Kudu

Good news (if your account of the Patrol Method section is accurate). My printing was prior to 2008. The "Patrol Method" section beginning on page 53 was about matching "adult leadership styles" to the "needs of the patrol/troop/group," and included the example of adults telling random Scouts when it was time to put out a campfire. Patrol Leaders were NOT mentioned, only generic "boy leaders," and the formula "patrol/troop/group" was used rather than "Patrol." I will add this to our recent victory in the introduction of an outdoor uniform (which took ten years) in the column of "Why Discussion Group Diatribes Work"! Kudu

The "context" of what appears elsewhere means nothing. People go to training because they can't be bothered with reading the Scoutmaster's Handbook. I would be surprised if more than 10% of all Wood Badge participants (let alone basic training participants) have actually sat down and read it cover to cover. I said: "ALL Holders of the Wood Badge are grossly incompetent because they see absolutely nothing wrong with that [the Patrol Method Session is about "adult leadership styles" theory rather than the Patrol Method]. Course Directors are the worst in that regard." In what John-In-KC characterizes as my "year and a half diatribe" about it, only one reader (Eamonn), acknowledged that he had even read my three points, but he indicated that he could not be bothered to sit down and read the session in order to confirm or deny them. All Holders of the Wood Badge (especially Course Directors) are grossly incompetent because they could not care less that: 1) The entire Patrol Method Session of Scoutmaster & Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training does not include ANY mention of a Patrol Leader. 2) It gives an example of the Patrol Method as the "adult leadership style" of telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire. 3) The Patrol Method Session emphasises at every mention of the word "patrol," that the term "patrol" is the same as "troop" or "group" by using the formula "patrol/troop/group." "Of course we use the 'Patrol Method:' bypassing our Patrol Leaders is the 'adult leadership style' that best matches 'the needs' of our patrol/troop/group!" Kudu

Tahawk writes: Because you said that all Wood Badgers, especially Course Directors for some reason, are grossly incompetent for "see[ing] nothing wrong" with YOUR view of the SMST syllabus, that charge awaits proof that: 1) all Wood Badgers know of the supposed language, in context... I can see the weasel wheels turning at top speed already: You can prove ANYTHING through "context." My three observations are specific to the Patrol Method Session of Scoutmaster & Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training: 1) The entire session does not include ANY mention of a Patrol Leader. 2) It gives one example of the Patrol Method as the "adult leadership style" of telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire. 3) (Except for one instance where the term "Patrol" refers to a group of adults sitting around a table), it emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the term "Patrol" is the same as "Troop" or any other "group," with the formula "patrol/troop/group." Wood Badge sucks because it changes the meaning of the term "Patrol Method" from Patrol-based Scoutcraft adventure to teaching Troop-based business manager theory: "Of course we use the 'Patrol Method:' bypassing the Patrol Leaders is the 'adult leadership style' that best matches 'the needs of our patrol/troop/group'!" Kudu

Tahawk writes: So you are the only one who has noticed this language and so you make a point of pointing it out to the trainees - probably phrased something like your posts here? You mean follow the BSA script, but then explain to everyone why it sucks? No. What is the point of going off the reservation at the Council level? Nobody there can influence national policy. Tahawk writes: And if you are the only one who noticed, all the other trainers are like me - continuing to teach that the patrol has a separate identify and activities, led by the PL? Yes, I have noticed that most trainers teach what they THINK must be in the course outline. I am the one who follows the script. It is in my own words, but anyone from the Training Committee who sits in the back of the room with the course outline can follow along point by point by point. At the Council training level I am predictable. Tahawk writes: And Rick, my notes were based on the syllabus. In that case you already know that the meat of the "Patrol Method" session is a leadership theory in which the adult matches his or her "adult leadership style" to the "needs of the group." It is all very generic, the message being that the same process works for all groups. At one end of the scale is the "patrol/troop/group" that "needs" to be directed by the adult (illustrated by the adult telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire). At the other end of the scale is the more autonomous "patrol/troop/group" that needs little or no direction from the adult. I use what I call the "Socratic Trick Question Method," in which at the end of every couple paragraphs of the BSA script, I ask a random participant an exaggerated trick question to see if he or she understands what I just said. It sounds like that might take more time, but I can get through the material more quickly if the participants are paying attention to every point because one of them will soon be called on. When I get to the end of the Patrol Method session script I say "OK, put your pencils down." I tell them how many minutes are left in the time allotted for the session, and ask "Now how are you going to match these "adult leadership styles" to the "needs" of your own Patrols next week?" Then I give a historical overview of Baden-Powell's and Bill Hillcourt's definitions of Patrols as being defined by hiking and camping without adult supervision (to everyone's horror), and then my own experience with such Patrols (both as a Scout and as an adult leader). Then I give my own recommendation: Wood Badge Patrols are spaced Baden-Powell's 300 feet apart, simply match your "adult leadership style" to the "needs of each patrol/troop/group" by physical distance: Inexperienced or untrustworthy Patrols close the the adults, and truly autonomous Patrols B-P's "Wood Badge distance" apart. So as far as the participants are aware, the theory of "adult leadership styles" is consistent with the history and tradition of Scouting, and what they can do next week with the Scouts in their own Troops. I agree with you, Tahawk, the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster-specific training SHOULD be about "each patrol has a separate identify and activities, led by the PL." But it's not. Kudu

