Kudu

Internet Scouting conversations are often reminiscent of the proverbial three blind men who encounter an elephant. One man feels the elephant's trunk and says, "An elephant is like a snake!" The second man holds the elephant's tail and says, "An elephant is like a rope!" The third puts his arms around the elephant's leg and says, "An elephant is like a tree!"

In a similar way,

anarchist writes:

If I read it right, you have a small group of real "older" scouts...maybe hanging on (or hanging around occasionally) and a group of soon to be aging /higher ranked scouts 13-14 yrs old(Star/Life?)... and you wish to prepare in order to keep most of the up and coming scouts active and engaged.

CNYScouter writes:

In the same way It seems that the question you are really asking is:

How can we run a high adventure program when we have adult leaders who cannot or will not do high adventure activities?

And I see you saying that your adult leaders are just fine, thank you very much, but when the Scouts suggest:

- Tubing (also without PFDs)

- White water rafting (untrained nor planned)

- Canoeing on moving water (w/o prior training or planning)

Your adult leaders "advise them that either they find ways to satisfy G2SS or they should consider another event."

So, my "blind man" impression of your situation is that you are looking for "other events" simply because the Scouts can't satisfy the adults' G2SS objections to the PLC's planning of the activities in which the Scouts have already expressed an interest.

So could you be more specific about what kind of ideas you are looking for? Are you looking for a list of "what to do" events, or a discussion of "how to implement it" programing?

If it is the former, have you tried Troop Brainstorming?

Kudu

"Safety Afloat" and CPR are requirements of Canoeing Merit Badge, which is one of the prerequisites for our canoe trips.

"Swift Water Training" is probably the name of some local Council's training course.

EagleInKY writes:

Actually, the user of a guide/outfitter is a great way of not only ensuring a safe trip, but also teaching/reinforcing the safety afloat guidelines.

Yes, our guides structure the beginners' trip so that it only requires three hours of continuous paddling to get to the first night's camping spot. That way if it takes twice as long as planned, we can still set up camp before nightfall.

Once camp is set up, the guides are at our disposal to teach any skills in which they are certified. Since the canoes are empty then, this usually means white water techniques, but it can be land-based instruction instead. For instance a quartermaster course on stocking a canoe trip. One year we asked for a liquid fuels course for the Scouts with certification for the adults (in our Council, at least one adult leader must have attended a liquid fuels certification course for the Troop to use white gas, etc. on a campout).

So what I'm getting at is if the Guide to Safe Scouting stands in the way of OneHour's Scouts organizing their own canoe trip, then on the river is the best place for such book learning, where Scouts can hold the G2SS or other safety checklists in one hand, and touch the real-life example with the other.

Hands-on outdoor instruction has been the guiding principle of Scouting since the very beginning. See the cartoon illustrations from the 2nd Edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters at:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/instruction/learn_by_doing.htm

Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

Eamonn writes:

Maybe you could explain how I came to not understand the following:

"Canoeing on moving water without prior training or planning is one of our Troop's most popular events."

Eamonn,

Apparently you are only reading Bob White's posts. Bob only quoted part of the sentence.

OneHour had written,

My question is how do we, as a troop and of course the usual ... boy plan, lead, and execute ... a program that will integrate high adv into the regular troop program. I'm looking for examples....

Here is the situation. Currently, we have about 12 'older scouts' who came from the time when our troop was 95% adult-run, which allowed them to do things that would go against G2SS guidelines. These boys complained that the new scoutmasters do not allow them to have fun any more. On the contrary, the PLC decides the events we ask various G2SS guideline questions. They elected not to do some of the events....

Here are some that we didn't ban...but advised them that either they find ways to satisfy G2SS or they should consider another event:

...

- Canoeing on moving water (w/o prior training or planning)

....

My original reply, and subsequent clarifications are as follows:

Canoeing on moving water without prior training or planning is one of our Troop's most popular events, especially with parents! We hire a local Scouter-owned outfit that provides the canoes, equipment, food, registered guides, etc. for $60 per participant. It would be a lot cheaper to do it ourselves, but who wants to train or plan? :-) We do require Swimming and Canoeing Merit Badges to participate.

...

Seriously, an outfitter canoe trip is better than postponing a canoe trip until an inexperienced PLC somehow figures out how to plan one.

In our case, the outfitter company is owned by the Scouters who run our Council's yearly adult canoe training course. They offer a number of standard trips based on the experience of the people participating. This means that they are familiar with the current conditions of these different stretches of moving water.

