Lisabob

Not to get too side tracked but SA, Obama has been fighting charges of not being "black enough" for much of his political career. There are some who say that his wife - she and her family are well connected in the black middle and upper class communities of Chicago - is his best line of defense against that. But I admit I have to really wonder when a guy whose father is from Kenya is not considered "black enough!" As for McCain. Well let's see. Our current president admitted (prior to election) that he had an alcohol problem and had done cocaine in the past. Our previous president admitted (prior to election) that he had smoked certain illegal herbs but "didn't inhale." I'd like to think the one before that (George Sr) was made of sterner stuff than either of those two but who knows. So in comparison I think I'm ok with McCain's human weaknesses. And John - no fair putting Monica Lewinsky on Hillary's shoulders - Hillary is not the one who couldn't control herself in that situation.

How bad can 4 years be? Well think about where we were in 2000 and then fast forward 4 years. (Yes I know Bush wasn't to blame for everything bad, but he sure seemed to have bungled most of it.) Now imagine a different person in office - maybe one you liked better than Bush, whoever that might have been (McCain, Gore, Nader, Bush Sr., Bill Bradley, whoever you prefer). Of course at this point it is merely a "what if" game but I can't help feeling we'd have been in a very different place in 2004 with most other choices as president.

Welcome to the forums. Thanks for the service you give to your pack, and also for your level-headed approach to the situation you describe. A couple of questions/thoughts. 1) Has the new CM been through training for his position? If not, is he willing to attend training? If he hasn't done this yet but is willing then there is probably a bit of hope for him. If he hasn't and won't, then I think his days are numbered. And if he HAS gone through training then I am willing to still give him the benefit of the doubt and suppose it wasn't one of the better-run training sessions and therefore he just didn't get much from it. If training is in order for him, offer to help him find out when and where the next opportunity will be. Check around to see who is running this training. Maybe quietly clue in your district training staff that this fellow needs some friendly guided conversation over lunch at training day, to help him better understand the program. See if you can get many of the DLs to attend too (even if they have in the past) - as a group you might learn a lot, about the program and about working together as a team. 2) You mention having practically no committee. Is it possible that the CM is overwhelmed (and therefore dropping the ball) because he's really trying to do the job of the whole committee, PLUS being CM? If that's the case, well the poor fellow is probably really regretting allowing himself to be talked into being hte CM. In fact he may feel he was set up for failure. In this case the adult leaders with the help of the CO need to provide this guy with support in the form of a functional committee. It is not supposed to be the CM's job to plan all pack activities! If you can develop a real committee then you might also ask the district training folks if they would come to your unit and do a "committee challenge" training session (with or without the CM present, but I'd say with if possible). This training, if done well, helps the committee do a little team building in addition to learning their roles and responsibilities. 3) Why did this fellow agree to be CM? Was it because nobody else was willing? Did the CO twist his arm? Maybe this was never the job for him and he knows it. In that case you will all be happier if you can provide him a volunteer position that is a better fit with his skills and interests. Maybe he's a better den leader (though probably not, if he's reading 30 minutes of announcements at pack meetings!) or a better committee member in a more minor role. See if you can find him a way to make a graceful transition to a more suitable position if this fits. 4) Has anybody else sat down with him and talked about this? As you say he may not be happy with his own performance but just doesn't know how to get out of this uncomfortable hole he's in. A friendly conversation and quiet offer of mentoring (maybe a trusted adult from another scouting unit that has been successful, or your pack's unit commissioner, or a helpful member of the CO with experience in cubbing, or whoever) might be in order. Sometimes you have little choice but to take action and oust a really unsuitable leader. But from your posts it sounds more like this guy might just be overwhelmed, and has something to offer either once he has more support, or else in another less stressful position with the pack. It would be too bad for the group to start out by burning their bridges with him.