BadenP writes: IMHO, it is not Wood Badge that is at fault but the laziness and lack of commitment of time and necessary training of a growing number of leaders. We can't change human nature: If it wasn't for laziness, humans would never have invented the wheel and the remote control To answer the topic question: The problem with Wood Badge is that we moved from Bill Hillcourt's Scoutcraft model: Leadership = Our Physical Relationship to Nature to the White Stag model: Leadership = A Leadership State of Mind. Many Wood Badge courses still space the Patrols properly, approximately Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet apart. That is why so many participants leave Wood Badge feeling that they have experienced the Patrol Method for perhaps the first time in their lives. Because they, um, have. But that distance (The Patrols' Physical Relationship to Each Other) is NEVER pointed out, so they attribute their Patrol Method experience to having achieved the "Leadership State of Mind." My work would be done if Wood Badge took 10 minutes to point out to the participants the physical distance between their Patrols, and to require them to write that down as the IDEAL. Not required as Baden-Powell insisted, mind you, but the ideal. Something they might try at least once in their lives just to see what happens when their Troop's most competent Scout Patrol camps the same way the adult leaders did at Wood Badge. Once you define the Patrol Method IDEAL in terms of Physical Relationships (distance - as all Scouting in the world did before White Stag), then the theory will follow. Kudu

Tahawk writes: If you are, as you claim, the only person to have read the offending language, how is that language damaging the training process? Why are you publicising the offending language? Because when I staff Council-level training, I follow the BSA's script. If I do not agree with the BSA's program I still follow the script (not my "notes"), but I seek change by discussing it in public forums. Contrary to general opinion, the BSA does read this stuff and it does sometimes incorporate into the program ideas advanced by outspoken critics like me, even though our ideas are savagely attacked by Holders of the Wood Badge who use personal attacks to defend bad BSA policy. The new outdoor Uniform is a perfect example. Tahawk writes: For now, the very Heart of Darkness in your world, National Council, says this about the Patrol Method: The topic is training, not the pretty words in the printed literature so I won't reply line by line, but I note three things. 1) The fake Baden-Powell quote is the same fake Baden-Powell quote used at the beginning of the Patrol Method session of SM-specific training. To answer the topic question: The fake quotes sprinkled throughout printed BSA literature reflect the lack of familiarity of our indoor office manager training gurus with what Bill Hillcourt called "Real" Scouting. 2) The following clearly indicates that the purpose of regular elections is to encourage very rapid turnover: "To give more youths the opportunity to lead, most troops elect patrol leaders twice a year. Some may have elections more often." To answer the topic question: Six month election cycles is why "Real Patrols" are no longer defined by a Patrol Leader's ability to lead regular Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts without direct adult supervision. This allows White Stag to end position-specific training for Patrol Leaders so that generic training can concentrate on indoor manager skills rather than on applied Scoutcraft adventures. 3) The duties of the Patrol Leader listed could only warm the heart of an indoor office manager. To answer the topic question: Before White Stag Wood Badge, a Patrol Leader's training focused on leading Patrol Hikes without adult supervision. The Patrol Leaders duties therefore included "Scoutcraft knowledge," PATROL HIKES, and Patrol activities. Listing only "Troop activities" is the "Troop Method." I wrote: If I remember correctly the Troop that Tahawk belonged to as a Scout did not use Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course. Likewise when he became an adult leader he did not follow the BSA program either. So of course he would not address the specific issue of White Stag's destruction of Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training, even though he is old enough to have experienced it directly. To which Tahawk replies: Patrols in that troop were required to have patrol campoutS AND hikeS over and above troop outings. The point of Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course is to lead these Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts WITHOUT ADULT SUPERVISION. This was also emphasised in the Handbook for Scoutmasters. This is why Bill Hillcourt fought so hard against White Stag Wood Badge which dumbs training down so that the little indoor managers can be replaced every six months. As you wrote: In Boy Scouting, adults are present. That is an absolute requirement... PL's did not lead "adult-free" campouts in 1954 when I became a Scout. They did run sorta' adult-free Patrol meetings each and every week (Mom was usually somewhere in the background and would respond to serious crashes.). But there was always an adult (dad) or two on a patrol campout or hike, and we were supposed to have at least six such activities per year... But adults should be present, and that's the law in Boy Scouting. Kudu