The beginner's package always begins with "hands on" instruction in maneuvering a canoe in moving water, which our Scouts do not learn in their prerequisite summer camp Canoeing Merit Badge courses. As the tour proceeds downstream, the instruction becomes more advanced as the conditions become more challenging.

Most local commercial outfitters offer similar skill-level based packages.

I agree that using weekly Troop meetings to prepare for the next trip is half the fun. I'm just saying that package tours run by professional licensed guides are perfect for Troops like OneHour's where the PLC does not have enough high adventure experience to plan a high adventure trip.

...

My impression is that the PLC and the Scouters have reached a stalemate over G2SS issues. To me the solution is obvious, simply sidestep the impasse by hiring professional white water and canoe outfitters recommended by his local Council. This allows outside adults to introduce G2SS rules free from any ongoing personality conflicts.

...

So if your older Scouts have no redeeming virtues what-so-ever, then forget that PLC stalemate, forget "leadership development," forget planning, forget the Guide to Safe Scouting, and find a local Council-approved outfitter who incorporates all of that important stuff in a neat little commercial package. The registered guides are in charge on the water...not you.

It sounds to me like this Troop's older boy program has run into an absolute roadblock because the Scouters are holding the Outdoor Method hostage to Leadership Development.

I stand by what I wrote. There is nothing in the Guide to Safe Scouting that prohibits BSA Canoe Instructors and/or professional registered guides from teaching moving water techniques on moving water. In our case the ratio is about one instructor for every three Scout canoes.

If we are done with the personal attacks, then let us abandon this thread and return to the discussion topic:

Need Ideas, Past Lessons, Current Process ... for Older Scouts Program

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=110536&p=1

Kudu

Who posted?

"Jump over open campfire (apparent it was done before my time with the troop to 'initiate' new scouts)

The attraction of "secret" campfire rituals is universal. Try your own new Scout initiation ceremony based on traditional Scout campfire war dances and war songs performed with Scout Staves"

Three different people, actually:

Jump over open campfire (apparent it was done before my time with the troop to 'initiate' new scouts)

Was written by OneHour and he appears to be opposed to the practice.

The attraction of "secret" campfire rituals is universal. Try your own new Scout initiation ceremony based on traditional Scout campfire war dances and war songs performed with Scout Staves:

Was written by me, and it does not advocate jumping over fires. Significantly, like Bob White, you snipped off the most important part of the sentence:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm

which was written by Baden-Powell and although very wild and scary, it does not include jumping over fires.

Teaching scouts to jump over open flames is contrary to everything we teach in scouting about safety.

was written by Bob White.

Again, read what I actually wrote.

was written by me.

The OA does not have you LEAP OVER FIRES. so that is not a very good comparison.

was written by Bob White after ignoring the request to read what I had actually written.

Again, I proposed the Eengonyama war dance as an alternative to leaping over fires.

was written by me.

Sure it might seem like harmless fun to have young Scouts leaping over fires as part of a stupid and non BSA approved initiation ceremony.

Was written by you after ignoring all of the above.

As far as I can tell, nobody here is in favor of jumping over fires. Can we agree on that?

Now, what is your next quote?

Kudu

Anyway, Kudu, are you in a BSA unit or some other organization.

I am a Scoutmaster of a BSA Troop, and a local Council basic cold weather training & advanced winter camping ("Okpik") instructor.

At one time I thought you were a member of a non-BSA unit, but you say you follow the G2SS so I am not sure.

Yes, I also involved with the American branch of the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) in the development of their Traditional Uniforms and Traditional Scout & Senior Scout Section advancement programs.

I can kinda sorta in a way see the looking for the "natural leader", but what do you do with the "shrinking violets" or the "wallflowers" you will inevitably come across, what do you do to help those kids grow?

We were talking about first year Scouts signing up in advance for Merit Badges at their first summer camp. The shrinking violets and wallflowers sign up for Swimming and Canoe Merit Badges largely because they don't want to be left out. But really, OGE, once they are in the water it is just their skin against the natural elements isn't it?

Every Scouter has experienced the transformation that occurs when you somehow, someway just barely manage to persuade a shrinking violet to do something outside of his comfort zone. They usually relapse the next day and insist that they can't do it, but 90% of success in life is just showing up and if they just hang on long enough they will succeed.

And when they do surprisingly pull it off and earn that impossible badge, what a difference there is in how they walk, no? Really, they move differently and their eyes meet others at a different angle.

I also use this peer pressure strategy when I recruit six graders in the public schools, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

It's the hecklers and the class clowns that I want to persuade. Capture their imagination and the others will follow. The secret is that everyone is a shrinking violet in some well-hidden aspect of his life. In the comfort of a school auditorium bears and rattle snakes sound like great fun, but when the sun begins to set on the first night of their first campout then bears no longer sound like such a good idea.

