Kudu
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Posts posted by Kudu
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Has anyone figured out what causes a message to appear twice, even though it was submitted only once?
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Rooster, the context of the quote is as follows:
"Baden-Powell's admirers subsequently made much of the fact that his Laws never resembled negative 'thou shalt not' commandments but were always positive. The true significance of this formulation seems to me to be that (rather like a religious convert) a boy who became a Boy Scout was expected to be a changed being, wearing the brotherhood's hat, carrying his pilgrim's staff and knowing the order's secret signs and chants. Thus equipped, he could be all the things that the Scout Law states a Scout is.
"With 53 Labour M.P.s recently elected, the ruling class must have found the Oath and Laws reassuring, Yet while many boys probably enjoyed the ritual enrollment, human nature does not suddenly change even if fashions and conventions do. From time immemorial boys have lied with facility, have thought adults hypocritical and have resented any attempts to make them appear to be ostentatiously virtuous. Edwardian boys were no different and had they thought, as Michael Rosenthal does, that the Scout Law had been framed to produce 'absolute submission to all officially endorsed forms of authority', they would have shrugged their shoulders. Laws of a kind were insisted upon by all boys' organizations, and if the Scouts had them too that was the way things were; and at least some of them were unusual. No other body asked its members to smile and whistle 'under all circumstances'. And the prohibition of snobbery was equally novel....Far from seeming a strait-jacket of rules, Baden-Powell's scheme offered freedom beyond anything most of them had ever encountered....For thousands of boys who had never slept away from home, and for many more who had never left their home towns even for a way, this idea of going off with friends on an ambitious expedition was intoxicating...."
As Jeal points out, Baden-Powell's approach was always positive. His "Religion of the Deep Woods" and "Practical Christianity" were part of this intoxicating great adventure. Like everything else in his game of Scouting he approached these subjects indirectly, not through confrontation.
As to how this translates into appropriate questons at a BOR, I would point out that in Baden-Powell's model of Scouting, there are no "Boards of Review" for advancement.
Perhaps the American equivalent would be "Ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies."
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I'm with Neil on this one. As Tim Jeal wrote concerning the Oath & Law in his biography "Baden-Powell,"
"From time immemorial boys have lied with facility, have thought adults hypocritical and have resented any attempts to make them appear to be ostentatiously virtuous" [page 394].
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The following titles are suggested as possible movies for Troop JLT weekends because they embody leadership and/or group problem solving. Given the number of new and old classic films that are released now on DVD every year, does anyone have any additional recommendations?
Follow Me, Boys
Master & Commander: The Far Side of the World
The Emperor's Club
October Sky
The Cowboys (John Wayne)
Lost in the Barrens
My review of "Master & Commander" for JLT can be found at:
http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm
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> And your in scouting,why? Too just bash the uniforms, & insult the
> program?
Perhaps my review was too complicated to be of any practical use for most readers. At any rate, it was my version of a gushingly positive evaluation :-/
As far as bashing the uniform goes, I would divide those who debate the issue into two camps: those who see the BSA uniform as a symbol and therefore a moral issue; and those of us who view the uniform as a practical method of Scouting which reinforces the other methods (patrol badge, rank badge, leadership position badge, outdoor event temporary badges, etc.).
Most people in the moral camp make a virtue of necessity and claim that the proper place for a Scout uniform is indoors.
Those of us in the practical method camp believe that most of the problems with the uniform are a result of the fact that it was designed by a dress designer, and not as functional high adventure clothing for the outdoors, where all true Scouting takes place.
I also suggested that the new "Boy Scout Action Shirt" appears to be a step in the right direction. See:
At any rate my point was that the "Scout Zone" recruiting videos CLEARLY indicate that the BSA now views their uniform as a hindrance to recruiting. The DVD tells Scouts that if their friends object to the uniform, "Tell them we just wear it for meetings. . . .When we're on trips, we wear regular outdoor clothes."