Nothing escapes you, does it SR540Beaver? In case anyone was distracted by SR540Beaver's "factual statement," the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster & ASM Specific Training still: 1) No longer includes ANY mention of a Patrol Leader. 2) Gives an example of the Patrol Method as adults telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire. 3) Strongly emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the word "Patrol" means exactly the same as "Troop" or any other "group," as in "patrol/troop/group." Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: "I do happen to be THE NATIONAL EXPERT on the Patrol Method....." When did they add "A Scout is Arrogant" to the law? Yet another example of a Wood Badge personal attack designed to move the topic away from the content of Scoutmaster-specific training. The full quote reads: I do happen to be THE NATIONAL EXPERT on the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster-specific training because apparently I am the only Staffer in the United States who actually sat down and read it. Kudu

Tahawk writes: But crying "ad hominem" is not worthy of you. I merely said ... You support an alternative youth program, "Traditional Scouting"... That is the very definition of an ad hominem attack, Tahawk: On the topic of "How has training changed and is it for the better?" I hold to be grossly incompetent any training that 1) excludes Patrol Leaders from the Patrol Method, 2) gives as an example of the "Patrol Method" an adult telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire (rather than working through a Patrol Leader), and 3) asserts that the term "Patrol" is the same as the term "Troop." Neither you nor any Holder of the Wood Badge can reply to that, so you "bash" me with the accusation of having a vested interest (Traditional Scouting). It is the same logic that White Stag Wood Badge used against Bill Hillcourt: Larson later reported, "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been [Traditional Scouting] and resisted every change. Obviously ad hominem is the only possible response for Holders of the Wood Badge. None of them will yet admit that Scoutmaster-specific training now defines the term "Patrol Method" to mean "adult leadership styles," so they must either remain silent or move the conversation away from the Patrol Method and turn it into the personality of Kudu ("Rick"). As far as "Traditional Scouting" goes: Since the topic of "How has training changed and is it for the better?" does not specify BSA training, I should note that I hold "Traditional Scouting" training to be as incompetent as the BSA (which at least has the courage to publicly hold its Congressional Charter in contempt). It has been a few years sice I last heard from the leader of the second wave of Traditional Scouting. He asked for my input on an exciting new idea, a "Traditional Scouting" course that would introduce [wait for it] [wait for it] [wait for it] [wait for it] a "Leadership Development" classroom course for schools. Yes, Leadership Development, the indoor "Method of Scouting" that destroyed Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Method in the BSA. Now, the third wave of Traditional Scouting comes in the form of a new organization that belongs to a new generation (its oldest kids are just beginning Cubs). Their training committee is composed of ex-BSA three and four bead Wood Badgers whose definition of "Traditional" leadership training is [wait for it] [wait for it] [wait for it] [wait for it] White Stag! Yes, White Stag, the same thing that destroyed Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Method in the BSA. So put me down as: "Not for the better." Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

