Kudu

Here is an excerpt from Michael Foster's history of the British Boy Scouts. Over the years I have tried to contact him for a written reference to Baden-Powell's use of the term "outlander," as well as information about the origin of the "Outlander Promise," but I have been unsuccessful. If anyone knows him, or if you know if Ian Nicolson or Roy Worthy are still alive, perhaps you could step in and help solve this mystery in the history of Scouting.

The British Scout Federation / The Outlanders

At the beginning of 1978 Ian Nicolson (1st/2nd & 6th Hampshire) and Fred Torr (2nd/3rd Nottinghamshire) left the FSE with their Groups to form 'The British Scout Federation' which was renamed in 1979 as 'The Outlanders,' a term B-P used for those who could not make the full Scout Promise. Early 1979 the Outlanders was registered as a Charity.

The original design of the badge that the British Scout Federation had chosen for their symbol, was the Jacob's Staff, inside the outline of a fleur-de-lys. The Staff had been the emblem of the 1937 World Jamboree, the last Jamboree Baden-Powell attended. The Outlanders continued with a plain Staff removed from its fleur-de-lys. A third group joined as an affiliated group in March/April 1978 - 1st Chesterfield which had been a Baden-Powell Scout Group and had become an independent group. Contact with this Scout group was provided by Roy Worthy who had joined the new organization and who had been a Province Commissioner in the FSE living in Chesterfield. Worthy's membership was short-lived only surviving until Jan/Feb 1979. Contact was lost with the Chesterfield group due to Roy Worth's resignation. Fred Torr died Jun/July 1979, leading to the loss of the Nottingham Group. The remaining group continued the Outlanders as a separate organization until 1988, when it merged with the BBS for a period of 6 years until 1994 when it reestablished as an independent organization under Ian Nicolson's leadership [pages 77-78, "The Great World Scout Schism and the History of the British Boy Scouts," by The Reverend Michael John Foster SSC MIWO, copyright 1998].

Well, statements like "I suppose I could set myself up as some sort of Scouting Guru, write a new set of rules and regulations and hang out my shingle," speculate on personality, rather directly addressing the merits of Baden-Powell's Scouting methods.

Still if I go and ask for a Baked Potato, which as far as I know McDonald's don't serve, they will not be able to help me.

I don't like fried burgers, but McDonald's really does make the best fries. If Congress granted them a monopoly on the term "Baked Potato," then all baked potatoes would be fried :-/

The idea that kids arrived to tents that were already up and ate meals in a dining room, where the meals were cooked for them was totally and completely foreign to me. So in answer to the question, I said that I thought that the Boy Scouts in America were a bunch of softies!!

I think that your initial reaction was correct. Not that BSA Scouts are softies, but that most summer camps only pay lip service to the Patrol Method, sacrificing it to being efficient Merit Badge factories. My Scouts' favorite summer camp is one that includes both Patrol cooking and five Merit Badge classes per day, so it is possible to do both within the BSA program.

But there wasn't a Rover Scout Program any more.

The Rover program is returning. Some BSA people run it as a Venturing speciality.

Kudu

However if I was unhappy with the uniforms and the programs of the BSA, I suppose I could set myself up as some sort of Scouting Guru, write a new set of rules and regulations and hang out my shingle.

Be sure to add "Produces Scouters who make personal attacks" to the list of "What's Wrong with the BSA." :-)

The "Traditional Scouting Movement" dates back to the 1960s when Scouting membership went into decline. All around the world, marketing gurus in WOSM Scouting associations began to dramatically rewrite the program as it had been set up by its inventor Baden-Powell (or William Hillcourt in the USA) in an effort to popularize Scouting with "today's new generation of youth."

In the UK (where big government does not limit its citizens to only one brand-name of Scouting), Scouters picked up the discarded program and called it "Baden-Powell Scouting." So, by definition, Traditional Scouting is not a "new set of rules and regulations," written by "some sort of Scouting Guru," but rather a return to the rules and regulations as written by Baden-Powell.