Likewise, the adults and the Scouts conducting the suggested troop recruiting rally are intentionally pictured NOT wearing their BSA uniforms.
> What are YOU doing to help recruit in your council.
See: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm
> I've got the same kit as you, so I know what you're talking about,
> & what your trying to do.
Obviously not.
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For bringing a friend to a meeting, and for finding old Scout uniform shirts, the coin of the realm in our Troop is Reeses Cups!
If the visitor actually registers, the entire Patrol gets an additional Reeses Cup because making a newcomer feel welcome is really a group effort.
In addition to the Reeses Cups we give out BSA recruiter badges, of course: the rectangular recruiter strip for 1 new Scout, the old 3" circular recruiter badge for a total of 2 new Scouts, the new 3" circular recruiter badge for 3 new Scouts, and a Patrol Leader Badge for 4 or more new Scouts.
Some troops give out, as incentives, unrelated old temporary badges (which can practically be bought by the pound at Scouting memorabilia trading shows).
We also pay $10 for used uniform shirts, but I think the real motivation is the Reeses Cups :-/
Kudu
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Wow! Google News has a new "Customized News" function! It is an option up toward right hand corner of the Google News page which reads "Customize This Page":
After you save your changes, bookmark your customized page because your URL is then different:
http://news.google.com/news#s_1
You can customize it to report any slant that you want, depending on what keywords you use.
For my own newspage, I just used the keywords "Scout Scouts" and selected the option to show nine stories. So today my customized news page shows the following stories:
Sioux City Journal
Area Scouts earn badges at national Jamboree
Tullahoma News and Guardian - 11 hours ago
Several Coffee and Franklin County boy scouts and troop leaders have recently returned from a huge, national gathering where they had a chance to learn new things, meet new people and have lots of fun. The ...
Jamboree woes a lesson for area Scouts Toledo Blade
Is the Boy Scouts of America public or private? Enter Stage Right
Concord Monitor - Bradenton Herald - Danville Advocate - all 96 related
10,000 Scouts and Guides are now onsite and are having a great ...
di-ve.com - 18 hours ago
by di-ve.com. England hosts 10,000 scouts and guides from 52 countries for EuroJam 2005, a European Scout Jamboree. The event at Chelmsford is billed as the biggest scouting jamboree in Britain for fifty years. ...
How safe are Utah Scouts on outings?
Standard-Examiner (subscription) - 20 hours ago
By Lynze Wardle. In 42 years with the Boy Scouts, Brent Cragun, 62, estimates he supervised nearly 100 Scouts on as many trips. The Mountain Green resident said he has led Scouts on outdoor adventures ranging ...
The Scouts' hard summer Standard-Examiner (subscription)
STORY OF THE WEEK: Death in the mountains Salt Lake Tribune
Provo Daily Herald - all 5 related
Co-ed Boy Scout group part of broader effort to boost ranks
Fort Wayne News Sentinel - 16 hours ago
BY DANNY SANCHEZ. FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. - (KRT) - Sierra White occasionally wears a uniform to her high school, prompting strange looks from others. "They're like, `Wow, are you a Girl Scout or a Boy Scout?' and I tell them `I'ma Boy Scout,'" she said. ...
Southeast Boy Scouts Council looks at merger Juneau Empire
all 2 related
Scouts hold to the past while leaping into the future
Fairfield Daily Republic - Jul 25, 2005
By Claire St. John. FAIRFIELD - Those sepia images of Beaver Cleaver-looking Boy Scouts canoeing on a lake or glowing Girl Scouts learning how to bake and decorate cakes still apply today. Modern scouting, with ...
Thoughts about the jamboree
The Free Lance-Star - 18 hours ago
T HE IDEA OF IT all seemed intriguing: Nearly 40,000 Boy Scouts from all over the world gathered in one spot to celebrate Scouting. Ten days of activities, camaraderie and merit badges--sounds like a hearty time. ...
