Knot Head

There are many movie ideas at this link

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=112410

I once watched 5 8th grade scouts discuss Remember the Titans for 3 hours. I was impressed with the depth of their insight.

We don't use permission slips and instead require each scout to turn in Part A and C of the BSA form (The A,B,C form) each year at re-charter time. If they go to summer or winter camp we collect part B also with the physician signature.

For campouts the check or cash payment is the signup. We call it the show me the money system. Drivers are arranged and confirmed via email by the SPL or ASPL based on the adults that turn in checks to go camping. The SPL assignes scouts to a particluar car and patrols ride together as much as possible.

EDIT - when outfitters require a waiver we have the parents sign them. This is for stuff like climbing, snow skiing, etc.

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We are far from a perfect troop but wow this sounds like a bad road to travel if the Adults are committed to it. Maybe a little training or watching another troop would help.

I wonder if this is because you have a group of "take charge" guys. It took about a year to "train" the adults in our troop to "think boy led" not "adult led". We need to get better but we have made some good progress. When we started adults would just jump in and set up the stove, unpack the trailer, set up the dining fly, etc. They were just used to running things and pitching in to get things done because they are nice helpful guys. Now we try to not just jump in. I mess up sometimes because all week long I'm used to taking charge at work and well... it's hard to switch gears! But the troop culture now is moving steadily towards pulling an adult aside after he takes over and reminding each other hey, we need to let the boys figure this stuff out.

Maybe your guys would respond to some chats about goals... that you can help build responsible adults with some leadership skills if we try the patrol method. This way two or three scouts get to learn responsiblity by planning a menu, purchasing the food, working with patrol mates in setting up and cleaning the cokking gear. Yeah the scouts all have to eat, but they can learn a little something in the process also. Patrols just allow for more "teachable moments" .(This message has been edited by knot head)

West Coast those are great recruiting ideas. Your ideas are great and I plan to mention them to the PLC.

We have had success using Den Chiefs, inviting webelos to a campout with us and also having a couple of eagle scouts visit a webelo meeting meetings to teach them something they think is fun and cool like how to make a stretcher out of a tarp and two poles. The eagles then give them a ride on the stretcher and ask the webelos to see if they can carry the eagle. Webelos also love to get a leg splint put on using sticks and bandanas. We've also shown them a backpack fitted for Philmont, let them put it on to see how heavy it is and then let them see and hold each item while the scouts tell them what it is.

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In our troop you get a patch if you get a guy to join our troop who was not a cross over that resulted from our troops annual recruiting process (campout + pack visits to our meetings). Since new guys that cross over don't count this is typically a guy who joins late. The recent patches were for a guy that wasn't a cub but played baseball with the recruiter. The other was a guy who was a cub but had moved to our area and joined 6 months after crossover. The recruiter had made friends with the new guy at school and invited him to a troop meeting and he joined. The recruiter gets the patch when the new scout reaches tenderfoot.

I think it depends on the troop. Our troop is Church sponsored by a Christian Church but includes some scouts that are Hindu, Jewish, Unitarian and one Eagle Scout who would tell you he is an atheist if you asked him point blank. We dont have a Sunday service on campouts and basically have an opening prayer at meetings and when we leave to go on a campout. The typical prayer is for safe travel, good weather, no injuries, etc. If you and your son choose to stand quietly but not bow your head or close your eyes during this prayer time it would not be a big deal. Thats what a couple of the Jewish scouts and their dads do. Its a mutual respect thing. If youll stand quietly during the prayer we wont force you to bow your head and close your eyes. Thats being reverent, remaining quiet out of mutual respect when a fellow scout is praying.

When new webelos visit our troop we explain our membership diversity to them and their parents. We tell them what our approach is to the budget, camping and religion also. We tell them point blank if you are looking for a troop that emphasizes a Sunday morning service on a campout or promotes a particular faith we may not be the best fit for you. We have a zero tolerance for hazing and promote respect for other scouts opinions as well as their physical possessions. So if it ever became a point of teasing or conflict in our troop the SPL would deal with it. If he wasnt successful the SM would deal with it. Dont get me wrong, some families in our troop are pretty religious, its just that no one views our troop as primarily a religious organization. Im sure there are troops out there that are the opposite of ours where religion is a cornerstone and thats fine.