Of course I would have to tell each and every youth and parent that this program was not a BSA program,

The BSA sued the Girl Scouts and Winchester Arms over the use of the word "scout" in 1924 with similar claims. They assembled an amusing collection of affidavits claiming that the use of the name "Girl Scouts" inflicted psychological damage on the boys, and that the name should be "Girl Guides."

that we would not be using BSA material, not using any of the BSA resources

I favor large posters rather than books for helping learn basic Tenderfoot through First Class Scouting skills. For Proficiency Badges, how many people these days rely on BSA Merit Badge books anyway? In the BSA, there are Troops that favor do-it-yourself camping over BSA summer camps, and Traditional Scouting will appeal to a similar small minority of like-minded Scouters, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop

and we would not have any of the insurances offered by the BSA.

The BSA is not the only youth organization to discover the virtues of insurance.

people both youth and adult sign on and do nothing but complain about how big and bad the BSA is.

Like everything else in life, the BSA has its advantages and disadvantages. My point is simply that in the larger world of Scouting, there is nothing inherently wrong with a Scoutmaster appointing the SPL. The BSA is just one brand of Scouting in the same way that McDonald's is just one brand of burger making.

I am a member of the BSA and really don't care what is happening in the UK.

OK, my bad. Whenever a question about UK Scouting comes up in the Scouter.Com discussion forums, someone always says, "Oh, ask Eamonn!"

Kudu

What I don't understand is why the wait?

Well, golly gee Eamonn, how long does it usually take you to organize something like that?

My primary interest is in looking at Scouting from a wider viewpoint. Baden-Powell's model of how to do Scouting provides a different perspective because there is no record of that ever having been done in the United States.

Of course I would also love to see someone organize a Traditional form of Scouting based on William Hillcourt's pre-1972 methods :-) Traditional Scouting is usually defined as being true to Scouting as it was practiced in the early 1960's making changes in the program only for reasons of 1) Health & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns ("Leave No Trace"), 3) Advances in Light-Weight Equipment.

So, Eamonn why didn't you answer my question? Has every WOSM organization discarded Baden-Powell's Patrol System?

It seems simple enough to answer: a) No, Kudu, we don't use Baden-Powell's Patrol System in the UK either. Or, b) Yes, Scoutmasters still appoint the Troop Leader (SPL), and that is why we lost the British Empire :-/

Kudu

What do you do with parents who complain all these "new" clothes are too expensive and cant be borne by the family budget?

Try a "New Scout Patrol Thrift Store Caravan." Spend a Saturday afternoon driving the new Scouts from thrift store to thrift store looking for $3-5 boots, jackets, fleece sweatshirts, non-cotton pants, etc.

In our area, thrift stores do not feature seasonal differences in clothing, so the selection of winter clothing is much better in the warmer seasons.

I like my expensive high-tech stuff, but for demonstration purposes I have a complete wardrobe of thrift store camping clothing with large "clown-size" price tags so that the price I paid is visible to the audience as I explain how to shop for a $40 winter wardrobe.

Kudu

The practices from the olden days are interesting from a historical perspective. What relevance the old ways have on the operation of today's troop is questionable.

Has every WOSM organization discarded Baden-Powell's Patrol System?

In the USA, if the old ways are not relevant to the "operation of today's troop," then we should not misquote the authors of the old ways to prove that the new ways are based on the old ways :-/

Go with what is, not what used to be.

Hopefully we will soon have an alternative to the BSA for those who choose to operate today's troop on Baden-Powell's traditional Scouting practices.

Kudu

modern processed wool is not "scratchy".

That depends on your sensitivity to wool. I have tried different brands of "smart wool"/acrylic blend socks, and even with sock liners it is like slipping my foot into a bee hive.

Always let your Scouts know that heavy duty 100% acrylic socks are available in good outdoor stores.

Kudu

The quotes attributed to Baden-Powell are incorrect. B-P knew a few things about Scouting, and he believed that Troop leadership is best appointed by the Scoutmaster.

The assertion that in the BSA, the Senior Patrol Leader has always been elected by a Troop election is also incorrect. William Hillcourt also knew a few things about Scouting, and in his system, "The senior patrol leader is elected by the patrol leaders' council. His appointment is authorized by the troop committee on the Scoutmaster's recommendation" [scoutmaster's Handbook 1968, page 51]. Hillcourt also recommended that when starting a new Troop, that Scoutmaster train only "The 'Chosen Few'" of the "keenest, most 'regular,' most respected boys" of the "sponsoring institution or the neighborhood."

