the most important, characteristics that we use in considering who will be a good leader.

Ah, I feel your pain. Our first year with my son's troop was a little like this, though in fact yours sounds much worse. And, being an organizer-type of person, it drove me crazy to the point where I almost pulled my son from the troop. After talking it through with my son we agreed to give it a full calendar year before making a decision. I'm glad we did that. These days, while there are things that irk me a little, he's happy and many of the most frustrating aspects have been improved upon so that I can manage to do this without wanting to scream every week. I don't know how much it will help, but here are a few things that you might consider: 1) It sounds like maybe you are part of a troop with a lot of young scouts (based on the fact that only 4 are at or above 1st Cl). Is the lack of structure, organization, and leadership a result of that? This isn't to say that it is acceptable, but sometimes it helps to look at the causes of problems to determine whether they're likely to get better over time (and whether you can stand it until then). 2) Maybe you need to have a sit-down with the SM and CC. Tell them what you've written here - that your son is having a great time, but the extreme lack of organization and lack of consideration for the adults/parents involved (as evidenced by the driving issue you mention, meetings starting so late, etc.) is causing YOU a problem. And you can't be the only one. Unhappy parents eventually pull their kids from the program in exasperation. 3) Ask them how you can work with them to alleviate these problems. Maybe they're desperate for help on this front and just don't know that you'd be a great resource for them. 4) If your SM and CC haven't been to training for their positions, maybe start publicizing upcoming training dates. At the very least, make sure they know how to access the online training segments, which aren't bad. If YOU haven't been to training for your position, bite the bullet and do it - and ask others from the troop to attend with you (even if they've done it before!). Even if the training session isn't wonderful, it gives you - and anyone else from your troop who participates - an excuse to get together and talk about scouting, how your troop functions, and what might be done better. 5) See if your council offers National Youth Leader Training over the summer. Next year's SPL and ASPL might benefit greatly from attending, which in turn may strengthen the entire youth leadership. 6) Suggest that the adults do a program review/thorns & roses type discussion at some point. We did something along these lines about a year after my son joined, with really good result in terms of building a common vision and a concrete strategy to achieve that vision. Of course, this may not be the way to go if you don't have a well regarded and fairly diplomatic person who is capable of running the show. Last thing you want is for this to disintegrate into a shouting match! 7) Be realistic about your level of involvement. There are basically two options. One is to become much more involved, if you think that doing so will a) alleviate some of the annoyance you are feeling and b) actually improve things for the troop. The other is to back way off, if you conclude that you just can't work with these folks without causing yourself far MORE stress, with no foreseeable pay off. In that case, if your son really wants to stay with the troop, you'll be the drop off parent. Sometimes that's not the worst thing, and there are other ways you can contribute to scouting outside of your son's troop if you so desire. 8) Is there likely to be change in the SM and/or CC positions anytime in the near future? Some troops rotate these every couple of years, giving you reason to expect some changes on the horizon, others keep the same person in the same job for life, or so it seems. (There's good and bad to both of course.) Just one other thought. How many of your son's friends are going to stay with scouting (or with this troop)? I've noticed that troops with a high chaos level and weak program as you are describing tend to lose a lot of first year scouts. So you might want to re-visit that issue of staying because his friends are all there. They may well not be there next year.

I've seen the scenario sst3rd describes happen. I wonder if it has to do with the degree to which a troop is active in OA, or the extent to which the Lodge has its act together? In the cases I've seen, it is a situation where people get voted in but very few follow up and even those that do, aren't active once they have gone through the process. Maybe because the Lodge tends not to be very visible/active. So, when voting, the boys in the troop have very little understanding of what OA is, or why it is important to choose carefully among potential new members. Consequently they may feel that it is just fine to vote for everyone who has the SM's approval.

er, ah, Barry, nothing quite like the gender stereotyping there in your last paragraph, hmm? I don't care what we call them - guns, tools, fire arms, weapons, shooting sticks, take your pick. When I did range master training, we were told that the BSA doesn't refer to them as weapons for the same reason that the BSA doesn't offer belt loops or merit badges for styles of martial arts that it deems to be aggressive in nature. Yeah ok, whatever. I've got bigger worries than which word we use here so I'll happily comply with the BSA preference and be on my way. Let's get to the basics of teaching kids to use these - things - in a responsible, safe, fun manner.

Thanks Eric, I appreciate the info. We'll be passing through on the way to somewhere else (not on a weekend) so I'm hopeful that it won't be as crowded.

Oops, Laura I missed this thread too and responded in the other one first. Sorry. It sounds like you are handling this pretty well.