So look around a find a troop that you fit in with. There are troops out there that emphasize the camping and outdoor aspects of scouting but dont emphasize some of the other aspects. Some emphasize religion, others camping, others leadership. Find a troop you and your son like and then talk to the adult leaders about your concerns.

I dont think rejection is a foregone conclusion. But if you go in guns blazing and want to constantly pick fights, be a militant atheist and constantly try to convert others to your way of thinking, then thats going to generate conflict which can possibly lead to rejection. But the same would be true if you are a militant republican or democrat always itching for a fight on your pet subject or topic.

Anyway, I wouldnt just throw in the towel and say rejection is a foregone conclusion.

Baby steps. At least you got it to 6 on 4!

I'm surprised you have that many adults attending. We NEVER outnumber the scouts. It's 4:1 or 5:1 for a campout depending on how many scouts + gear the cars can carry. With the trailer we can go 7:1 if all the drivers own an 8 person SUV.

At summer camp this year we were 4 adults for 35 scouts and things went great.

We award the polar bear each time a scout is on a campout where the reuirement is met (temp below 32 degrees). So in troopmaster we record how many times you "earn polar bear" but a guy only gets one patch from the troop.

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If this had happened in our troop

I suspect he would have immediately been bounced from the campout for strangling and punching another scout.

There would be an individual BOR for each scout involved. The guys who took the stick need to explain why they did what they did and if in their opinion it is in line with the scout oath. It does not sound very friendly, courteous or kind. Teachab;e moment.

The big guy who threw a punch and strangled a kid is in an entirely different class. He would have at least one BOR and maybe more until he understood the gravity of the situation and why what he did is unacceptable.

1. Until he shows remorse and offers a sincere apology he wont be camping again. He may have to miss a couple of campouts depending on his attitude. He would be on very thin ice in our troop if he had strangled a smaller scout. Very thin ice.

2. Dad would have to accompany him on all future campouts.

3. He is on probation for the rest of his time (or at least a very long time) in the troop. One more fight or incident and hes gone.

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It's too bad some troops make boys wait to advance. It seems like we should applaud a scout's achievement and enthusiasm in the earning a new rank, not discourage it by saying you can only earn one rank per year or some other arbitrary timeline.

I'm with John... it depends.

But as an example I would not let a guy use the same 6 hours of service toward both rank advancement and citizenship in the community (CIC). Now one scout did 30 hours at his church and split it between star advancement (6 hours), CIC (8 hours) with the rest toward school hours (Key Club I think). That was okay by me, to allocate the hours. But, I would not allow him to work 8 hours and count it for 3 different things.

Doing multiple activities while on a campout as mentioned in posts above is just good use of the weekend. You get a couple of nights camped, maybe earn a rank requirement, maybe earn a backpacking & camping MB requirement all on the same trip. It is not "double dipping" in my book to backpack 15-20 miles (backpack MB), demonstrate using the water filter & stove (camping MB); camp two nights (camping MB); idendify plants or animals (rank advancement); participate in a troop event (rank advancement).

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I've come over to the dark side on this one. My iphone is my BSA handbook, camera, flashlight (in the tent), watch and alarm clock on a campout. So if scouts want to bring theirs I allow it with the understanding if it becomes a problem I may take it and keep it in timeout for a while. Most don't bring it but it sure is nice to have them when you are spread out on a campout.

For our annual pot luck the troop buys the main dish and each patrol is assigned something. Ice, desert, side, cups, etc. are assigned to each patrol. We charge for the main dish like $5 a head or something. It's a family night with games and funny awards. The PLC gives awards & so does the committe. Awards vary year to year but it is stuff like loudest snore, best meal, worst meal, hardest to wake up. Then the annual "state of the troop" speeches from PLC and SM.

For COH reception we assign each patrol one item like chips, cookies, 2 liter drink, ice, cups.

It's never been a problem so I guess we're overdue for a bad one where we are short of food.

I kinda like it all. By the time summer is over I'm ready for the cold weather camping and vice versa. Lucky for us on a winter campout it is unlikely to get below 20 at night and that's not too bad with the right gear. In the summer when we camp there is always water involved. Either canoeing, white water or a campsite with a good swim area.