It is impossible for most Americans to imagine that B-P's Patrol System is based on appointed leadership because we live in a country where big government limits our choice in Scouting to a single monopoly religious corporation.

The moral certainty that elections are the only way to teach citizenship ("the quality of an individual's response to membership in a community") is a result of our growing up without freedom of choice.

In the real world, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. All of the above methods of selecting Troop leadership have their advantages, and perceived disadvantages.

Bear in mind that "Scouting is a game NOT a science". There is no scientific evidence that the BSA's current "Patrol Methhod" produces better citizens than the Scouting associations in countries that use Baden-Powell's "Patrol System."

Kudu

My question is how do you take a troop from where this one is to boy-led and using the patrol method. I can see how its supposed to work, but I have a hard time seeing how to get from here to there

The quickest short cut to the Patrol Method is to physically separate the Patrols AS FAR AS POSSIBLE!

If you live in the north, this is hard to do in the winter if you camp in cabins, but separate Patrol lean-tos can work very well!

SM is well trained, either doing or instructing WB

If in your area they separate Patrol sites a good distance during Wood Badge, then separating your own Patrols will be familiar to him, at least as a concept. This might be a topic for "late night adult discussions around the glowing embers of a campfire".

PL's are there to get their leadership months checked off on their advancement requirements.

Oh well, good Patrol Quartermasters are far more important than the Patrol Leaders anyway :-) A Patrol can get by with bad leadership, as long as they have all the food and supplies they need to camp independently. Promote the best Patrol Quartermasters to "Troop Quartermasters" so that they have their "leadership months" (and a badge) too, but keep them doing Patrol Quartermastership (you can have as many "Troop Quartermasters" as your number of Patrols).

Kudu

It is important to change clothes including underwear, before getting into your sleeping bag.

If they change their underwear after getting into their sleeping bags, all of the muscle movement will help warm up their sleeping bag.

Damp poly-pro left inside the sleeping bag will dry out during the night.

Kudu

Where are you located? Here in Western New York, most boys already own "snow pants." They can also be purchased at thrift stores for about $4. These days the thrift store racks are full of $3-$4 fleece sweatshirts. If you are going to be outdoors for an extended period, a pair of non-leather insulated boots is the most critical article of clothing. These are cheap in thrift stores too. In our area, thrift stores sell winter clothing year-around, so there is a bigger selection in warmer weather.

Sometimes we arrange a Saturday "New Scouts Patrol" caravan of automobiles and drive from thrift store to thrift store looking for used winter gear.

We also strongly encourage packing polypropylene ("poly-pro") long underwear year-around, and require it on all summer backpacking and canoe trips. It helps cut down on the whine-factor when clothing and sleeping bags get wet.

It also eliminates the necessity of wearing a sweatshirt over the Scout shirt on chilly mornings at summer camp flag-raising ceremonies.

As far as "full dress uniform" goes, for automobile travel, indoor cabin, and some outdoor winter conditions, we use olive-drab nylon "zip-off" pants (our "Troop Activity Uniform"), see:

http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm

They can sometimes be purchased new for about $20 at large discount stores or Campmor, and sometimes show up at thrift stores. They work well as a shell over a poly-pro and/or polyester layer. They dry quickly but are not "water-proof," of course.

Some of my Assistant Scoutmasters are against Scouts wearing Uniform shirts on campouts except for travel, and they are certainly not an outdoor winter shirt, but I always wear one when cabin-camping, and sometimes the Scouts follow my example. Most of them purchase them from me for a $5 or $10 deposit, so damage is not the concern it seems to be in most units.

As far as pack inspections go, we only have such "shake-downs" for campouts too remote for parents to come pick up their whining cotton-wearing son. The Scouts know they are not supposed to wear cotton (especially cotton socks), but we use regular monthly car camping to let them learn through experience what wearing wet cotton feels like, and why we have a rule against it.