Err... Laura, your SM is sleeping in a pop up camper and bringing his family with him? Has he been to training yet? If not, help him locate a training session pronto! If so, maybe you & previous SM can sit down with him and get him onto the straight and narrow. Glad to hear you no longer have a problem re: the daylight/darkness thing though.

Anybody been to this area? We're looking at a possible canoe trip with some 12-13 year old scouts. Any input you have would be welcome.

I am a bit ill at ease with it, but our troop policy is that the boys may not have these things at camp outs. They can have them in the car but the items get left in a locked car while at camp. If they happen to get damaged by the heat while in the car, or stolen, or broken, or lost, etc., that's the scout's problem. It is supposed to be up to the SPL to enforce this. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. The part that I'm ill at ease with is that there is no policy re: adults and nearly all have, carry, and use their cell phones whenever they feel the "need" - which in some cases is often. On one hand it seems like hypocrisy to me. On the other hand I'm not so dumb as to think that I could ever convince most of them to give the phones up, even for a few days, especially since I'm one of those rare few who do not own one to start with (and don't want one either). They all think I'm a little off my rocker on that issue as is.

I had an interesting conversation the other day with one of the SMs in town. He said that he felt it was time to think about starting a new troop in town, and that he and some of the other longtime Scouters whose sons have aged out of the program would be interested in doing just that over the next two-three years. Now I'm on the district membership committee and I had actually approached him with the idea of getting a venturing crew started, but I wasn't really thinking about a new troop. Right now in our town there are four troops. One is LDS only, which is very small in our area. The second is a small troop (10-15 members) that is always struggling to have enough active members to stay viable. The third - us - hovers around 35-45 boys pretty consistently. To my surprise, the fourth troop now has about 75 boys, up by at least 40 in the last two-three years. This last troop had gone through some leadership transition issues for a few years and now has a younger and very dynamic group of leaders involved. They had almost 30 new cross-overs join them this winter/spring. I don't know the LDS troop but the other three troops in town all provide a good program, though the small troop has canceled several outings for lack of adult leadership recently, as I've written about in other posts. Most of the recruiting for these troops comes straight from cub scouts and most of the 8 packs in town are thriving. Total size of this town is about 40,000. There are also 5-6 other solid, healthy troops and 10-15 other packs within about a 20 mile radius, drawing primarily from other school districts in the county. Ours is the fastest growing town in the fastest growing county (population) in the state but as a district we still serve under 10% of available boys in the boy scout age range. At the district level (based on county lines) last year we had a net loss of boy scouts. Given all that - how do you know when it is the right time to start up an additional troop? What are some likely indicators of success that you would want to see prior to beginning another troop in the same territory? If you break off leadership from an existing troop (or from 2 existing troops), how do you go about that without damaging those troops? What red flags should one be aware of in this endeavor? If you have experience you are willing to share, positive or negative, I'd appreciate it. Right now this is just an idea, nothing more, but if we are going to pursue it over the next couple of years, I want to see it done right.

Funny you should say that Gern. One of our scouts has been the webmaster for our district this year. I find I have more trouble getting adults to LET them do this sort of thing. But, you're correct of course, it does depend a lot on the personalities, interests, and skills of the youth in the program at any given time. And maybe it helps that the local school districts in this area all push web design in their tech classes, so quite a few boys know how to do this, and do it well. That might not be the case everywhere. Maybe what we ought to be doing is asking them to help us set up Facebook sites for the troop instead?

For troops and crews, you might also suggest that one of the scouts could be the webmaster, or at least, assist the webmaster. Half the time the youth understand this stuff better than the adults anyway (my son just finished a web design class at school), and this is just one more area where youth-led can be well implemented.

I'd say go with the basics. Most Scouters I've met do not know (or want to know) the technical stuff. They just want a simple, quick, and cheap or free way to put up a website for their unit. And most have no idea about what should/shouldn't go on the website as per BSA guidelines, or even that there are guidelines. It might not be a bad idea, though, also to have a couple of handouts either with a little info about the more technical side, or with some good sources for those interested in learning more. That way if you do get someone who is really gung ho, you have something for them too.

Scott - every time we do a fundraiser. Is it a hassle, sure, sometimes. But you know what, I have also seen that filing the required paperwork (both for tour permits and fundraisers) gives people pause to think about what they are doing, why, and whether it meets the requirements and guidelines. Paperwork, in and of itself, probably is not going to make an outing safer or a fundraiser more successful (or palatable). But if the process forces people to stop and think for just a moment then that's not a bad thing.