But what boy wants to admit that he is afraid?

Personal growth is all about meeting your personal demons. Maybe the perfect first year program is one in which every boy is afraid at least once, but no two boys ever at the same time: fear of the dark, fear of the water, fear of being away from mommy, fear of heights, fear of public speaking, fear of thunder, fear of strange foods, fear of wetting the bed, fear of wild animals, fear of getting lost, fear of someone making fun of you. Fear is probably genetic, its what kept our fangless, clawless, naked ancestors alive. Conquering fear is what made them human.

So if your older Scouts have no redeeming virtues what-so-ever, then forget that PLC stalemate, forget "leadership development," forget planning, forget the Guide to Safe Scouting, and find a local Council-approved outfitter who incorporates all of that important stuff in a neat little commercial package. The registered guides are in charge on the water or on rope, not you.

Just like the first year Scouts, smug, cynical, anti-social teenagers all have their personal demons too, they just hide them better. There is nothing like a high adventure encounter with the forces of nature to change things.

Adrenaline leads to the discovery of hidden aptitudes. Natural aptitudes facilitate the learning of skills in unfamiliar environments. Skills produce self-confidence. Self-confidence takes the form of leadership when a wallflower explains in simple terms what needs to be done.

Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

Sure it might seem like harmless fun to have young Scouts leaping over fires as part of a stupid and non BSA approved initiation ceremony. However the real harm comes when Scouts see that this sort of thing is all fine and dandy then decide that they will try it with bigger and better fires when the adults are not around.

You and your fellow-travelers can't find that specific quote, can you?

You say things that are not true. What kind of "example" is that?

Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

If you follow the program as it is designed, the TG joins the New Scout Patrol and stays with them until they either disband to join other patrols or are ready to elect a full term patrol leader.

Bob, where exactly did you find such a definitive answer?

I beg to differ. I believe the program states that Troop Guides do not leave their "home" patrol - they are not members of the NSP.

acco40, I couldn't find that either.

In my current troop the TG is generally the retiring SPL, having been appointed by the Scoutmaster.

pmickle1027, I think that is the ideal situation. By the way, as recently as the last SM Handbook (eighth edition), the TG was indeed appointed by the Scoutmaster, "Each patrol of new Scouts is under the supervision of an older Scout called a troop guide, who is appointed by the Scoutmaster in consultation with the assistant Scoutmaster responsible for new Scouts [page 23]"

acco40, I agree, the SPL and ASPL are not really a patrol, but how do you believe they should go about cooking and eating. Do they eat with the adults? Do they cook for themselves? Do they eat other patrols' leftovers?

Hillis, in our Troop, the SPL and Troop Guide compare the written menus before the campout to decide with which Patrol they want to eat. :-)

I thought that the BSA kept this stuff intentionally ambiguous. In our Troop, the Guide "guides" the newest Patrol, and may sleep and eat in their campsite until they know how to set up their tents, write a menu, cook, and shop.

Most Troop Guides would prefer to hang out with their old Patrol, but first it is his most important task to find a good Patrol Quartermaster. A Patrol cannot become independent until they have a good Quartermaster, so different Scouts try it out in the same way that most New Scout Patrols rotate Patrol Leaders. In our Troop this is a really big deal. When the best Patrol Quartermaster emerges and proves that he can handle the responsibility, he is technically appointed as one of the multiple Troop Quartermasters and wears that position patch.

By then a natural leader is usually emerging, but I digress :-)

Kudu

Note that at one time, the so-called "Points" of the Promise were actually numbered. In the rest of the world, these "Three Points" of the Scout Promise, are literally the three numbered points, for instance :

1) To do my duty to God and the Queen;

2) To help other people at all times;

3) To obey the Scout Law.

Because the BSA added "physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight" to their Oath, it became necessary for them to combine "To obey the Scout Law" with the first point, and then substitute abstract general categories for the Three Points of the Oath:

1) Duty to God and country;

2) Duty to other people; and

3) Duty to self.

These are not the same "Three Points."

Kudu

Eamonn writes:

I am a little concerned when you post: "Make sure that the Guide to Safe Scouting is not just an excuse for the adults to reject activities with which they are not familiar or qualified to run themselves."

OneHour had written, "Here is the situation. Currently, we have about 12 'older scouts' who came from the time when our troop was 95% adult-run, which allows them to do things that would go against G2SS guidelines. These boys complained that the new scoutmasters do not allow them to have fun any more. On the contrary, the PLC decides the events we ask various G2SS guideline questions. They elected not to do some of the events."