Barry, my experience at the pack level was also that a push for spring tiger recruiting ended up giving us more tigers in the fall. It also gave us time to get to know a few tiger parents and get one or two of them all geared up to be Tiger DLs. Perhaps this is because our pack worked reasonably hard at doing this recruiting and at keeping these folks engaged over the summer. But from a district perspective, I was really dismayed to see the numbers last year. Spring recruiting seems to help in that some of these boys are signed up primarily to go to day camp (which is allowed in our council) and even if they aren't ever active with a pack again, they're on the rolls for the year. I guess the thinking is that those same boys probably would not get signed up at all in the fall. I'm not a fan of this approach but I know it happens for some families. But the reality seems to be that the district recruits rather few (maybe 1-2%) of our overall youth membership this way. Last year I think we got 25 or 30 new tigers district wide in spring, out of a district of about 1900 scouts. I'm glad you asked this question though. Sometimes we do things because that's what people have done before, without really giving it enough thought.

I dunno, I'm not so sure about the BPOI. I've heard tell that we ilks are downright dangerous sorts, or at the very least, that we are destructive in nature (destructive of what, I'm not entirely sure - have to work on that). So I think that raises real questions about whether or not we are either benevolent or protective. I'm ok with the "Order" part although I'm not sure we're really a very orderly group.

Yup, it will be colder on the ground (or on straw). What part of the state are you in pixie? Feel free to send me a PM if you want. I'll keep my fingers crossed for your son that he doesn't get freezing rain which I think is worse than snow for new scouts to deal with. Bob, thanks for the explanation about the cocoa, I see where you're coming from on that. AvidSM, one thing about winter jackets is that most new scouts (in MI anyway) at least own one of these already! Sometimes you have to work with what you know people have on hand. Funny thing though, when I went out to where our guys were camping last weekend to help with our new scout orientation day, during the daytime most experienced scouts were not wearing their jackets and instead were using the layers as you recommend (except the one lad running around in his t shirt of course...). One of our "new" moms was shocked. Guess I'll share your insight with her next time I see her.

Well three's a crowd and now I think we need a name. Ilkniks? Ilklings? Trev, Pack, other members of the "ilk," what do you propose?

Well Pappy if you want a plurality of scouting movements then I recommend you contact your member of Congress about revoking the BSA's exclusivity charter, which from what I understand, is a major reason that there's a near monopoly in the first place. There are plenty of others who will probably agree with you, though probably for different reasons. As for the rest of it, nope I don't find it to be "faking" to suppose that most of us share some core beliefs even when we disagree on surface matters (ie, try the Scout Law and the Mission statement of the BSA - I'd say most scouters really do buy into those core beliefs). As for differing political and world views, well hey that's life. I suppose I view this from a sort of sociological or maybe it is anthropological (?) perspective. It is fascinating to me to try to understand how and why others develop their world views, and the extent to which people can articulate those views. I don't particularly care about making converts but I do love to talk about this stuff. That's probably why I count among my friends people from a pretty wide range of viewpoints, and also perhaps why I don't find most other views to be threatening or dangerous to my own understanding of life, the universe, and everything. I know that drives some people crazy though. Oh well.

Hot Chocolate is not a good choice. Not to hijack, but: Care to explain that one a little further Bob? What would you suggest instead (I'm not giving coffee to the kiddos! and most probably wouldn't drink tea) for a quick warm-up drink for a frozen 11 year old?

"If boys and or adult leaders recognized the value of wearing the uniform, they would find a way to acquire one. " So as scouters our work is cut out for us then. First we need to help scouts and their parents and other scouters with the above. Sure beats spending all this effort on complaining about the price of the uniform, or about how so few people within the organization seem willing to wear it! What exactly are you (all of you, not just previous poster) doing to help scouts, parents, and fellow scouters recognize this value then?