QUOTE: >>>>In my study of troops in our area, I've found the larger troops almost always have a higher attrition rate and lose half of their new guys in the first 2 years.

Unless the troop that the boys liked better is just a total disaster I'd go with the troop the boys liked better. If they like the boys they'll have a better chance to hang in there.

Just my $.02

GKlose posted a good list.

I like Lisabob's post.

For me it's a balancing act. Deciding when to step in and offer discipline, a gentle nudge or a strong suggesstion so things don't totally fall apart and ruin the event. Knowing when to hang back because the mess you see about to happen will be a good learning experience. Teachable moment!

This is not easy to do but sure leads to grow when the adults can get it right. Setting those lines far enough apart that gut guys can learn to drive and correct their course yet enforcing the lines so you don't go headfirst off a cliff. Like teaching a new driver you start in the giant empty parking lot and slowly work their way up to the level of experience needed for downtown traffic.

We go full uniform for scouts and adults (except in summer). But even in summer you need to wear full uniform and bring your book for a BOR or you'll have to reschedule. I can't remember anyone ever having to reschedule. It's just a given. While most guys have real bsa pants it's just not that hard to borrow a pair of pants for a BOR. If a guy can't buy a scout shirt the CO will buy it for him or he can get one from the used clothes bin.

So for us it's not a big stretch to get into full uniform since they are pretty much in it every week anyway. Some guys might wear jeans one week but they know the expectations for a BOR. Since the expectations are plainly laid in our troop it's not asking too much for them to meet them. IMHO.

With that said if your troop's tradition is that jeans are okay then go with it.(This message has been edited by knot head)

The instructors usually teach it on the first campout (March) for the new scouts each year and it is also offered as an option at night at summer camp by summer camp staff. For guys that join during the year we've also had the instructors teach it on a Saturday morning in an ASM's giant backyard. So for us at least it does not have to be done on a campout.

FWIW we don't require the scouts in our troop to carry the card with them to use a knife/axe/saw. I know some troops treat it like a driver's license where you have to have it on you and that's fine if it works for them. But we dont require the card to be physically on the person of the scout using a knife. As a result we dont cut corners off the card either. If a guy breaks a rule well give a warning or just take the knife depending on severity. He would get it back in an hour, a day, after he goes to a BOR or gets recertified depending on the offense. The worst I can recall in my years is taking a knife for the weekend and having a SM conference before they got it back. Its pretty rare to take a knife because were pretty anal about safety issues.

Same song second verse with fireman chit

>>>I also find the Dan Beard programs at some of these camps to be outright scary, the Scouts come back having learned absolutely nothing.

>>>>I would define a mill as a troop (or pack), as one that after a Scout earns a particular badge/patch, they forget it and move on. They do not practice it, they do not live it or use the skills involved with "earning" it. It was just a chek mark on a bigger list of fish to fry. Earned today, forgotten tomorrow.

I've heard our troop referred to as an "eagle factory" before. This year when a cub pack visited the boys were outside demonstrating fire starting, Dutch oven and compass skills to the cubs. The adults were in a Q&A session about annual costs, where do we camp, gear needed, etc. when one Dad asked point blank how do you respond to being called an eagle factory?.

I was glad he voiced the question. Its always good to see how others perceive you.

As a group we told him that we run an active calendar camping 10 months a year for 2 nights and also going to summer camp & winter camp. The boys set the calendar and we try within reason and cost to do what they want where they want. Last year it was snow skiing and white water. This year it will be rock climbing at a school with professional instructor (the adults dont know squat about climbing) and white water again. Basically scouts earn eagle because they hang around and remain active for 4 or 5 years. I think the reason they hang around is they have fun. We try to let the scouts decide as much as possible what our rules are and where we go and the adults herd the cats if they stray too far outside the lines. Basically they also like each other. Kids from band, football, choir and other outdoor activities get along pretty well together. Theyll miss when they need to if they have a game or practice but show up pretty regular in their off season.

If you get 4 merit badges at summer camp and 3 at winter camp for 4 years thats 30 badges. The typical eagle usually has about 25-35 MBs.

Do I think that some of the merit badges they get at summer camp are given away too easy? Sure, but that doesnt mean you cant reinforce those skills on regular campouts using competitions or supervising while scouts teach T21 skills to younger guys.