I was just reading between the lines. My impression is that the PLC and the Scouters have reached a stalemate over G2SS issues. To me the solution is obvious, simply sidestep the impasse by hiring professional white water and canoe outfitters recommended by his local Council. This allows outside adults to introduce G2SS rules free from any ongoing personality conflicts.

Baden Powell was a great man and years ahead of his time. However just because BP did was was acceptable at that time in no way makes it OK to do today. Of course if you are talking about the BP Scouts and not the BSA, I do hope that you make this very clear to the parents.

Being from England, you should be aware that Baden-Powell Scouting preserves the game of Scouting as it was practiced by Baden-Powell while he was still alive. It makes changes to B-P's advancement requirements only to reflect advances in 1) Health & Safety, 2) Lightweight Equipment, and 3) Environmental Concerns ("Leave No Trace").

My feelings are that is isn't a BSA approved activity and going ahead with it shows total disregard for the Scout Oath Law. I know if I knowingly went ahead and broke a rule that expecting others to follow rules would be difficult.

Apparently Bob White is not alone in his inability to entertain three ideas at the same time: 1) The ban on laser tag is a politically correct nanny rule, 2) We do not break this nanny rule, 3) Here are some alternative activities which are not against the BSA's nanny rules.

While I don't see much fun in the ideas that you have posted, maybe some Lads might?

My experience is that Scouts do not learn new games by reading, but when introduced with the spoken word and explained with enthusiasm, wide games have a universal appeal for older boys, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/

I really see much of what you posted as being anything but responsible.

Could you be more specific?

I count myself as being very fortunate that my son is not a member of the unit you serve.

I suspect that, in common with Bob White, your negative feelings have more to do with your own personal political agenda than with any deep understanding of the Spirit of Scouting.

Kudu

Bob White writes:

You determine if water is dangerous based on what other groups do and how deep the water is rather than on routine safety standards held by the BSA others who are involved in water safety.

The bottom line is that I conform to the Guide to Safe Scouting.

That being said, yeah I look at what other groups do when forming my own objective opinion. The image of you wearing a PFD in water no more than six inches deep is a perfect example of the triumph of blind obedience over common sense. Yes, if I was going tubing in water no more than two feet deep as a BSA event, then I would wear the stupid PFD, but I certainly would not be proud of it as you appear to be.

It is not true that the G2SS is a collection of "routine safety standards." Other examples include the prohibition against monkey bridges more than five feet off the ground, and the rule against laser tag. These are not "routine safety standards." My guess is that they are not based on an insurance carrier's risk analysis, but rather a liability lawyer's opinion of what measures are necessary to protect the BSA's assets. These are two different standards, but I leave it to others to spin this issue into a new topic and debate it in depth.

The OA does not have you LEAP OVER FIRES. so that is not a very good comparison.

Again, I proposed the Eengonyama war dance as an alternative to leaping over fires. The Eengonyama chant and dance plugs directly into the human fascination with campfire rituals. It goes back to the very first Boy Scout campout and is the only song that the participants at Brownsea remembered singing.

Investure or welcoming ceremomnies are not the same as iniations.

The difference is in name only. The OA does indeed have initiations, and they are based on Ernest Seton's Birch Bark Indians initiation which predates the BSA. From the link I gave above, you can also find Dan Beard's "Sons of Daniel Boone" initiation.

so if they are "sadly lacking" it is because units didn't do them not because they couldn't or didn't have the scripts.

I think that they fell out of use as BSA Tenderfoot became more than a few simple joining requirements. Now that the Scout "rank" has apparently taken over this function, I suggest that investiture ceremonies be based on that achievement.

I enjoy laser tag. My son and I have gone a few times. He has gone with his friends, we just don't go as a scout activity.

This seems to contradict your justification for the BSA's prohibition on laser tag, "We teach scouts from the time the pick up a BB gun in cubscouts to the time they fire a shotgun in Boy Scouts that you NEVER point a weapon at another person...." Which is my point exactly, it is just an arbitrary, politically correct nanny rule. The problem is not the BSA's rules, the problem is that the BSA has a odd monopoly on Scouting which then encourages this kind of blind obedience with the inevitable resulting hypocrisy.

The prohibition on laser tag simply fails the squirt gun test of absurdity.

But thats not what YOU said....You didn't mention anything about them motivating others to go, all you said was that you invited the most popular ones to go. There was nothing there to suggest that you meant anything beyond that.