John-in-KC writes: And you, Sir, have not been doing ad hominem attacks against Mr Mazzuca, Mr Williams and other National staffers these past eighteen months or so? You do not understand the meaning of ad hominem. A good explanation can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem I mention Mr. Mazzuca by name when I discuss his ideas because he is conducting a national media blitz to change Scouting. Have I ever misquoted him? John-in-KC writes: When you post using your expertise, you're one tremendous resource. When you diatribe, which in the past year and a half has been about 85% of the time, you're at best a distractor, and at worst a breaker of the Scout Law (Cheeful, Friendly, Courteous). I prefer "Trustworthy" to "Cheerful, Friendly, and Courteous," which, when used against Scouts and adults, are always subjective and project onto the other person the qualities of which the attacker is guilty. Trustworthy deals with facts that can be verified. That is my reason for participating in public discussions. Your attempt to pick a fight proves my point. Terms like "diatribe" project onto a logical argument your own emotional response. This form of personal attack is INHERENT to White Stag Wood Badge, which also used the accusation against Bill Hillcourt ("I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right"). John-in-KC writes: Help all of us. Post with your expertise, not with diatribes. I do, it is just that Holders of the Wood Badge react emotionally to 85% of my "expertise" because Wood Badge theory does not include what Hillcourt called "Real" Patrols (even though most Wood Badge Patrols are spaced correctly). If I discussed the "Patrol Method" in terms of indoor manager theory or just how cute and adorable those fuzzy "critter" toys can be, then all Holders of the Wood Badge would break into a weepy rendition of "Back to Gilwell" and remark at how Kudu never "distracts" from the discussion and has great "expertise" on the Patrol Method. I do happen to be THE NATIONAL EXPERT on the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster-specific training because apparently I am the only Staffer in the United States who actually sat down and read it. Scouterclaude writes: The question I raised was asking for input on the state of training today and in the past To understand the state of training today and in the past, you must concentrate on how the Patrol Method is presented. It is that simple. As the BSA's fake Baden-Powell quote says: The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method! A. One example is the Patrol Leader handbook. Before White Stag it was a 370 page resource on how to take your Patrol on adventures without adults. If you read the current edition carefully it is mostly about boring things like manager flowcharts and how to sit in a meeting. Since so much effort has been put into moving this discussion away from my original points I will repeat them here: B. White Stag Wood Badge killed Patrol Leader Training in 1972. We no longer offer position-specific training for Patrol Leaders. C. More recently the "Patrol Method" session of Scoutmaster & ASM Specific Training: 1) No longer includes ANY mention of a Patrol Leader. 2) Gives an example of the Patrol Method as adults telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire. 3) Strongly emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the word "Patrol" means exactly the same as "Troop" or any other "group," as in "patrol/troop/group." Kudu

In addition to what you can Google, it should be pointed out that UNLIKE Bill Hillcourt, Baden-Powell did NOT write the practical day-to-day handbooks, which he left to the great Scouting authors such as Roland Phillips and Francis Gidney, the first Gilwell Camp Chief (his pen name "Gilcraft" is also worth Googling). B-P concentrated on the "big picture" and on the small print (the rules and regulations called Policy, Organization, and Rules, with which (unlike the BSA) all members were expected to be familiar: http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_150dpi.pdf Kudu