ACLU goes after the Boy Scouts
WEBCommentary - 9 hours ago
The ACLU pretends to fight for our rights but in reality is the biggest threat to freedom this side of al-Qaeda. The American Civil Liberties Union, a defender of Islamic terrorists and champion of the North ...
Two Horicon scouts earn Eagle honors
Beaver Dam Daily Citizen - 11 hours ago
By CONNIE DORNFELD/Staff Reporter. HORICON - Ryan Bennett, son of Andy and Jill Bennett, and Eric Duellman, son of Tim and Joan Duellman, received the highest rank conferred by the Boy Scouts of America during ...
Bentonville Scout meets president
Benton County Daily Record - 14 hours ago
By Tonya McKiever Staff Writer tonyam@nwanews.com. BENTONVILLE Mark Shewmaker had just one word to describe how he felt when he learned he would stand near President Bush last week at the Boy Scout Jamboree in Fort. AP Hill in Virginia. The word? ...
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I received a new recruiting DVD from the BSA this week. The package is called "In the Scout Zone."
The DVD consists of five videos:
1) Scout Zone Music Video ("Scouts can show their friends this high-energy video of Scouting activities to encourage them to join").
2) Recruit a Friend ("This video on boy-to-boy recruiting will help young Scouts know what to say to their friends about their adventures in Scouting").
3) Troop Open House ("This presentation on the best methods of conducting a troop open house will help you sell the "outing" in Scouting").
4) Webelos to Scout Transition ("This program focuses on the importance of Webelos to Scout transition").
5) What Patents Say ("Show these testimonials to parents of prospective Scouts to help explain the value of Scouting for their boys").
The Music Video is pretty good. It consists of non-stop outdoor action, no talking.
The "Recruit a Friend" video has that Ned Flanders quality that religious conservatives exhibit when trying to be hip, but it consists of role-playing scenarios that are reasonably realistic. The basic idea is to
a) talk about what you do on campouts, and then
b) invite them to a meeting.
I always tell my Scouts NOT to ask their friends "Do you want to join Boy Scouts?" The correct question is "Do you like to go camping?" Then tell them that you go camping once a month, then tell them what you have done in the last couple months, THEN tell them that you camp with a Scout troop (after they ask).
The bulk of this video correctly concentrates on anticipating "objections." These include:
a) Not enough time to be a Scout
b) Its kind of nerdy / Isn't Scouts really strict?
c) The uniform (with the suggestion "Tell them we just wear it for meetings")
d) It costs too much
e) Not so sure ("Tell them they can come to 'the Scout Zone' as a guest, and they can come along on a weekend trip before they sign up")
One of the Scouts (the one whose eyes follow the tele-prompter and moves his lips as the other one talks) appears to be wearing the new "Boy Scout Action Shirt" which is basically a breathable nylon-blend version of the "class A" shirt but without the patches. I had only seen photos of this on the BSA Website, and I did NOT realize how close the actual color is to the indoor "field" uniform!
https://scoutnet.scouting.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=APPAREL&C3=ASHIRTS&C4=&LV=3
The most interesting video to me was the third one, "Troop Open House." This consists of three stages:
Step 1: The Troop Rally
Step 2: Personal Phone Call
Step 3: The Open House
Step 1: The Troop Rally
The potential recruits first "answer questions" on the "High Adventure Survey." This looks like a checklist with photos showing high-adventure activities in which they may be interested, with spaces for their addresses, etc. The video reports that up to 60% of the boys who fill out the survey indicate a positive interest in joining a Scout troop!
Skeptics will point out that those who are not interested will not fill it out, making the 60% figure artificially high. However, my experience is that 50% of the 6th grade audiences for my own recruiting presentation usually take the time to sign a list after the presentation. The cliche that Scouting is not interesting to "modern day kids" simply is not true IF you present Scouting as high adventure.
The Troop Rally is different from my recruiting presentation in that the high-adventure toys are set up outside of the school (or other youth venue). This theoretically allows the Scouts to get some hands-on experience with the equipment IF you have enough adults and Scouts free during the day. The video portrays about six potential Scouts and at least the same number of adults at the various outdoor activity stations, but the real ratio outside a school would probably be closer to 50:1, unless you can somehow limit it only to 6th-grade boys.