I'm trying not to read too much into this, but what I wrote was:

"We do require Swimming and Canoe Merit Badges to participate. I personally consult the most popular new Scouts before their first-year summer camp and ask them to sign up for these two Merit Badges so that they can participate in the next canoe trip. Peer-pressure then makes it easier to get the rest of the new Scouts (those who can swim) to sign up too."

Kudu

Anarchist writes:

KUDU- I am hoping some of you comments are either mild frustration, resignation or even slightly tongue in cheek but I have to say I am rather distressed that a canoe trip is "better" by engaging an outfitter because "who wants to plan or train".

Only "slightly" tongue in cheek? :-)

Seriously, an outfitter canoe trip is better than postponing a canoe trip until an inexperienced PLC somehow figures out how to plan one.

In our case, the outfitter company is owned by the Scouters who run our Council's yearly adult canoe training course. They offer a number of standard trips based on the experience of the people participating. This means that they are familiar with the current conditions of these different stretches of moving water.

The beginner's package always begins with "hands on" instruction in maneuvering a canoe in moving water, which our Scouts do not learn in their prerequisite summer camp Canoeing Merit Badge courses. As the tour proceeds downstream, the instruction becomes more advanced as the conditions become more challenging.

Most local commercial outfitters offer similar skill-level based packages.

I agree that using weekly Troop meetings to prepare for the next trip is half the fun. I'm just saying that package tours run by professional licensed guides are perfect for Troops like OneHour's where the PLC does not have enough high adventure experience to plan a high adventure trip.

Kudu

JM,

The BSA no longer offers Rovering. However, the sponsoring organization of a BSA Troop can establish a Rover Crew if it is understood that Rovering is a separate program in no way connected with the Boy Scouts of America. For help in establishing a traditional Rover Crew, see the Rover Scouts Association (RSA):

http://www.roverscouts.org/

The RSA has a very active listserv. To subscribe send an Email to:

roverscouts-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

The Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) is affiliated with the RSA and will offer a traditional Rover program in the near future. Details will be made available through the RSA.

Kudu

I will be very straight forward on this. Your unit is a death trap waiting to spring. The fact that it has not killed or seriously injured someone is just a matter of time sic. If what you post is true then it's not a question of will someone be killed, it is simply a matter of when.

Bob, I will be very straight forward with you. Your inability to read for comprehension is a death trap waiting to spring. The fact that it has not killed or seriously injured someone is just a matter of time. If what you post is truly what you think you read, then it's not a question of will someone be killed, it is simply a matter of when. Go to bed now, and for your own safety and the safety of others do not read any cookbooks.

Basically what I said was to follow what the liability lawyers wrote in G2SS and hire licensed professional guides.

It takes about 6 inches of water for a person to drown.

I heard it was a teasspoon. Our parents report that PFDs in six inches of water makes bathtime difficult.

Initiations are FORBIDDEN in the BSA.

So call it an Investiture ceremony open only to those who have attained Scout "rank."

Investiture ceremonies are a rite of passage sorely lacking in the BSA these days, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/ceremonies/admission.htm

As a matter of fact, the BSA Order of the Arrow initiation ceremonies (yes, initiation ceremonies) are based on Ernest Seton's Woodcraft Indians initiation ceremony, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/organization/initiations.htm

Teaching scouts to jump over open flames is contrary to everything we teach in scouting about safety.

Again, read what I actually wrote.

We teach scouts from the time the pick up a BB gun in cub scouts to the time they fire a shotgun in Boy Scouts that you NEVER point a weapon at another person...

Yeah, right! Your local Scout summer camp doesn't sell squirt guns? Ours does. And a person can drown in a teaspoon of water!

At any rate I recommended alternatives to laser tag, such as "Bomb-Laying" and other wholesome traditional Scout games:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/b-p/general.htm#BOMB-LAYING

Laser tag in our area is just a game of high-tech freeze tag. For tag games not yet forbidden by the G2SS see:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/tag/

But making events available to only certain scouts based on their perceived "popularity" rather than on their interests, skills or experience, or more importantly simply because they are members just the same as the "popular" scouts?

Yeah, what Venividi wrote :-) Using natural leadership skills, we get all of the new Scouts who are able to swim to earn Canoe and Swimming Merit Badges and thus qualify for canoe trips.

Our American preoccupation with the science of corporate leadership skills education (One Minute Manager, Eleven Leadership Skills) causes us to overlook the fact that the Patrol System was based on Baden-Powell's observation that in all of the human cultures that he observed around the world, boys tend to group together in small gangs and that natural leaders always emerge. In Baden-Powell Scouting adult leaders look for these natural leaders.

Kudu

That's the problem. They can't tell me.