Kudu

I agree with Hunt and Eagle74, and would suggest that most people just want to know what to do at next week's meeting :-)

However, theoretical discussions about "semantics and terminology" can be useful as well. For instance it was suggested that the methods don't reinforce each other, and aren't even related other than they are both methods. But indeed "the world is not black and white like the printed word."

For instance:

"What do you guys do when only one or two members of a patrol are able to go along on a particular campout?"

To me, from the Patrol Method point of view the answer is obvious: If two Scouts cook for themselves on one campout, they may be more likely to miss the teamwork of their whole Patrol and this may be a factor in convincing the rest of their Patrol to go along on the next campout.

However, "Adult Association" becomes a factor when the ratio of adult drivers to Scouts is too low to bring a Patrol's worth Patrol equipment for two Scouts.

This in turn is related to the Outdoor Method, in that some Troops use backpacking equipment even for car-camping, and can thus pack a Patrol's equipment in a smaller space.

Leadership Development is also a factor here, because only two Scouts from this Patrol showed up. How was the event planned?

Kudu

The scout Methods are a theory? Only a theory? Where is that taught?

More importantly, where is the "Eight Methods" theory not taught? The answer is that no other Scouting association in the world teaches the so-called "Eight Methods," and for 75% of its history, the "Eight Methods" theory was not taught in the BSA either. The Methods of Scouting are merely a theoretical model of how Scouting works. In other words, a way of organizing the program elements. Or as Hunt writes, it is an overall approach, shaped by certain rules. I would add that both Methods and the specific rules change over time.

Neither Baden-Powell nor William Hillcourt used the current "Eight Methods" model as such, so it is just the current working theory of BSA Scouting.

Theories such as the "Methods of Scouting" merely help put things in perspective. B-P was very fond of detailed diagrams and such, but Hillcourt was the visionary who introduced the "Methods of Scouting" approach.

A perfect example of the fact that the "Methods of Scouting" is only a theory, is the Uniform Method. After Hillcourt retired, the Uniform Method was eliminated in 1972 for nine years. During this time there were "Seven (7) Methods". If Methods can be dropped and added, then the Methods of Scouting is a theory which changes as the BSA's emphasis changes over time.

The Scout Methods, as a refresher, are the transition between the Aims of Scouting and the Mission of scouting.

You answered your own question. When exactly was the so-called "Mission of Scouting" written? When did somebody first decide that "Scout Methods are the transition between the Aims of Scouting and the Mission of scouting"? Come on! Get real! Are you saying that before there was a "Mission of Scouting" there were no "Methods of Scouting"?

How do you take "how we do it" and make it merely a theory? The Methods are specific actions...personal growth method.

Well, that is a perfect example. If, as you say, "The Methods are specific actions," then what specific actions are unique to the so-called "Personal Growth" Method? Hillcourt did not believe that "Personal Growth" (or "Leadership Development") constituted a separate Method. Name one "specific action," Bob White, that you do to encourage personal growth that could not be more easily included under another Method (Advancement, for instance).

PL training isn't something you need to stop and do. It is a constant use of leadership styles that allow you to counsel and mentor rather than tell and yell.

Wrong. Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training ("Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol") was a specific six month course in which the SM would "stop and do" a monthly meeting in which he taught Patrol Leaders how to conduct Patrol Meetings, how to conduct Patrol Hikes, how to conduct Patrol Campouts, etc. It was Patrol Leader specific training, not the current managerial leadership theories that teach the same abstract "leadership skills" to everyone from Troop Buglers to adult Cub Scouters.

If you feel that the only way to develop good young men is only through male association you need to go work that out with your mother. I am sure she probably feels that she had some relevant and valuable input in your growth.

My point exactly, most boys' lives are already dominated by female role models. Writers such as Michael Gurian maintain that the "victim" feminists were wrong, boys and girls are different, and boys need male mentors. Now, this may not be practical in Scouting because not enough males donate their time to public service, and without female leaders some units would fold. But no matter how loudly politically-correct people scream, Hillcourt's "male association" Method is still valid.

Which proves my point: if 100% of all BSA Scouters now agree that "Adult Association" is morally right and Hillcourt's "Men in Scouting" Method is just plain wrong then it should be obvious to everyone that the "Eight Methods" model is a theory, and like all theories is subject to change.