The video also pictures the adults and Scouts conducting the Troop Rally WITHOUT Scout Uniforms. Some of them wear olive-drab nylon shorts (as I suggest) but we always wear the BSA Scout shirt (minus the dress-designer red shoulder loops).
There seems to be a conscious decision throughout the videos in this recruiting package that the dorky BSA uniform hurts recruiting efforts. Of course the BSA still remains clueless that the answer lies in using the uniform as a recruiting tool by designing it for high adventure OUTDOOR WEAR, as William Hillcourt always suggested. This could be as easy as allowing patches on the new official BSA tan "lightweight, breathable, button-down collar 'Action Shirts' with wicking capabilities and a bi-swing back with mesh inserts." Something this good must have come from Philmont.
Step 2: Personal Phone Call
This, I think, is the most important step of the process. If you don't call the parents, it doesn't matter how much the potential recruits enjoyed the presentation: they will NOT show up to your next troop meeting.
What the video does not tell you is that even though 50-60% of the boys will indicate that they are interested in joining Scouts, getting through their parents' answering machines and resistance can be a brick wall. My experience is that I lose at least half of my potential recruits at this stage.
If you don't hold your recruiting presentation as soon as possible after school starts in the autumn, the loss will be much higher, with the usual objection (if you can get past the answering machine) being that their son's first report card has caused them to limit his extra-curricular activities. If you miss September, consider holding it for both 5th and 6th graders just before school lets out for the summer.
Step 3: The Open House
The video shows the troop going all-out with photographs and various presentations. This looks like a good idea. We usually just have our SPL give a "what to bring to camp next week" presentation. My experience is that if you get them to the meeting, they will all usually sign up.
HOWEVER, when the parents are present it is NOT a good idea to show off all of the expensive toys again. Last November I lost a few potential Scouts during this presentation when their parents decided that Scouting would be too expensive.
Since then I have been shopping in thrift stores and I have purchased a complete set of second-hand boots, non-cotton clothes (including polar fleece), and camping equipment. To each one I have affixed an over-sized price tag with the actual cost (usually $3 - $5). The message should be "wear whatever you already own to your first campouts, but when you decide to buy stuff, this is what you can get real cheap."
The video also suggests what I have found to be very important: schedule a campout within a week of the "rally." Get them out in the woods right away.
The DVD package also includes a new 3" round "Recruiter" patch. I suggest that you stock up on the out-going 3" recruiter patches so that you have three different patches, which you can tier as follows:
Recruiter Strip = for recruiting one new Scout
Old 3" round Recruiter Patch = for recruiting a total of two new Scouts
New 3" round Recruiter Patch = for recruiting a total of three new Scouts
Patrol Leader Badge = for recruiting a total of four new Scouts
That may motivate your patch collectors and natural leaders, but I have found out that the real "coin of the realm" is Reeses Cups! When a Scout brings a friend to one of our meetings or a campout they each get a Reeses Cup. They don't have to be serious about joining, but if they do, the whole Patrol gets an additional Reeses Cup, because after all, it takes a village :-/
For a proven INDOOR recruiting presentation, see The Inquiry Net:
http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm
Kudu
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Scouts-L.Org has a "Random Scouting Quote" at the bottom of the page. You can hit "refresh" to scroll through them:
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Trevorum writes:
> NJ, I appreciate the empathy. Really. But I have never been made to feel
> like a 3rd (or 2nd) class Scouter (except perhaps by those on either end
> of the extremist spectrum - from Rooster on the right to Kudu on the left -
> who for different reasons think I and other UUs should be BSA pariahs
> because of our faith).
As a member of the UUA, I don't understand the accusation.