A good Troop Brainstorming session with everyone yelling out wild ideas will solve this problem. Interesting activities will emerge if you make sure that no idea is discouraged at this point in the process (because of G2SS, for instance).

I will leave it to others to discuss leadership development, but leadership follows enthusiasm.

Laser Zone:

I'm with your Scouts on this one. This is a only a problem because the BSA has recently decided to use the G2SS to promote political correctness. For a collection of politically incorrect, red meat, fresh air alternatives to laser tag, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/laser_alternatives.htm

Tubing (also without PFDs):

I'm with your Scouts on this one too. Some tubing streams in Texas are only two feet deep, and not all Texas outdoor youth organizations require PFDs in such very shallow water situations, see:

http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/Activities.html

The G2SS does specifically require PFDs but if the idea of tubing is so popular, I'm sure that plenty of your new "old" Scouts will participate even if they have to wear PFDs. Use your adult resources to help them plan such trips for safety.

White water rafting (untrained nor planned):

If your PLC is really lazy, this could work to your advantage. It is a lot easier to plan a trip with a outdoor adventure company that provides the equipment as well as the trained leadership. Your local Council office probably has promotional literature from such outfits.

Canoeing on moving water (w/o prior training or planning)

Canoeing on moving water without prior training or planning is one of our Troop's most popular events, especially with parents! We hire a local Scouter-owned outfit that provides the canoes, equipment, food, registered guides, etc. for $60 per participant. It would be a lot cheaper to do it ourselves, but who wants to train or plan? :-) We do require Swimming and Canoe Merit Badges to participate. I personally consult the most popular new Scouts before their first-year summer camp and ask them to sign up for these two Merit Badges so that they can participate in the next canoe trip. Peer-pressure then makes it easier to get the rest of the new Scouts (those who can swim) to sign up too.

Jump over open campfire (apparent it was done before my time with the troop to 'initiate' new scouts)

The attraction of "secret" campfire rituals is universal. Try your own new Scout initiation ceremony based on traditional Scout campfire war dances and war songs performed with Scout Staves:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm

These are just the ones that I assumed. Pressing the question to one of them. All that he could come up with is tubing!

Then make sure you yell "Tubing!!!!" early during the Troop Brainstorming session.

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/brainstorming.htm

There are games that we recommend that they should not play often and should make different rules or have some concerns for younger scouts: dodge ball....

Our Scouts play dodge ball almost every week. One online UK Scout games book has about six variations. As Scoutmaster, I insist that the PLC reserves time so that some Scout game be played every meeting (to promote the Uniform and Patrol Methods). Teams must be based on whole Patrols, but the teams are not required to be equal or even fair! Often a single Patrol (sometimes one of the older Patrols or more often the Dragons--a group of 13yo class clowns) has to face the combined fire power of the entire Troop.

The point of all of this is that it sounds like you already have a few ideas of what the new older Scouts want. It seems to me that it is just a matter of problem-solving to make their ideas acceptable to the adults.

Make sure that the Guide to Safe Scouting is not just an excuse for the adults to reject activities with which they are not familiar or qualified to run themselves.

Kudu

Currently, we have about 12 "older scouts" who came from the time when our troop was 95% adult-run, which allows them to do things that would go against G2SS guidelines. These boys complained that the new scoutmasters do not allow them to have fun any more.

Would you list the activities that they considered to be fun, even though they don't comply with G2SS guidelines?

Here are some ideas to help them get started:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/activities/older_scouts.htm

It goes without saying that the Scouts must plan these activities themselves, or they will never buy into them. For additional ideas, try Troop Brainstorming--or a modified version for just the older Scouts:

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/brainstorming.htm

Venture Patrol and Venturing handbooks are another source of ideas and how-to techniques.

High Adventure attempts fizzled out last year after a trip to Double H, namely because there was no adult sponsor.

It sounds like you are having problems finding adults for your high adventure activities, is that true? If so, your Scouts might do a brainstorming session around that. They may know people who have specialized high-adventure skills.

I think you will find that many adults are very interested in high adventure campouts IF you present them as one-time, individual activities. You may not be aware of the interests of parents in your Troop because (like your older Scouts) they are not interested in car-camping. Try locating young adults who were once Scouts in your Troop, as well as parents whose kids may have aged-out. Try posting a notice at your Council HQ and making announcements at Roundtables. Local Venturing Crews are an obvious resource. Local outdoor stores such as EMS (Easter Mountain Sports) may offer outdoor weekend "clinics" at cost.

Be sure to review the relevant YP and other Guide to Safe Scouting rules.