The uniform method and the outdoor method aren't even related other than they are both methods.

Hillcourt certainly found them to be related. It is only because BSA Supply produces an inferior product that zealots pretend that the Uniform Method is only an indoor Method.

If you are wearing a scout uniform on a winter camp-out, then someone did a poor job of teaching you how to dress for cold weather.

My Council paid to send me to the week-long national Okpik training course in Ely Minnesota. Breathable nylon makes a good, comfortable layer, and it dries out very quickly.

So kudu, you don't wear a scout uniform and you don't use the methods of scouting.

You write things that are not true and your understanding of Hillcourt is equally flawed at times.

Why would you go through the expense of sewing a patch on top of another one? Why not just design a shirt? The design simply needs to include a fleur-d'lies, the words "Boy Scouts of America" or the initials "BSA".

You don't understand the Uniform Method. Boys take pride in their accomplishments, which are represented by the badges on their uniforms. This in turn inspires younger Scouts. The best place for this process is the outdoors.

The scouting that Eamonn, Fscouter, OGE, CNY, myself and a few others talk about is much closer to the scouting of Baden-Powell and Hillcourt then what you have recommended.

You don't read very well, Bob, but if Eamonn, Fscouter, OGE, and CNY believe that what I actually write is not close to the spirit of the Scouting of Baden-Powell or Hillcourt, then I am always happy to discuss it with them.

Kudu

The Methods of Scouting are only a theory of how Scouting works, so all such discussions are theoretical and purely subjective. In reality there are 38,000 different versions of the Eight Methods.

When we talk about Methods of Scouting, we are revealing our values. Some people value absolute obedience to authority, and so they talk about "following" the Eight Methods.

On the other hand, the Methods can be viewed as being merely descriptive. Eamonn, have you ever heard of the "Eight Methods of Scouting" in the UK? My guess is that you haven't, but some Brits dare to call it "Scouting" even so. If you looked at the three different UK Scouting associations through the filter of the "Eight Methods" you would find that they all "follow" the Eight Methods to some degree. The different degrees to which they do so reflect the different values that these different associations place on such practices.

William Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting were used for 25 years, as opposed to the so-called "Eight Methods of Scouting," which have been around for 24 years. I simply submit that Hillcourt's Methods were better, but that reflects the fact that I value Traditional Scouting over the current religious conservative monopoly product.

Baden-Powell structured Scouting as "I) Boy Training; II) Character Training; III) Physical Health and Development; IV) Self-Improvement for Making a Career; V) Service for Others (Chivalry and Self-Sacrifice the Basis of Religion)," but did not consistently refer to these elements of Scouting as "methods."

As a thought exercise, what is the very worst that would happen if your troop practiced "William Hillcourt" Scouting for one month a year, using Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting rather than the current eight? See:

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods

Would Eamonn or Bob White even be able to tell that you weren't "following" the "Eight Methods"?

Imagine

1) No "Personal Growth" method. Come on, what would you do differently if personal growth was not a method?

When this "method" was introduced, there was a checklist by which you could "measure" personal growth in relation to the "Three Aims of Scouting" but nobody does that anymore, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/6th.htm

2) No "Leadership Development" method. If you made it a subset of the Patrol Method and used Hillcourt's "Patrol Leader Training" (as opposed to Junior Leader or Troop Leader Training) for a change, would your Troop Librarian or Troop Scribe suddenly become dyslexic? Would your Troop Bugler become tone deaf (or any more tone deaf)? Is there really any downside to occasional Patrol Leader specific training? See:

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar

3) If one month a year, you chucked the politically correct "Adult Association" in favor of male role models (Hillcourt's "Men in Scouting") would your Scouts' development be forever shattered because they have nowhere else to look for female role models?

4) If we brought back William Hillcourt's The Scout Way (1. A Game, NOT a Science), Bob White's head would explode, but I don't see a downside.

I don't think anyone can come up with an outdoor uniform that will suit every state in the union and every sort of weather condition.