My view on the UUA's problems with the BSA is that the BSA is dominated by conservative churches for a reason. I would like to see a church historian examine the history of the UUA's relationship with the BSA. My impression (not based on any facts) is that most liberals simply do not relate to ongoing citizenship training that involves getting their knees dirty around a campfire once a month. Therefore, liberal institutions tend not to sponsor Scouting which in turn leads to the domination of the BSA by conservative churches.
> Kudu on the Left
You will have to look elsewhere for a leftist icon :-/ I do object to BSA's neo-conservative values. Neo-conservatives differ from true conservatives in that they want the government to favor (and often fund) values based on a selective literal reading of the Bible. Liberals and leftists are opposed to these specific policies, but they share with neo-conservatives the desire for the BSA to retain its monopoly on Scouting.
Therefore, in American Scouting, the opposite of right-wing politics is not the left, but libertarianism: "Free Minds, Free Markets!"
I would also point out that the greatest damage done to the BSA's program (as reflected in membership decline) was not the current religious intolerance toward girls, gays and the godless, but the 1972 progressive movement that undid everything that William Hillcourt built. While Hillcourt's outdoor and uniform methods were eventually restored, his first Method of Scouting ("A Game, NOT a Science) was not, which leads to a lot of the rigid thinking we see in Scouting these days.
So, to reply to SemperParatus's original post in this topic, I would beg the question. I agree with Bob White that the BSA will change its values about the same time as the Sun becomes a Red Giant. Given the popular vote in the last two presidential elections, it might take slightly less time to challenge the BSA's monopoly on Scouting.
In most Western democracies, gays in Scouting is a non-issue. As I understand it, this is true even for religious Scouting associations such as the Christian "British Boy Scouts."
In a free-market America, an alternative to the BSA would probably conform to this international standard of Scouting. Similar policies are already common in most American youth programs (the Girl Scouts, the Boys & Girls Clubs of America, Big Brothers Big Sisters, Campfire USA, etc.).
More important to me is the issue of "Duty to God." As others have pointed out, Baden-Powell's Scout Law does not include an equivalent to "reverent" (or "brave"). His Scout Promise does not include "morally straight" either.
According to tradition, B-P wrote a Scout Promise called the "Outlander Promise" for cultures (such as Buddhist Burma) that are not based on deism:
On my honor I promise to do my best:
To render service to my country;
To help other people at all times;
To obey the Scout Law.
I would use that as an alternative Promise. However, when I proposed establishing an alternative Scouting association at my Unitarian-Universalist church, my minister insisted on using Baden-Powell's traditional Promise:
On my honor I promise that I will do my best:
To do my duty to God and my country;
To help other people at all times;
To obey the Scout Law.
The point is if a young atheist is challenged by a neutral Scoutmaster to define the God that he does not believe in, then he has "done his best" and is headed down a road of spiritual inquiry. Scouting as a game is all about indirect methods. Sometimes these are the boys who return ten years later to tell you they are now a minister, priest, etc.
If my views on religion in Scouting are viewed by other UUs as "the end of the extremist spectrum" it is only because liberals are so accustomed to the religious policies of the BSA that they can not imagine freedom of choice in the context of Scouting.
Kudu
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> Also, is there a BSA form used as a checklist for planning a patrol
> campout? We have put together one for our patrols to use but since
> BSA has so many forms, I thought there might be one.
What you are looking for is training, rather than a form.
Everyone has perfectly logical reasons as to why Patrols no longer hold Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts, but I suspect that the real reason is that (since the Post-Hillcourt, 1972 emergence of "Leadership Development" as a separate "method" of Scouting) we no longer train Patrol Leaders how to do these things: You get what you train for.
If you are using the Patrol Method, then you know that every Troop campout is really a bunch of simultaneous Patrol Campouts. Try separating the Patrol sites farther away from each other so that they are truly independent.
Quartermasters are the most important factor. Our Troop uses multiple "Troop Quartermasters," one in each Patrol, so that each Patrol's Quartermaster is responsible for his own Patrol and earns leadership credit towards advancement.