hotair36, That is why taking Scoutcraft out of Wood Badge destroyed the Patrol Method. If we are not familiar with the term "primitive area," then of course we will always think of the Patrol Method in terms of the Webelos III camping that can be done in family camping venues. If a "park" has a gate then it is NOT a primitive area! In the High-Peaks area of the Adirondack Mountains, a minimum distance of a couple miles between Patrols is required by law. As far as tour permits and insurance goes, my experience has always been that the most independent Patrols (those that camp without adult supervision) get their skills from Boy Scouting, but include non-BSA members. That was how we did it back in the 1960s, and that is my experience today. In the suburbs there are sometimes camping spots to which such a Patrol can hike. More commonly a Patrol will do as we did as a teenager, just get into our cars and drive to the primitive areas. You don't need your Scoutmaster's permission or a tour permit to camp in Patrols that include non-BSA members. As for BSA Patrols, my experience is limited to Patrols that backpack without adult supervision while the adults remain at a basecamp with the less-experienced or less-trusted Patrols. The best solution for Troops without primitive camping experience is to follow Baden-Powell's minimum 300 foot distance between Patrols. Start at 30 feet and work up to 300 based on the actual competency of each Patrol. This can be done in most BSA Council camps, and in the primitive areas of all National Forests. By the way, the rule in most National Forests is 300 feet from the nearest improved area, so if you use a rented campsite as an adult basecamp, Baden-Powell's 300 feet works out perfectly. The "300 foot" (more or less) rule is still used by many Wood Badge courses. It is the reason that participants feel that they have experienced the Patrol Method for perhaps the first time in their lives, but they do not take the experience back to their home Troops because the distance is not pointed out (it does not fit into business management theory). "Gern Badge" would have exactly the same problem if the participants were not forced to concentrate on the actual Scoutcraft leadership techniques being used to move the Patrols every day. Kudu

Tahawk's ad hominem reply proves my point. Now that I have embraced his "dark side" of Scouting, I no longer take the high road. I reply in kind: If I remember correctly the Troop that Tahawk belonged to as a Scout did not use Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course. Likewise when he became an adult leader he did not follow the BSA program either. So of course he would not address the specific issue of White Stag's destruction of Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training, even though he is old enough to have experienced it directly. On the issue of the current Scoutmaster-specific training course excluding the Patrol Leader from the Patrol Method session, Tahawk is the same as ALL Holders of the Wood Badge. He apparently does not see the significance of that, nor the significance of insisting that the words "Patrol" and "Troop" mean the same thing, nor the significance of giving as an example of the Patrol Method an adult leader telling random Scouts when it is time to put out a campfire. The practice of dodging the issue and replying with a personal attack is INHERENT to White Stag Wood Badge. Tahawk's "bashing" accusation is exactly the same as the White Stag accusation that Bill Hillcourt's opposition to the destruction of the Scoutcraft-based Patrol Method was based on a "vested interest." Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

White Stag Wood Badge killed Patrol Leader Training in 1972: Sorry no more position-specific training for Patrol Leaders. More recently the "Patrol Method" session of Scoutmaster ASM Specific Training: 1) No longer includes ANY mention of a Patrol Leader. 2) Gives an example of the Patrol Method as adults telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire. 3) Strongly emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the word "Patrol" means exactly the same as "Troop" or any other "group," as in "patrol/troop/group." ALL Holders of the Wood Badge are grossly incompetent because they see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Course Directors are the worst in that regard. The National Council leadership approved adapting the White Stag leadership competencies for nationwide use. Dr. John W. Larson, by now Director of Boy Scout Leader Training for the National Council, adapted the White Stag leadership development competencies and wrote the first syllabus for the adult Wood Badge program. Shifting from teaching primarily Scoutcraft skills to leadership competencies was a paradigm shift, changing the assumptions, concepts, practices, and values underlying how adults were trained in the skills of Scouting. Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected. Larson later reported, " He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