That is a myth. I have a breathable nylon shirt similar to the BSA's new product, and it works from -10 degrees to the mid 90s, in any Scouting situation, see:

http://tinyurl.com/arbn7

Breathable "zip-off" nylon pants work just as well, however in the winter they only serve to promote unit cohesiveness and do not have any practical value other than as a shell layer.

Here in Southwestern Pennsylvania it's hard to know if a Scout is in uniform in the winter when he is outdoors all you see is a winter coat.

Here in Southwestern New York, we know when they take their coat off inside the cabin :-)

The point of wearing a Scout Shirt in the great outdoors (where all Scouting "should" take place) is that the Patrol Patch reinforces the Patrol Method, the Position Patch reinforces Leadership Development, the Rank Patch reinforces Advancement, the Temporary patch reinforces the history of the Troop, the Merit Badges (if worn on the sleeve) reinforce individual proficiencies, the troop numerals reinforce troop identity. Wearing the same style clothing promotes unit cohesiveness, and discourages snobbery.

Given the current BSA Uniform, using the Uniform Method as an outdoor method is probably better practiced with Troop Activity Uniforms.

I have no idea if the uniform will change, if we will follow the Venturering Program and allow units to opt for the BSA uniform or one of their own making?

As a thought exercise it is possible to that now in the Scout division without avoid breaking any rules by sewing non-BSA patches on the above BSA activity shirt. Such generic patches to replace official BSA patches can be purchased, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/generic.htm

Kudu

My point exactly. This thread reflects the fact that the current BSA uniform is the mirror image of what a Scouting uniform should be: it is a symbol of values rather than an icon of outdoor adventure.

As long as the shirt is washed (a Scout is clean), candle wax from the memorial service of a National Jamboree on a shirt worn to a campout should be a mark of experience: a badge of honor and distinction.

Kudu

Creating an environment where Scouts will wear it is a test of leadership.

Creating a uniform that the Scouts can wear in the outdoor environment is a test of an association's leadership.

The solution is obvious: rename the "Uniform Method" the "Blind Obedience Method," and find some other meaningless rule to impose on the Scouts. Maybe a bad haircut.

Design a breathable nylon outdoor uniform but forbid Scouts from wearing it indoors. You would then have a real Scout uniform and a real Method of Scouting.

While you are at it, get rid of "Personal Growth" as a Method. It really isn't a Method, it is an Aim. If you can have "Three Aims of Scouting," then why not four? Unlike a true Scouting Method (such as Outdoors, Patrol, Uniform, Ideals, Advancement) there is no activity that you can do to encourage personal growth that wouldn't fit just as easily under another category such as the Ideals or Advancement.

Eliminate "Leadership Development" as a Method and return it as a subset of the Patrol Method where William Hillcourt (the inventor of the "Methods of Scouting") placed it.

Finally, restore "The Scout Way," Hillcourt's first (and most important) Method of Scouting: "Scouting is a Game, NOT a Science!"

Kudu

William Hillcourt said that all real Scouting takes place in the great outdoors.

It is interesting that nobody has suggested wearing old uniform shirts on campouts! It just shows how divorced the so-called "Uniform Method" is from real Scouting.

Kudu

I don't see what the big deal is. But I would like to see all of the old requirements brought back :-/

The best advancement requirements are those which the Scouts already do naturally in a good program.

How difficult this is for a Scout probably depends on his social skills and self-confidence.

Our Dragon Patrol of class clowns just added another Scouts last night. That makes 13 active Dragons and about five inactive. It helps when a Patrol all hangs out together after school, since it is not much of a secret that they all disappear at the same time once a month for an entire weekend :-/

On the other hand, our nerd Patrol, the Wolves, was unable to invite anyone at all so far this year.

The option of bringing back an inactive Scout is good for the older (non-swimmer) Scouts. Our "Dragon Slayer" Patrol sometimes drags in an old Scouting buddy and surprisingly they do stick around when warmly received.

Boys join (and rejoin) Scouting because somebody asks them.

By the way, the Scout Zone DVD was issued to help Scouts role model for this requirement, see:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=106122

Scouts love to help at recruiting assemblies, so they could fulfill the new requirement by answering questions--and, as a bonus, get out of a period if it is held during school hours! See:

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

Kudu

Yeah, currently, there is no patrol identity. The only thing the Troop does as a patrol currently is for a short period right after the opening, they get together to take attendance and dues as patrols.