How does your troop incorporate high ad elements into campouts, outings, troop meetings, etc, ... while allowing them to be part of the troop?

We sometimes run a two-tiered campout where the younger Scouts camp at "home base" and the older Scouts go backpacking. Many successful Troops run "older-Scouts only" campouts in return for the older Scouts providing leadership at Troop meetings and car-campouts.

The BSA model for regular Troop meetings suggests a three-tier model in which older Scouts split off to plan their own activities.

Kudu

I have assembled a collection of close-up photographs of the BSA uniform pants comparing them to various cheaper alternatives. Let me know if you find any inaccuracies, or if you know of any alternatives that I have omitted:

http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm

Bob White: It is interesting that the 1980 Wood Badge syllabus would cite the same sources as Lewis Orans.

Miki: Does it sound like B-P is presenting it as his idea, or is he reacting to a new American idea? This would have been 15 years before Hillcourt's "Methods of Scouting" was published in Handbook for Scoutmasters. I hope I can find a copy.

Does anyone know how long such material remains in copyright?

Miki,

Since Bob White references both Lessons from the Varsity of Life and Aids to Scoutmastership, his source is probably the Pine Tree Web, see:

http://www.pinetreeweb.com/ethics.htm

However the Webmaster, Lewis P. Orans, can not find a specific reference either.

As far as I can tell, the quote first appears in the third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters (edited by William Hillcourt) as one of the "Ten Essentials of Scoutmastership." This wording (probably by Hillcourt) shows a deeper understanding of Scouting than the current shorter version:

"A realization that to the boys Scouting is a gameto you, a game with a purpose: Character building and Citizenship training."

See:

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/hillcourt/scoutmastership.htm

In the 4th edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters, it was truncated down to the current headline length for a graphic on page 13.

As far as I can tell, the BSA did not mistakenly attribute this shorter version to Baden-Powell before the publication of the old BSA "Scoutmaster Fundamentals" course handbook. I once spent an afternoon on the phone to Irving Texas trying to track down the anonymous author. The person supposedly in charge of old manuscripts at BSA Headquarters did not even know who Baden-Powell was! Perhaps with your connections you could find out who wrote that section of the SMF manuscript.

My guess is that it is a product of prairie dog research. One junior executive at BSA HQ pops his head up over his office divider and asks the guy in the next cubical, "Hey, didn't Baden-Powell say that 'Scouting is a game with a purpose'?" If that guy answers "Yeah, I guess so," then it is a confirmed quote!

This form of historical research is probably the source of other quotes attributed to Baden-Powell by the BSA in their official publications. For instance, the B-P quote on page 20 of the current Scoutmaster Handbook: "The patrol method is not a way to operate a Boy Scout troop, it is the only way," but in the 3rd edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters (page 161) Hillcourt attributes this quote to Roland Phillips. Hillcourt's wording is "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried out. It is the ONLY method!" B-P's term would have been "patrol system" not "patrol method."

The "game not a science" quote is actually from Hillcourt's "Methods of Scouting." It was his first, and presumably most important, Method: "The Scout Way (1. A Game, NOT a Science)". The Scout Way (along with the Uniform--for a while) was stricken from the Methods of Scouting in 1972 (after Hillcourt retired) to make room for the modern new "scientific" method called "Leadership Development."

See "The Seven Methods of Scouting:"

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/

The correct Baden-Powell "Scouting is a game" quote is from the Introduction to Aids to Scoutmastership:

In my 1920 and 1930 copies of the book, it reads:

"What Scouting is. It is a game in which elder brothers (or sisters) can give their younger brothers heathy environment and encourage them to healthy activities such as will help them to develop CITIZENSHIP."

I found a more poetic version in an optically-scanned version of Aids to Scoutmastership, credited as the 1945 "Brotherhood Edition:"

"SCOUTING IS A GAME for boys, under the leadership of boys, in which elder brothers can give their younger brothers healthy environment and encourage them to healthy activities such as will help them to develop CITIZENSHIP."

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/scouts.html

Kudu

SirJimmyG writes:

I was wondering if any of you had some original ideas for program content. I know the PLC will be able to plan a good program; I'd just like some ideas to get the ball rolling.

The basic idea is to spend the weekly meetings developing skills for the next campout.

108 specific ideas for outdoor winter activities can be found at "Okpik On Line:"

www.inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities

42 Night Games (to train for the world of Night Scouting) at:

www.inquiry.net/outdoor/night

84 Wide Games (for older Scouts) at:

www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide

For next spring, 75 kite-making plans at:

www.inquiry.net/outdoor/spring/kites/index.htm

2,000 other pages of stuff to keep you busy:

http://www.inquiry.net

Patrol Competitions

You can find the "point system" details for our Patrol competitions at:

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/competition.htm

Basically, we award different colored ribbons at weekly meeting openings and closings, and at monthly campouts.