Actually I may very well be attending the next jamboree and would be delighted to hear a speech from President Obama on hope and the BSA at such an event. It might even be inspirational, who knows. And while personally, yes, I would love to be able to widely proclaim that the BSA is now open to all, sadly I cannot do that because that is not the current BSA policy and I (and others of my "ilk") do not write BSA policy on that matter. Have you ever been to a national jambo? I have not up to this point, but from what friends who have attended tell me, I can only surmise that there is an astonishing and eye-opening array of people, cultures, beliefs, traditions, and backgrounds on display there, all of whom have one big thing in common - they proudly call themselves Scouts and Scouters. But I do not think that the BSA is as monolithic as some seem to believe.

Hi Pixie, Welcome to the board. I'm in your neck of the woods as well and my son just got back from a camp out last weekend. Here are a few things I'd recommend, in addition to standard advice to let your son pack everything himself (maybe with you nearby the first time or two) so he knows what's in the bag and where to find it. 1) Call up or email a couple of adult leaders in the troop and ask them about borrowing gear. I know we have several folks who own way too much stuff to ever use in a year (let alone a weekend) and they're always happy to lend to new scouts. If you make arrangements to stop by their house to pick up gear, ask them to take a few minutes and explain to your son why the gear they're lending is good, how to use it, and how to care for it over the weekend. If you're worried about safety, ask adult leaders how they keep an eye out for frost bite and what they do for boys who are cold (ours typically keep a fire watch on really cold nights, have hot chocolate readily available, and have a stash of extra gear/clothes on hand if really necessary, esp. for new scouts who might not have packed the right stuff.) 2) See about maybe borrowing a second sleeping bag if it is supposed to be really cold. A 20 degree bag (and the truth of the ratings varies widely, I've found) with a fleece liner is one thing. A 20 degree bag inside another bag plus the fleece liner will be better. 3) My son prefers to sleep in polypropeline long underwear rather than sweat pants/sweat shirt. You may be able to get some good sale deals on these right now (I picked up a new pair for my son at Dunhams the other day for about $15 - top and bottom - but be careful as some of the sale items were cotton waffle weave - bad idea!). 4) How big is your guy? Little guys (and mine was/is) have a hard time heating up their sleeping bags, where warmth is really about putting out body heat. For them, stuffing an extra fleece or wool blanket down in the bottom half of the bag reduces the amount of dead air space to be heated and may make a difference. 5) Many new scouts and adults simply don't understand that sleeping in everything you own on top of whatever you wore that day is a bad idea. Far better to wear clean/dry clothing to sleep in on a cold night, than to pile jackets on top of the clothing you sweated in all day long. That goes all the way down to the base layer (underwear!). 6) The reality of personal hygiene is that there probably won't be much of it on a weekend camping trip! 7) The other reality is that most new scouts aren't going to use, and will almost certainly lose, a bunch of little "useful" items we parents might send along like extra raincoats, many extra batteries, a spare ground cloth, second rain coat etc.. Unless your son's troop is doing something as part of the klondike where they've been told they might need this stuff, better to leave it home. Among other things, having lots of little items means more clutter to try to locate and stuff back into his pack at the end of the weekend when he's tired, wet, and cold and just wants to get home. (This I learned the hard way) 8) The Day Pack is for what they'll be doing during the klondike activities. Maybe they need a compass with them, or a pen and paper to keep track of activities, or some other little items. If your son's troop travels in uniform, my son has found that keeping his uniform in the day pack means not having to search through his entire large pack for it on Sunday morning when he is preparing to come home. 9) I'd get rid of the plastic tote if possible. What exactly was going into it? If it were patrol gear (like, a cook stove or food for the patrol for the weekend) that would be one thing. But if it is personal gear, your son probably is way overpacking and shouldn't need a day pack, larger frame pack, and plastic tote. Keep in mind he'll probably be in charge of hauling all his own stuff around and it might even be a bit of a hike from car to camp site so keep it simple for him. I hope he has a good time! He's likely to be cold, wet, and tired on Sunday but once he's eaten, maybe had a shower and nap (those do my son wonders), I bet he'll want to share all his stories and accomplishments with you.