I'm with Hal on this one. As the BSA's fake Baden-Powell quote says: The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method! Not cooking by Patrols at summer camp is like not playing baseball at the Little League playoffs: "We already play baseball during the regular season where the boys use the ball and bat method. Why not do something a little different at the playoffs?" Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: Any particular reason White Stag wasn't included before? I started adding it after you pointed out that I did not make it clear that I include ALL of the post-Hillcourt WB courses when I talk about the problem of Wood Badge. hotair36 writes: Sounds a lot like the current management and EDGE focus of todays training. So I guess things haven't changed all that much they just have gotten more modern. The point is that the inventors of "Leadership Development" were anti-Scoutcraft, and made it possible to collect an Eagle badge without ever attending a single campout. When Holders of the Wood Badge use the word "modern" they usually mean that it is OK to ignore the Act of Congress which requires the BSA to to "train them in scoutcraft" using "the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916," in exchange for the BSA's lucrative "special rights" monopoly on Scouting. Contrary to your claim, White Stag Wood Badge seemed to believe that the move from Scoutcraft to manager skills was a "paradigm shift": Dr. John W. Larson, by now Director of Boy Scout Leader Training for the National Council, adapted the White Stag leadership development competencies and wrote the first syllabus for the adult Wood Badge program. Shifting from teaching primarily Scoutcraft skills to leadership competencies was a paradigm shift, changing the assumptions, concepts, practices, and values underlying how adults were trained in the skills of Scouting. Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected. Larson later reported, " He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html hotair36 writes: Patrol hikes without adult supervision? What are you people thinking? Two deep leadership is a requirement, along with youth protection training. That is why Wood Badge sucks, hotair36. With 50+ years in the BSA one would think that someone might have mentioned to you that Patrol Hikes without adult supervision were THE GOAL of Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course (which White Stag Wood Badge destroyed), and that unsupervised Patrol Outings are still allowed by the Guide to Safe Scouting. When I took the course, Hillcourt's Patrol Hike and Patrol Overnight were still part of Wood Badge. If Wood Badge had anything to do with real-world leadership, they would include some pointers on how Scouts can do that safely. hotair36 writes: Urban environments generally do not allow for a lot of the outdoor activities "away from the car" unless you get 50 or 100 miles out. Can't do that without a car. Our "Redskins Patrol" (featured in an old issue of Scouter Magazine) used railroad right-of-ways to hike out of our urban environment on unsupervised Patrol Campouts. hotair36 writes: This sort of relates to one of the revised camping MB requirements where (I'm paraphrasing)...The outing in scouting is not dead; it is just a fact of our current society. If you read them carefully, most of the activities listed in that Camping MB requirement have nothing to do with camping, like floating downstream in an inner-tube, riding your bike around for four hours, or rappelling at the mall. That reveals the anti-camping bias of the BSA and why "Gern Badge" would be doomed to a hostile takeover by office "modernists." hotair36 writes: I can't see a patrol campout when the local PD or conservation police or forest preserve district police enforce closing times and curfews...arrested for loitering in the park after 10:30 PM. You really should burn your Wood Badge and get out more often, hotair36! The primitive areas of ALL National Forests (and the primitive areas of ALL of the State Parks in which I have ever camped) do NOT have curfews or ANY rules against Patrols of unaccompanied minors, as long as they camp at least 300 feet from the nearest road, parking lot, or improved campground. Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: Is there any reason to denigrate secretaries? Perhaps you should take up their cause, OGE! I have drafted a letter on your behalf to Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca: Dear Bob, How quickly time passes when you are having FUN! Has it really been 44 years since Wood Badge destroyed the life work of its very first US Course Director, Bill Hillcourt, and told him to just "settle down, everything was going to be all right"? It seems like only yesterday! Well, some people just don't get it, do they? They don't understand leadership! The proof that Bill Hillcourt was WRONG about the Patrol Method is that CEOs really LOVE Wood Badge! As you say, "We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques. " So I had an idea. You know how we could really impress your CEO buddies? Do for the BSA's secretaries what state-of-the-art techniques did for Patrol Leaders! Here's my idea: Hold elections every six months so that the secretaries can vote for who gets to hold the head BSA millionaire Position Of Responsibility! I'm sure that YOU would win, but if you don't its OK, because the one thing that Wood Badge teaches us is how to be a leader! Great idea, huh? Yours in Scouting, OldGreyEagle