The categories of colored ribbons are based on the requirements for the National Honor Patrol Award, plus additional categories that reward a Patrol for other traditional Scouting practices, such as best Patrol campsite; quickest silence at "Signs Up;" introducing new songs, skits, and wide games; teaching a skill at a meeting or campout; and so on.

The ribbons are tied to the staff of the Patrol Flag with a colored piece of yarn that indicates the season in which the ribbon was awarded. A colored bead on each piece of yarn indicates the year. This is important because it allows the ribbons from past competitions to remain attached to the Patrol Flags during future competitions.

You mention subtracting points for bad behavior. Don't do that. Since the very beginning, Scouting has always been about what we now call "positive reinforcement." As William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt wrote in 1936 about Patrol competitions:

Experience has definitely shown that it is unwise to include any demerits or penalties in a point contest of this kind. It is agreed that a positive stimulus is much better than a negative threat or punishment.

You can find additional ideas and details at:

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/compet_intro.htm

Kudu

To generate ideas for your 2005-2006 program, try a

Troop Brainstorming Session

This is a whole-Troop event, not just the PLC.

The rules for brainstorming are:

1) Quantity Not Quality.

2) No Negative Feedback Allowed.

3) Hitchhiking is Encouraged.

Make sure everybody understands the three rules. Then write down the ideas as they are shouted out so that everyone can see them from where they are seated. Try using a blackboard or a tripod easel that holds a large tablet of newsprint or some other surface on which you can write.

1) Quantity Not Quality: Try to get as many ideas as possible. If you have 20 active members, you should easily be able to generate at least 100 ideas in about 10-20 minutes.

2) No Negative Feedback Allowed: Don't allow the Scouts to start judging each others' ideas. If you get into a period where the class clowns try to outdo each other's stupid ideas, then try to gently bring them back on track by offering some practical ideas of your own and writing those down.

3. Hitchhiking is Encouraged: This is the reason that you don't want to discourage stupid ideas. If someone suggests "Let's go camping on the space station," try hitchhiking with suggestions of your own like "visit local science museum, observatory, planetarium, etc." or "space station theme at next campout, with space-theme Wide Games." See:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/conquest_type.htm

After the brainstorming session type out all of the ideas and make a copy for every Scout.

At the next Troop meeting divide into Patrol Corners, and have each Patrol decide on what it thinks are the twelve best ideas (for twelve monthly themes). One method is to have a Patrol discussion, then have each member circle his three favorite activities on his own copy of the 100 idea list. Then prepare a Patrol master list based on these individual votes.

At the next PLC each Patrol Leader represents his Patrol's 12 favorite ideas.

Most of you know that Baden-Powell's Scouting for Boys probably sold more copies than any other title during the twentieth century with the exception of the Bible.

Fewer people are aware of his father as co-author of the radical Essays and Reviews (March 1860--published in this country as Recent Inquiries in Theology), one of the most famous books of the nineteenth century!

The Reverend Baden Powell was the first eminent cleric to declare publicly for Darwin, and Darwin admired Powell's writings as he indicated very clearly in his introduction to the third edition of The Origin of Species.

From Jeal's biography, Baden-Powell:

"During the 1850s, many clerics explained away evolutionary theories by arguing that the gaps in the fossil record and the apparent suddenness of changes in species could only be explained by God's decision to create anew every time conditions became unfavorable for existing species. In The Order of Nature Baden Powell poured scorn on such last-ditch arguments. In the October issue of the influential Quarterly Review his book was savaged by the Archbishop of Dublin and others. Far from recanting, Professor Powell sent off a still more trenchant essay--in which he demolished the historical authenticity of the miracles--for inclusion in a collection provisionally entitled Essays and Reviews.

"The Order of Nature was a significant influence upon [b-P], as a sub-heading in Rovering to Success makes plain 'Nature Knowledge as a Step Towards Realizing God'. Baden-Powell also used to quote Bacon's aphorism: 'The study of the Book of Nature is the true key to that of Revelation.' "

If you take the time to read about these connections, I think you will understand why the BSA's government-established monopoly on Scouting is so very important to American religious fundamentalists.

See:

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

Kudu

I suspect that Baden-Powell would have found such questions distasteful and better left between the Scout and his gods.

B-P's requirement was a retest with the Scoutmaster to "ensure that you understand the Law and Promise in accordance with your age and development"