Try a Troop campout contest where the Patrols compete to set up the Patrol campsite most hidden from the others.

The further they are from each other, the more independent they will need to be, and the more valuable a good Patrol Quartermaster becomes.

This is also a good opportunity for friends and brothers to decide in which Patrol they want to be.

Kudu

I'm with nldscout and FScouter. It doesn't take many exceptions of convenience to erode Patrol identity.

That whole question could be solved by putting brothers in the same patrol, however, that seems to be discouraged in most Troops.

Who exactly is "putting" brothers in different Patrols, and who exactly is "discouraging" one "policy" or another? You say that you have "two adults going along, hanging out at the fringes" of Patrol outings, which suggests that you are letting the Patrol Method do its thing. If adults are deciding which Scouts go in which Patrols, then you should consider letting go in that area as well.

Since you also mention that you have Patrols with "'friends' who are in another Patrol," perhaps the thing to do is work through the PLC to allow the Patrols to reform themselves around friendships.

The best Patrols are groups of friends that like to hang out together when they are not in a Scouting situation. If brothers have common friends then they should tend to end up in the same Patrol.

This helps with peer-recruiting too. One of our Patrols has doubled to a total of 12 in the last year.

Kudu

Eamonn writes:

If I did misread or misunderstand what you posted, please accept my apology.

Apology accepted. Likewise, I apologize for the fact that my style of putting things in perspective is so easily misunderstood.

Another Forum Member inspires hysteria by quoting only parts of sentences out of context. This is reminiscent of political religious fundamentalists who believe that the answers to every issue can be expressed in absolute terms: there is only one right way of doing anything, and everything else is morally wrong. The problem is that such people tend to misrepresent their perceived adversaries so as to make their own moralist position appear indisputable. Given the similarity between Bob White's "Your unit is a death trap waiting to spring" rant, and your post below, these techniques can be very effective indeed.

This is contrary to the Spirit of Scouting in which Anarchist and I can debate the relative importance of teaching experienced Scouts how to plan, over teaching inexperienced Scouts by taking them on a trip planned by professional instructors. The best answer for any given Troop depends on many different variables. These discussions are helpful to readers who may recognize similarities to their own situation and find one approach more practical for them that the other.

Moralist rants are indeed fun for those of us who see a connection between the BSA's politics and the changes they have made to Baden-Powell Scouting and William Hillcourt Scouting. But "larger issues" discussions muddy up practical "what to do next Wednesday" threads and belong in the Issues & Politics forums.

If we take out anything that you or anyone else might see to have any connection to leaping over open fires, which I think is my only reference to what you didn't say. Will you agree with what I posted on Sunday, 9/11/2005: 10:36:44 AM?

Obviously not. Which of the following moral condemnations is based on anything that anyone actually wrote?

I do feel very strongly that if you refuse to play this game by the rules you are playing the wrong game and you need to go elsewhere and find a game that you can play.

Adults who place the youth we serve in harms way are guilty of gross negligence.

I just do not understand how an adult leader can claim to have Scout spirit when they are blatantly and brazenly not keeping the Scout Oath and Law.

When we say that not following the rules is OK. Or when we show a total disregard for what is laid down in BSA literature.

Maybe the BSA does lack some checks and measures that would help ensure that people who are not playing this game by the rules are not allowed to continue with setting the bad example that they set.

My great fear is that nothing will be done to get these people out of our organization before a youth member is harmed.

My great hope is that they will see that this really isn't the organization for them and they will leave.

Bob White writes

I think Eamonn's original post was dead on.

You like Eamonn's posts because he repeats your misquotations without checking the original sources.

Scouts learn by doing.

Kudu

Indoor Recruiting:

As the philosopher Bob White once noted, the reason that most boys don't join Scouting is that nobody ever asks them. The following indoor presentation works very well. I usually get half of an assembly of sixth grade boys to sign up as interested in joining Scouts, including a good number of former Cub Scouts who hated scissors and paste and never made it to Webelos. It is designed as an in-school presentation during school hours, but it will work in most other indoor youth venues:

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

Don't assume that all public schools are off-limits to the BSA, but do try to find someone who knows the principal and is gifted with social skills to arrange this assembly.