When a single Patrol goes car-camping (with two adults) there is no difference from a Troop Campout. The adults camp at a discreet distance from the Patrol's campsite.
When our "Redskins" Patrol went camping without adults, they would backpack from their houses to a wooded area a mile away. This eliminated the need for automobiles and adults. They packed light, and relied on spearing rabbits and squirrels to extend their Campbell's Pork & Beans, the Patrol's favorite food. The Patrol utilized the Australian Aborigines' method of using a piece of wood as an extension of their arms to increase the force of their hunting spears, a technique that the twelve year-old Patrol Leader found in Baden-Powell's "Scouting of Boys." They also baked their eggs by pricking a small hole in the small end, rolling them into a ball of mud and placing them in the coals of their campfire for a couple of minutes, a technique that they learned from a biography of Dan Beard. See Scouter Magazine, Issue #5 (Item #9984):
http://www.scouter.com/catalog/backissues/default.asp
If your Junior Leaders have already memorized the Troop Junior Leader Training (JLT) video tape to the point that they chant along with the sound track, then consider occasionally running a Patrol Leader Training (PLT)course instead. "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" was written by William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, and it is a PLT course for teaching Patrol Leaders how to run a Patrol, as opposed to JLT which teaches abstract managerial skills.
This course is organized in the form of a "Green Bar Patrol" with the Scoutmaster as Patrol Leader, the SPL as Assistant Patrol Leader, and the remaining Junior Leaders as Patrol members. The Green Bar Patrol holds a Patrol Meeting every month for six months. The training covers everything from actually making a Patrol flag, to organizing Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts. The course culminates in a Patrol campout.
I have updated the reading assignments and references to reflect the page numbers of the current BSA Scoutmaster and Patrol Leader handbooks. See The Inquiry Net:
http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar
I have also scanned the old Gilwell Patrol Leader Training course, if anyone wants to use it Email me and I will clean up the optical scanning for you first, see:
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Kristi,
I used ellipses to indicate that I was replying to only part of the quote.
I have re-read your posts a couple of times and I can't figure out what you are trying to say. Is it your position that handing out "caseloads" of ice and water to 40,000 Scouts justifies making them keep their shirts on?
That seems odd, since you and others are saying that the Scouts are to blame for their own heat sickness because they refused to drink.
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> "...the Scouts were told they could remove their uniform shirts if they
> had another shirt underneath - a rarity for an event as important as a
> presidential visit, most Scouts said." It seems to me that no one was
> overlooking the problem of the heat. Kristi
Except for Scouts who don't wear TWO shirts to stand in the sun for three hours in the upper 90s and high humidity. God forbid that THEY take their shirts off for an event as important as another presidential no-show.
> I'm not surprised all of this "bad press" is spewing out of the liberal media.
Fox News is reporting that the liberal media created the 300 sick Scouts with Photoshop!
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> If saluting in uniform with hats on outdoors (which I'm sure it probably was)
> was in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916, then it's okay now!
BSA uniform hats were worn INDOORS as well, but this was back in the days when hats were more common and everyone knew the rules.
In fact, the BSA went to considerable effort to update the photographs and drawings of Scouts and Scouters wearing hats indoors when the "field cap" replaced the campaign hat.
For a collection of 35 photographs and drawings from BSA Handbooks showing Scouts and Scouters wearing hats indoors, see:
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I enjoy media hype, and what's not to like about Harry Potter?
I didn't start reading it until I discovered how many of my Scouts had read the entire series not once but many times. Scouts I never suspected of having read a book :-/
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As adults we should pretend to be courteous and kind.
Making public accusations about Scouts, pretend or otherwise, is neither.
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And just to be fair, why not censor the pro-bigot stuff too?
http://www.scouter.com/books/shop.php?k=get+off+my+honor&mode=Books
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John, are you still reading? How did your son's crossover ceremony go?