Pappy, that's actually funny. For one thing, my colleagues are quite well aware of my views on a pretty wide variety of issues and for another, we're a very diverse group ranging from libertarians to victims of the Bush/Cheney myopia to liberals, to resident Marxists. Your concerns about my tenure and place at the potluck table, while touching, are entirely misplaced. But I thank you for thinking of my welfare and providing me with a smile. But yeah, I agree with what DanKroh posted. I have no problem with the idea of allowing homosexuals and atheists and agnostics into the BSA. I don't believe it will result in rampant sexual activity at scouting events, any more than is the case now with women as leaders. Of course I am aware that you favor male leadership so perhaps this is a reflection of your fears. To which I can only say that you and I worry about different things. I doubt I will be able to convince you of the veracity of my world view and I am equally doubtful that you, in your apparently homophobic worldview, will convince me that I'm wrong. I have too much personal experience knowing wonderful individuals who simply are also gay to ever see them as "bad" or "sick" or "immoral" people. They're people and that's all, in my eyes. Many of them would be fine role models for my son (regardless of my son's orientation - youth in the BSA are considered to be "asexual" anyway). Of those who I don't think would be good role models, it has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with other aspects of their lives, which is equally the case for "straight" men and women. So anyway, is being homophobic part of being "manly" in your view?

"The other thing I've done on occasion is when troops have SM turnover, try to help the replacement be someone different than the last. If the last SM was a good organizer, make the next one a good people-leader, or vice versa. I think that helps troops address areas that have gotten weaker as each SM played to his/her own strengths, eh?" This is one of the things I think has worked pretty well in our troop, where our last few SMs have each served for 2 years before stepping down to become committee members and/or ASMs again. It gives the boys a chance to see different personality and leadership styles. Plus, because our last 2 SMs have stayed on in other capacities afterwards, it provides a sort of "institutional memory" and experience base for the new SM to draw upon.

But sometimes, especially in a same-age patrol structure, they can face challenges that we as adults would never face. A defiant patrol member spoilin' for a fight. A self-conscious peer who refuses to take direction. They're kids, and they're learnin'. Boy do I see and hear a lot of this sort of thing, especially among younger scouts. I am thankful that things seem to improve a little with age because one frustration I know my (now early teenage) son has had with being PL is that sometimes you really can't make your age/grade peers do anything they simply do not want to do. Everybody wants to be "independent" and nobody is willing to follow another's lead.

Dan: Steve and Ken, married? Joined in a loving monogamous relationship? Heaven forbid! Yeah, and they're threatening my marriage as we speak; how dare they. Look I don't think there's a place for sexual relations on any BSA camp outs, regardless of the identity of the people involved. Simple as that. As I've never, ever, not once, heard anybody argue that there SHOULD be a place for leaders to engage in sexual activity (let alone, for scouts!) on camp outs, then I really think this is a moot point, brought up by some who simply can't or won't let go of the notion that there's some big moral argument here when in fact, there is not.

Various posters have been pointing out that there are used uniform options available for those who really want a uniform but don't want to, or cannot, pay full price for new items. With the popularity of the new switchbacks, I am wondering whether we will see a decline in the availability of gently used BSA pants available to scouts? Since the switchbacks seem to be of a thinner material, and since they could reasonably be expected to get more wear and tear (because boys who own them may be willing to wear them on a regular basis, maybe even to school and out in public), are you finding it harder to procure second-hand pairs? Just curiosity on my part. Our troop has a uniform bank available for scouts but we don't have any of the switchbacks at our disposal at this time.

Although I'm in agreement that the trainings can be quite useful (if they are presented effectively and the person getting trained is receptive to the information being presented) I think a part of what FireKat is describing comes back to basic listening skills. If a leader isn't very good at listening (observing, communicating, all different aspects of that same skill) then he or she will most likely not be very aware when kids are struggling. That same leader, sent to training, may get little to nothing out of it because people who aren't good listeners typically don't do real well in a classroom type training setting, especially those focused on listening! So rather than just sending a person to training or prescribing things that they need to DO (which, in my experience, doesn't work real well) I would prefer to also see us stress to SMs that they need to understand their own weaknesses and make sure to surround themselves with, and really pay attention to, people whose strengths can compensate for those weaknesses.