Eagle92 writes: I think for scouting the equationshould be the following: Leadership= Applied Scoutcraft + Ability to teach/mentor + basic management skills (i.e. planning and executing events and activities, time management, etc) + Charisma. Time management, Eagle92? Time management? Danger, Will Robinson, DANGER! No, as soon as you break down what makes a good leader into separate management skills, you are inviting "model theory" into the tent. Model theory is what destroyed Wood Badge. The basic idea is that "leadership" is comprised of predictable traits and practices, and if we abstract these "skills" into "key concepts" we can teach them abstractly through "Team Building Exercises." Then any secretary or Boy Scout can learn how to be a "leader." As soon as anybody talks about "Team Building Exercises" Hillcourt's "Real Patrol" is dead. Real Leadership in Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and Bill Hillcourt's "Patrol Method" is based on the simple fact that natural leaders learn how to "plan" by just sitting down and planning for a real event. It is not rocket science to natural leaders. The problem is the invention of Leadership Development, which shifted Scouting AWAY from Scoutcraft so that we could teach EVERY BOY how to be a leader. Before White Stag Wood Badge destroyed position-specific training for Patrol Leaders, the six month course included "planning" a Real Patrol Hike and then "planning" a Real Patrol Campout. By "Real" I mean they actually went on that Patrol Hike and they actually went that Patrol Campout. By "planning" I mean "Just sit down and do it." That is the meaning of "Applied Scoutcraft," just sit down and plan for a REAL event, then use your Scoutcraft skills to GO on a Real adventure (not a Team Building Exercise). How to Plan a Real Patrol Hike: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/3rd.htm How to Plan a Real Patrol Campout: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/6th.htm Eagle92 writes: Let's face it, you can have all the scoutcraft knowledge in the world, but if you don't have the ability to communicate it so that someone can understand, it won't happen. Charisma. That is my entire point, it does NOT happen now. How many Boy Scout Patrols still conduct Patrol Campouts without adult supervision? Or, failing that, at least camp Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet apart? Maybe 1/10 of 1%? The reason is "Leadership Development." Leadership Development is based on the idea that you can teach "Ability to teach/mentor" (EDGE) separately from Scoutcraft, and then the Patrol Leader will use these abstract office manager skills to go hiking and camping. But it seldom happens, does it? When you teach abstract skills you end up with a Webelos III program where the Patrols all camp close together. The proof of that is that 99.9% of all BSA Scout Troops now camp close together like Webelos Scouts As soon as "Gern Badge" teaches "planning and executing events" and "time management" (as opposed to "just sit down and do it"), Holders of the Wood Badge will make up "Team Building Exercises" to teach the "key concepts" and bring his course indoors for PowerPoint, while a BSA millionaire brags about GernBlansten: "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." Eagle92 writes: I will also add that BSA needs a challenge system so that someone who does have the scoutcraft skills can test out of IOLS. That is like saying that BSA Lifeguards need a challenge system so that if they know how to swim they can test out of the parts of BSA Lifeguard Training that involve swimming. No, that is how White Stag hijacked Wood Badge: The idea that Scoutcraft skills (which do include swimming) belong in the Advancement box. Any Scoutcraft course for adults that is not first and foremost a course on how to lead is part of the problem (IOLS), not a part of the solution. There is no Boy Scout Leadership except as it expressed through Applied Scoutcraft. Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: Kudu, give it a rest. Leadership and skills can indeed be taught as separate courses that compliment each other. Only if you dumb the Patrol Method down to its current Webelos III level. SR540Beaver writes: It is foolish to hang the end all and be all of the patrol method on the actual number of feet separating patrols on a campout. Before White Stag Wood Badge destroyed Bill Hillcourt's life work by pretending that Scout leadership could be separated from Scoutcraft, the definition of a "Real Patrol" was very simple: A Patrol that hikes without adult supervision with the goal of camping without adult supervision. Hike = Distance SR540Beaver writes: Your hatred of the current BSA program and WB are legendary here, but getting quite old. You don't have to repeat it in every post as we are all fully aware of your feelings. Since the day that White Stag prepared to hijack Wood Badge, these people have ALL used SR540Beaver's Wood Badge Logic: Personal attacks to shift the discussion from real-world competency to ridicule. Bill Hillcourt was the first victim, and I will not be the last: Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected. Larson later reported, " He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html Kudu

I think it looks very interesting (the link is broken at the moment, otherwise I would add it here). http://tinyurl.com/lxyfvy and then went on to explain that many camps have in-site cooking. But that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a camp that builds the patrol program. The "Patrol program" is just "Let's Pretend" without Patrol cooking. Kudu