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> Everyone who signed an adult application pledged to abide by BSA
> rules and regulations --
Not so fast. We agree to abide by rules and regulations that the BSA discourages us from learning. If you want to actually read them, then you have to make an appointment with your Scout Executive to view them (eyes only) at your local Scout HQ under someone's supervision.
Actual sentences taken from these semi-secret official rules appear as bold-faced print in the publications that we are actually allowed to view freely.
The reason for all the secrecy might be because the BSA is ashamed to allow their "policy, procedures, or guidelines" to see the light of day. Or it might be because, like the Insignia Guide, they are so poorly written that if you parse them carefully they could mean whatever you want them to mean.
> then you should do the honorable thing and resign.
Well, no matter where we stand on this issue, I'm sure that we can ALL agree that the SPIRIT of the law is that we should be intimidated by mean-spirited old men at BSA National Supply who wear fluorescent green and orange polyester golf clothes to work and want us to wear an over-priced indoor hot house uniform just the way the dress designer Oscar de la Renta designed it a quarter of a century ago :-/
I'm just saying that the LETTER of the law is not so clear.
For instance, FScouter says that obviously "ADULTS may wear the ADULT universal hat pin" means that "there is no such thing as a hat pin restricted to adults only."
Do you agree, Fred?
If not then FScouter may be allowing Scouts to wear the adult hat pin and therefore running his own Scouting program. Perhaps you should tell him to do the honorable thing and resign!
If you agree with the commonsense meaning of the rule, then perhaps you should alert the BSA that all of the Scouts in the Boy Scout Handbook wearing hat pins are ignoring BSA policy, procedures or guidelines (and the Insignia Guide certainly qualifies as an official statement of BSA policies) so they are running their own Scouting program, and should do the honorable thing and resign!
Or maybe it is the publishers of the Boy Scout Handbook who are ignoring BSA policy, and you should tell them to do the honorable thing and resign!
Oh intolerance, where is thy sting? :-)
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> The Insignia Guide is written for those that care about the uniform
> and want to wear it correctly.
Those who care about the uniform wear it the way that it SHOULD be designed.
I once shared a sewing machine in Ely, Minnesota with the executive in charge of the insignia of the BSA Boy Scout Division. I was surprised to find out he and a couple of the most senior executives in Irving Texas had unsuccessfully tried to get the Supply Division to introduce official nylon cargo "zip-off" Scout pants. I would not have learned that if I hadn't been wearing my Scout Shirt and olive-drab zip-offs to a national training course :-/
> There is no such thing as a hat pin restricted to adults only. Refer to
> the Insignia Guide.
Silly me. When I read "The large pin also may be worn only by boys....Adults may wear the adult universal hat pin...." I jumped to the conclusion that the large pin is only for boys and the "adult" universal hit pin is only for, um, adults!
Which only goes to show that if you read the Insignia Guide closely enough, parsing it for loopholes, a sentence can mean almost anything :-/
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> If I follow you, viewing atheists as spiritual beings would defeat the
> atheists intended definition and would be more offensive and demeaning
> than the former exclusionary goal.
Fuzzy: Scouts don't have to know how you view them :-/
I've only known eight self-proclaimed atheist Scouts, but they all were pretty sharp and included three of my Senior Patrol Leaders. None of them were easily "offended or demeaned," nor did they have an "intended definition" beyond a straightforward disbelief in supernatural forces.
All things considered, young atheists would rather play dodge ball.
Spiritual beings don't all have supernatural qualities. I'm thinking of Carl Sagan's descriptions of reverence as the awe and wonder that mathematicians and scientists feel in the joy of creating a new equation or theory. I also use Sagan's quotation of what he called Einstein's paraphrase of Spinoza's definition of God "as the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe."
After the first Scoutmaster Conference in which a Scout defines the God that he doesn't believe in, I ask him to explain what an atheist would find wrong with the natural law guy.