Our adults typically do not eat with the patrols, but instead eat (very well) with the other adults. I like the idea of the SM or another adult visiting patrols for a meal or two. I think it would go a long way toward improving both the quality of the food produced and toward leaders recognizing where more instruction is needed. I'd be happy to see the SPL and ASPL doing this too - as is, they eat with the adults most of the time. Will suggest that to the guys. I guess while I'm at it I'll suggest they have an established (written and posted!) duty roster and menu available for all to see as well. To my knowledge none of our patrols do this, and I find it to be a weakness of the program, albeit perhaps a small one. I also like the idea of teaching more cooking at troop meetings. We very rarely do this, perhaps in large part because our troop meetings are typically inside a local school where cooking options are limited. But we've done dutch ovens outdoors on occasion and could again I guess. As for cutting, or cutting off, funding for food. I will say that most of the time the guys struggle to stay within their allotted budgets as is. Part of that has to do with menu choices (choco milk, ice cream, oreos, bacon AND sausage, etc.) and is something I may try to bring to the attention of our SM and ASMs again (in past it has fallen on somewhat deaf ears). But I don't think it is feasible to mandate that the boys all raise their own money for food because frankly most of their parents won't go for it and I can't make them either. I kind of feel torn between being too involved as a parent on one hand, (my son is both PL and grubmaster for his patrol right now and it was a real struggle for me not to tell him point blank he needed to re-think some items on his patrol's menu when he went shopping for the food. I ended up making some suggestions which he chose not to take.) and on the other hand standing by and watching what I think are pretty low standards troop-wide for this kind of thing. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions and for letting me vent a little!

With respect Bob, I would say that while those may be a part of scouting, the way they are used can vary widely. Despite the fact that lots of people here tout holding SM conferences and BORs for non-advancement purposes, I know of rather few instances where that actually happens in most units. We get posters here on a regular basis who talk about problems even getting advancement BORs and SM Conferences scheduled, let alone doing "extra" ones! I think the types of things Beavah suggests in his initial post are heavily dependent on the personality of the SM. We had one SM who was great at certain things, very enthusiastic, but he didn't seem to "get" when kids were having a hard time socially or emotionally. Personally I found that frustrating to watch. He probably would not have succeeded in doing most of the things Beavah suggests, because they didn't fit his personality or style very well. Kids having a tough time might have viewed an extra conference as being "lectured," coming from him. On the other hand, another SM I know could probably pull off the tactics Beavah lists with great success and does a good bit of this intuitively already. One thing I wish we had happen more is for the SM or someone who reports to the SM to sit down with each new scout's parents and really talk about how the program can help that individual child, from their parents' perspectives. Same thing with Webelos DLs. Even if they aren't joining the troop along with their boys, they know those boys better than most other adults - so why is there so little communication there? I know for a fact our troop has lost boys over things that could have been better handled, if our SM, or someone the SM listens to, had done these rather simple things.