Cubmaster Mike writes: Interesting point on patrol QM and scribes and their not qualifying as a POR. I'll have to look that up as to stop it will make very big waves as it has been used to date as a POR requirement. If you have any competent Patrol Quartermasters who actually pack the gear for every campout and then distribute it on the outing as needed, make them all "Troop Quartermasters" with a Patch and POR credit. A good Patrol Quartermaster is more important than an average Patrol Leader, and he certainly does more work than a Troop Bugler or a number of other bogus Troop PORs. Remember that specific POR requirements for advancement were determined by the same White Stag anti-camping guys who also changed advancement so that it was possible to collect an Eagle Scout badge without ever attending a single campout. That is not an exaggeration! Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: OK, Kudu's right, Wood Badge has been hijacked Use the active voice, OGE, not the passive voice: "White Stag hijacked Wood Badge." OldGreyEagle writes: I am talking about Scout Craft only. That WAS the hijack, OldGreyEagle: The idea that Scoutcraft can be separated from Patrol Leadership. That is why Bill Hillcourt fought so desperately against removing Scoutcraft from Wood Badge. That is why SR540Beaver is DEAD WRONG: You can NOT separate Scoutcraft from "Leadership." Leadership skills are fake. If they were "Real" then every Holder of the Wood Badge would brag about how far apart his Patrols camp (or--more radically--how often they hike and camp without adult supervision, as was the "Wood Badge has always been about leadership" standard before White Stag hijacked Wood Badge). Therefore, GernBlansten's description of "Gern Badge" is perfect EXCEPT for the most important thing: What he describes is really just the "right stuff" that White Stag Wood Badge stole from the Boy Scouts: Practical, real-world, Position-Specific Training for Patrol Leaders. Gern Badge is NOT "Scoutcraft" (in the "modern" sense of checking stuff off a list for advancement), moving your Patrol around is LEADERSHIP ITSELF. Leadership = Applied Scoutcraft + Charisma Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

Cubmaster Mike writes: But my point is about the troop guides. We have two new boy patrols. The purpose of the Troop Guide POR is to take one of the most important jobs away from the Patrol Leaders and turn it into a separate Troop-level POR. It is called The Troop Method: It doubles the number of PORs and thereby solves the problem caused by requiring PORs for advancement. The advantage of the Troop Method is that a less competent Scout can serve as Patrol Leader. Of course it means that you must ignore Baden-Powell's minimum standard of 300 feet between Patrols on multi-Patrol campouts (Before PORs were invented in 1965, the Patrol Method was defined by distance from adults, as in "Patrol Hikes" and "Patrol Overnights"). Cubmaster Mike writes: In our troop the patrol method does not work well. We have patrol leaders, but most troop meetings are group based and the only things the patrol leaders do is have the patrol line up behind them at the beginning and end of the meeting. The Old-School solution to your problem is to make sure that these Troop Guides (who appear to the the only Real Leaders in your Troop) become the Patrol Leaders of the New Scout Patrols rather than rotating the position through the new Scouts (which only reinforces incompetency in the name of "learning how to be a leader"). The best way to recognize their job is to follow Baden-Powell's advice: Allow their Patrols to camp further away from everyone else, with the actual distance up to 300 feet determined by their actual real-world competency. That way everyone in the Troop sees the example of what Bill Hillcourt called a "Real Patrol." Your less competent Patrols can then attempt to follow the example of the New Scout Patrols so as to be allowed to camp further from everyone else according to their actual real-world competency. Kudu

If you actually use the Patrol Method as measured by the traditional BSA standards of a "Real" Patrol, the most competent older Scouts should be Patrol Leaders, rather than allowing younger boys to switch every six months so that "everybody gets his turn to be a leader."

I second John-in-KC's idea: Have Scouts cook deserts in Dutch Ovens outdoors and Scouts show off their backpacking toys. Boys Like Food and Toys. As an "old-school" adult presenter, I always had great success implying that Scouting might be a little too scary for them. I raise the Scout handbook over my head and tell them (without a smile) that this is our book of rules, and we have some very strict rules in Scouting: 1) You must carry matches and you must carry a knife. 2) You must know how to do deal with bears and rattlesnakes. 3) You must cook over a fire, and find your way with a map and compass in the woods where there are no foot-trails. 4) You must know how to to be a hero so you can save the lives of your family in case of an emergency. 5) Those are the rules (you must do those things, no exceptions) but you can also optionally swim (only if you want to), shoot rifles and shotguns, bow & arrows, throw axes, paddle a canoe into the wilderness, etc. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm The ideal is to give a recruiting presentation in the school auditorium to sixth-grade boys during school hours, without them knowing ahead of time that it is about "Boy Scouts." I usually brought in 15 Scouts per presentation, but it is too much work for most people. Kudu