Guys I think we're being a little harsh without knowing the back story. Maybe this woman is just a royal pain in the neck. They certainly exist. In this case, it might be good to think about helping her move on. Maybe she just doesn't understand how the troop operates, and why something she fears is unsafe is actually not a problem. (example: maybe she fears that "boy led" means adults aren't paying any attention) In this case she needs some education about troop practices, along with possibly an invitation to attend the next district training session (not saying she should necessarily be an ASM, but if she's worried about outdoor safety and isn't very skilled, it might help her to do the training and learn so she can better judge what is, and is not, safe.) In this case, she could conceivably become your best ally down the road a bit. Maybe? This woman is rocking the boat for a really good reason. pmarius does say she is concerned about "lack of safety and discipline." Not withstanding that she is clearly not being very effective in how she raises these concerns, it is still possible that she has a very valid point. In this case, the existing leadership might need to get over themselves and pay attention to what she's upset about. Without knowing at least some background with regard to what sorts of behaviors she is upset about, it is hard to give good advice on how to handle the situation. Think of that one troop that posted here a while ago about how they go sod surfing. Yeah, if my kid were to join that troop and for some reason he stayed with that troop, I'd be raising a mighty big fuss about the sod surfing issue. They probably would view me as a difficult outsider. Maybe we're talking about other safety issues - older scouts driving younger scouts to camp outs in the back of a pick up truck? lack of YPT protections? failure to follow safety procedures with how they operate an axe yard? Who knows what?

I think Beavah gave you some good advice there, but it also depends a little on the substance of this woman's concerns. If she is concerned about basic safety issues as your post suggests, then it does not surprise me that she's not willing to work this out quietly, behind the scenes. Chances are that in her view, such an approach would be equivalent to nothing getting done about a potentially serious problem. She may also feel that the only way to get her point across to people is to be blunt/edgy/vocal (whatever adjective you prefer). Sometimes, when a group of people have been working together for a while and a new person comes in, it is hard for the group to accept or appreciate the new person's perspective and anything that new person says gets discounted. In such cases, the new person is either going to throw their hands up and say "forget it," or they're going to get more agitated and push harder - depending on their personality and how much they care. No doubt that the method this person has chosen is backfiring, based on your comments. But is it just that she's obnoxious (yep, we've all had a few of those folks around!)? Or does she have a point that is not being adequately addressed by the existing leadership?

I can understand how Mark might not have realized you are supposed to submit the national permit app so far in advance - these things happen and he's obviously following up to fix it. But to say "oh, you mean we needed a permit?" is just a little too much. Bottom line for me: "plausible deniability" might have worked (sort of) for various politicians but it is NOT what I expect of the people who are role models, mentors, and caretakers for my child.

" An unwed mother, working full time, dropping the kid at day care every day, and no father is not going to be a better choice than two adoptive parents, one of whom stays home raising the child. " Boy FScouter, you are making quite a few assumptions here, some of which strike me as not only offensive, but just a little weird. Who said that an adoptive family would consist of one working parent and one stay at home parent, anyway? That's the latest "Huh?" moment for me. And you apparently suppose, as well, that the biological mother has no social network (extended family, friends) to rely on for help while either your imaginary adoptive family does not need these, or has them aplenty? You do realize that not every 2 parent family is like Ward and June Cleaver, right? You know, as recently as the 1960s it was not uncommon for women in many jobs such as teaching, nursing, and others, to be fired if they were known to have become pregnant without being married. This held, in some cases, even if they gave the baby up for adoption or had (usually illegal) abortions. The shame and anguish that this undoubtedly produced for generations of women and their children is something that we are not better for, as a country. Yet I sense that you would be ok with returning to such a time and such a policy. At the end of the day I think acco is correct - the call here belongs to the CO, and there is no consensus within the scouting community.

Besides, the National Tour Permit doesn't ask for a list of drivers to verify that they all have the appropriate licensing and insurance. Mark, I'm confused. Here's a link to the form we use. On page 2 it does require that we list drivers with license #s, cars (with detailed info), and insurance. Did you not have to do that? http://www.scouting.org/forms/4419.pdf

Mark, I believe it is the regional, not national, office that gets your tour permit once you've submitted it to council. I suppose you could contact them but I have no idea whether it will work for you. As for online submission, we were told by our council that we HAD to submit it online. However, the online submission form has been down for quite some time, making this impossible. Yes, it is a hassle of sorts to list all drivers and cars. On the other hand, as a parent, I want to know for sure that whoever is driving has the appropriate licensing and insurance. In the process of doing the national tour permit for our own unit, we discovered that this was NOT necessarily the case for a couple of people. Good to know... So while I understand and am sympathetic to your comment, I'm willing to put up with the inconvenience on this. Good luck to you!