THanks for the feedback so far. Yes I agree some of this is "live and learn" like the frozen eggs. But for goodness sake, the boys in this patrol are mostly 3rd, 4th, and 5th year scouts and should have a better grip on some of this stuff by now! My own son included! I get the feeling sometimes that they don't really have to learn because nobody notices or cares if they waste half the food they brought with them. Some of it is menu planning issues, like the apples - I know for a fact they got put on the menu to appease any adults who required a fruit or veggie. My son did try to claim garlic (for garlic bread) as a veggie, along with the bread (hey, it is made from grain and that grows in the ground so it could be a veggie, right?). So one approach might be not to require the kids to include fruits or veggies if they don't want them. And certainly one weekend a month without those items won't kill them. But then again, if we go that route then maybe they should be allowed to have pop tarts, ramen noodles, and hot dogs every time too. Some of it I see as the boys being a little lazy. Lasagna is NOT a tough thing to make in a dutch oven and if you line it with foil it isn't hard to clean up either. Heck, you don't even have to cook the noodles! But, it does take a few minutes to spoon the sauce and cheese over the noodles and it requires you to start dinner a little earlier than if you have hamburgers. And making one pot meals isn't hard but it might require a little effort to find a new recipe and learn to make them - which I don't see much initiative for in this group. But I see a lot of it as being a lack of team work and understanding or willingness to stick with the established process. If one boy is in charge of menu planning and solicits input, gets none, tries to plan the menu based on things he figures most kids eat, shops based on a reasonable menu, and then when he gets there his patrol mates won't stick to the plan because they "don't feel like it" then that's just too bad in my book. They eat what was planned and bought or they don't eat, dietary allergies aside. And maybe next time they'll be more proactive in providing input to their grubmaster. But nobody took this line so instead they spoiled and wasted the food that was bought so they could eat what they pleased. I noticed the ice cream, chocolate milk, and cookies all got used. Then again, maybe my expectations are too high.

Eamonn, thanks for your response. I have heard, second and third hand, similar concerns about the way scoutreach works in my own area. As mentioned, "my" district does not have any scoutreach units, being primarily suburban and rural in nature. Other districts in our council do have some scoutreach units and occasionally I hear things that make me wonder how effective the program is and the potential for membership abuses does seem apparent (not saying that is happening in our council - I really have no data to assess that - simply, I can see how it would be easy to allow such abuses to occur.) But, I have often wondered, with the number of rather highly organized and well-populated churches serving many of the same populations we're talking about reaching through scoutreach, why we couldn't get more traditional units going as well. One thing a couple of troops I know have been kicking around is a partnership between urban and rural/suburban troops - holding a couple of joint camp outs each year, maybe attending summer camp together, etc. It could be a great learning experience for the boys - and parents - on both ends. Would parents support it though? Sadly I'm not sure.

Years ago when I was working at a (non-scout) summer camp, we had a boy get stung by a bee for the first time in his life. In less than a minute he went into shock, throat swelled shut, and he very nearly died. I will never, ever forget that experience. I don't think we had epi pens back then and anyway, nobody knew he was allergic until it happened, including his parents. So my response is most likely colored by that experience, which was frightening to say the least for all concerned. But I do not think, as either a leader or a parent, that I would be willing to say that the responsibility lies solely in the hands of the child to avoid exposure to items that can be almost immediately lethal in some cases, and to which accidental exposure is a likely occurrence if the child or his patrol mates are not highly vigilant. I just know that I never want to be faced with that sort of experience again, wouldn't want that on my conscience, wouldn't want to be the one who had to tell the parents that their child had suffered due to lack of vigilance on his part (not a comforting thought) and so I would want to be sure I was doing everything in my power to help the child avoid being in that situation from the start.

Eamonn, What happens once those kids age out of cub scouting? Is it that there isn't much interest in continuing on with a boy scout-like program, or is it that the fellow doing the part time work does not (or cannot) run a real outdoor program on his own, or maybe some other reason? Not criticizing, just trying to understand what the dynamic is.

That's what our guys have too, a budget of $10 per boy who is attending. This time around my son's patrol had 5 boys = $50 but they wasted/spoiled probably $15 worth of food and some of it isn't even in good enough shape to use at home right away. If this were a rare occurrence I'd be willing to chalk it up to an "oops" moment but it isn't - practically every time my son is in charge of sorting out the left overs he comes home with a cooler and box half-full of yucked-up food no longer fit for consumption so this is an on-going patrol (really, troop) issue and I'm quite sure it is no different when other boys in the patrol are the ones to take home and clean out the box & cooler. It has just been some time since my son was last in charge of the food and so I'd forgotten how much this irritates me each time it happens. Grr...