This understanding of God is usually called "pantheism" which is also the term sometimes used to describe the Scouting theology of Baden-Powell and the writings of his cleric father, see:
http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm
I'm not sure that the elder Baden Powell would agree:
http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/pantheism.htm
At any rate, if you don't get into a contest of wills with boys, they usually move on to new interests. I haven't yet encountered any young atheists that stuck with it for more than six to eight months.
> Understanding and accepting the moral imperative probably should
> be the goal.
I'm not familiar with "the moral imperative."
I use "Roses & Thorns" at every campout. In Scoutmaster Conferences I test the Scout's UNDERSTANDING of the words in the Oath & Law by asking what they DO.
Beyond that, the only Scouting that I know how to do is outdoor Advancement. The "big questions" come from the awe and wonder of encountering the forces of nature, and the experience of sometimes "helping other people at all times."
Baden-Powell's "Religion of the Backwoods" and "Practical Christianity" coupled with William Hillcourt's explanation of the Patrol Method provides what I consider to be the Scouting experience.
The Scouts draw their own conclusions.
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The "Insignia Guide" is what Uniform Police usually refer to when explaining why you can't wear outdoor pants (such as olive drab BDUs or "zip-offs") with the BSA shirt.
If all of the Scouts wearing hit pins in the official "Boy Scout Handbook" are wearing the adult pin, then you can't say that BSA headquarters takes what the "Insignia Guide" has to say about hat pins very seriously, can you? :-/
I like the 1st Class reproduction hat pin myself. It can be painted green to conform to the Scoutmaster hat pin of the same era. Assistant Scoutmaster pins were red. Field Commissioner pins were baby blue, Council Commissioners were dark blue (almost purple). Patrol Leader's pins were silver. See:
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> In other words, the only pin youths can wear on the campaign hat is
> the First Class pin
Don't worry about the so-called "Insignia Guidebook." Nobody pays attention to that stuff except cranky four-beaders and people on the Internet.
Look at the Scouts wearing hit pins in the official Boy Scout Handbook, and you will see that they are ALL wearing the adult hat pin :-/
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> I also agree that the BSA is more interested in 'spirituality' than in
> 'religion'.
I say just the opposite. If the BSA was spiritual, they would see atheist children as spiritual beings.
> We try to hold boys to the 12 Laws and the Oath.
That would work better if William Hillcourt's original first Method of Scouting was restored, "The Scout Way: A Game, Not a Science." The problem is that "Duty to God" in the BSA is a fundamentalist moral absolute, and not the goal of a game.
> Wouldn't it make more sense for us to evaluate youth and leader's
> spiritual growth based on that sort of standard RATHER than
> basing it entirely on self-applied labels- whether the label is 'Catholic',
> 'Buddist', or 'Atheist'?
You mean using the Scout Oath & Law as the "standard"? The problem is that they can be interpreted in different ways, so who exactly is qualified to evaluate? My answer is that what we should be evaluating is the Scout's UNDERSTANDING of the Oath and Law, and to that end I involve them in the process using the "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt":
http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/spirit
To me the important part of the Scout Oath is the promise to "do my best." Atheist Scouts tend to be more honest than Scouts would couldn't care less, but they can be just as lazy and need to do their best to define the God that they don't believe in.
> And, since at least some part of our on-going insistance on religion
> is because of the large number of churches that support the program,
> would'nt we still be keeping them pretty happy?
That is the million dollar question: exactly what goes on in the Religious Relationships Committee? I think we have to take the mega-religions that control it at their word, they enjoy being mean-spirited, and kicking atheist kids out of Scouting IS what keeps them "pretty happy."
As long as those who feel otherwise continue to try to change the BSA from within and do not set off to create alternative Scouting associations, the religions that make up the vast majority of Religious Relations Committee will remain "pretty happy" :-/
Double Postings?
in Forum Support & Announcements
Posted
Both of my double postings also had exactly the same time stamp:
Posted: Sunday, 8/21/2005: 12:45:18 AM
And I didn't hit the send key twice.
Since then the duplicate has been removed:
http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=106568&p=6
http://tinyurl.com/dzaej