We also dont let any scout sign off T21 requirements. We do that to ensure quality and that skills are learned before they advance. I know some would say we are missing a good opportunity to be boy led in this area. We just think its important that scouts master a skill before that book is signed so only ASM or SM can sign a book. So the scouts teach the skill and send the new guy to an ASM for review before the book is signed. Likewise we will for instance review eagle required badges that are earned at summer camp. We call it the post camp scoutmaster conference and well quiz a guy on the camping MB if he earned it at summer camp. We wont take it away, but we try to make sure he knows his stuff because we think its important. Now if a kid earns something like indian lore at summer camp well just give credit and move on.

We dont have any 14 year old eagles but we could if a guy was really driven. Typically we get 15 year olds with 4 years of winter and summer camp that get it done and then remain semi-active, or guys that maybe issed a summer camp ot two who wait until they are 17 and a half to get going. Some just wait until they are 17 even though they earned all the required the badges 2 years prior. About 90% of our eagles go to Philmont before they earn eagle.

We have every year a few Life scouts that age out at Life. But thats okay, if they dont want to put forth the effort to get to eagle then were not gonna do it for them. Last Spring a mom saw me at the store and asked if I could call Bobby and get him going on his eagle project. I told her to have him call me. He never did and aged out last month. I hated to see it because he was a good kid but he just never made an effort.

So basically we have fun, do what the guys vote to do and the kids that continue to show up advance, if they remain active long enough they can earn eagle. That has earned us a reputation locally with some as an eagle mill or eagle factory. I just think were active and having fun and guys that stay with it earn eagle.

I would also add that most of these guys get lots of support at home (both time and money support) which of course will help a guy earn eagle. If mon and dad don't support a guy's interest in scouting then the eagle path is gonna be much much harder.

With all that said we are far from perfect and could improve in many areas.

Okay I thought of one more.

At summer camp a scout came to me and complained the MB counselor (18 year old) was using bad language and not teaching. I told him if he wanted to complain to write down what happened and we would go together and file a written complaint talk to the camp director. He didnt back off and went and did write a complaint. Then he, I and the SPL walked to the camp director office. The guy read the complaint and asked the scout a couple of questions. Then he admitted they had gotten complaints the week before. On the way back the scout looked at me as said Mr. J. I went to you because I knew you would know what do, thanks. I got goose bumps and almost a little teary eyed that he had that kind of faith in me. That was cool. Then I reminded him that he was the one that had really taken care of it by wanting a good counselor and filing the complaint. I told him that took guts. He looked over and said, yeah and smiled. Mutual respect. That was cool too.

Bottom line the MB counselor was fired and replaced.

Two things:

1. Introducing guys to outdoor adventure who probably never would have had the opportunity to do these things without scouting. Pioneering, canoeing, white water rafting, backpacking. Many of these guys would not get to do this on their own but the look in heir eyes after the first set of white water rapids or at the end of a 10 mile hike is pretty awesome.

2. Watching the guys that were noob campers not too long ago do everything from decide where to camp, plan menu, buy food, cook food, clean up, help younger guys. Now they are not perfect and need a nudge now and then but when you see a patrol break out the cook gear, cook, eat, and clean up without a single nudge that's cool.

We repeat the Leave No Trace Principle at each meeting and each morning at the flag ceremony on a campout. The adults try to look for ways in the field to encourage the use of the principle in the field. The older guys are starting to do this now too.

Each day we line up and "walk the campsite" and pick up trash.

When we hike/backpack/camp we award "points" to the scout IF they collect more litter off the trail/campsite than the adults. The boys & adults carry a big 2 gallon ziplock bag and collect trash on the trail. At the end of the day we hold this up and show them all the trash the boys missed along the way. Usually the scouts win this competition - which is how it should be. We'll do the same thing at a campsite. They walk the campsite and then we do. If they get more trash than us they get "points" they can redeem for camping trinkets (flashlights, headlamps, compass, caps, etc.). It's like a "game with a purpose" I guess.

It takes awhile but as the older guys start to get it they train the younger guys and it becomes troop culture to LNT.

Our goal on a capout is to "leave a trace" which for us means try to leave it better than you found it.

I kow we could do better but this is one way we try to teach LNT.(This message has been edited by knot head)