If you can't arrange an assembly before November, then postpone it until the last week of school before summer vacation. While it is easy to get half of the boys to sign up when you offer a program with matches, knives, rattlesnakes, and bears, most parents will not allow their sons to join Scouting if they have recently received a failing "progress report" from school. Do not make this mistake.

Be sure to run a summer program for the new Scouts because most of them will not be able to afford summer camp at such a short notice. It is my experience that sixth grader summer recruits are more likely to remain in the Troop over the summer than fifth graders.

Flyers:

I hand out an informational flyer during the above assembly. But when I talk to their parents that evening, I find that only one out of ten flyers has made it home with even the most motivated boys. If you read the BSA handbooks written in the 1930s, you will find that the same phenomenon has always been true. Even in the depths of the Great Depression, William Hillcourt recommended spending money on postage rather than trying to get "trustworthy" Scouts to bring printed information home from Troop meetings.

Outdoor Recruiting:

The BSA has just released an outdoor recruiting DVD called the "Scout Zone." Overall it looks OK, and it includes "Open House" ideas.

Patches

The Scout Zone DVD package also includes a free new style 3" round "Recruiter" patch. I suggest that you stock up on the out-going 3" round recruiter patches so that you have three different patch styles, which you can tier as follows:

Recruiter Strip = for recruiting one new Scout

Old-style 3" round Recruiter Patch = for recruiting a total of two new Scouts

New 3" round Recruiter Patch = for recruiting a total of three new Scouts

Patrol Leader Badge = for recruiting a total of four new Scouts

Outright Bribery

Patches may motivate your patch collectors and aspiring Patrol Leaders, but I have found out that the true "coin of the realm" in peer-recruiting is Reeses Cups! When a Scout brings a friend to one of our meetings or a campout they each get a Reeses Cup. They do not have to be serious about joining, but if they do return with a completed registration form, the whole Patrol gets an additional Reeses Cup because, after all, it takes a village :-/

Kudu

Jon Stewart's "Daily Show" is featuring a four-day in-depth analysis of the Evolution/Creationist controversy. If you don't subscribe to cable TV, clips from the series are available at the following URL. Others will become available as the week progresses.

"History of Evolution" is a fair and balanced introduction to this controversial subject, with useful graphics that help the viewer grasp some of the more complex scientific principles involved.

http://tinyurl.com/8c6ga

History of Evolution

Evolution Facts: The 8th Day

Evolution Tour: Scopes Trial

"Evolution Heritage Tour" at a Creationist gift shop.

Kudu

THE #1 ANSWER as to why they weren't scouts...

Because no one ever asked them to join.

I'm with Bob White on this one! I can usually persuade half of a sixth grade audience to sign up as wanting to join Scouting, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

But the bottleneck in the follow-up phone calls is not the boys' perceptions of Scouting (which admittedly are not initially very good as I go into a recruiting assembly), but the resistance of their parents:

1. Competition from other activities, such as youth sports: This is common, especially with hockey parents. I'm surprised that you didn't list the mother of all "other activities:" SCHOOL! If you schedule a recruiting assembly after the first "progress" report home, then you are going to run into BIG problems when you realize that all six grade boys are failing school :-/

6. The policy on gay membership: Over the years a couple of our Scouts have left when they found out that a beloved family member was gay. But right now we are going through one of those cycles where the youngest Scouts are vocally anti-gay. Ours actually take some comfort in telling each other that "gays aren't allowed in Scouts." This phase seems to wane when they get a little older and realize that girls find them attractive :-)

13. The ACLU: The ACLU has no bearing on my Troop so far, but since our existence depends on recruiting from within the public schools during school hours, the nightmare scenario for us is local religious fundamentalists getting headlines for kicking some little skeptic out of their Troop.

scoutldr writes:

What was expected by the Council staff, was "just read the material and play the videos...how hard can it be"? In fact, when they declared "100% mandatory training", even the Council secretaries were pressed into service to be "Trainers".

Why is the professional staff running the training program in your Council?

Kudu