Knot Head

We attend a camp that offers both patrol & dining hall and annually let the boys vote on it. They also vote on where to go to summer camp. Apparently they like our council camp since they have voted to return several years in a row and also vote for mess hall. The bad experience (long story) the last time we went elsewhere probably is the cause. Most scouts go four years to summer camp. A few go 5 or 6 that want to take lifesaving or COPE or something like that. The adults step out during the voting meetings the scouts hold and let the SLP run it. We step out in the hope we dont unduly influence the voting. Im sure we influence them on some of their votes on the annual calendar, activities, summer camp, mess hall versus dining hall and other items they decide for themselves. We try not to, but Im sure we influence them in ways we dont even realize.

THis is what we do for our troop.

Primary: email. We encourage scouts with email accounts to sign up for this.

Secondary: website

Late Breaking News (Meeting cancelled, etc.): Calling Post.

We don't use text but that's a good idea for late breaking news.

We also have the SPL run thru weekly announcements at the troop meeting.(This message has been edited by knot head)

Consider having the scouts demonstrate the survival float plus the clothes inflation on a canoe trip or when you take your annual swim test. Its good practice and may save a life someday.

I applaud your efforts to improve the instruction your troop gets. Keep up the good work.

No term limits here. The last three SM's and committee chairs served about 5 years each. One SM is still with us as an ASM who mentors star to eagle scouts and the other teaches MBs. Our treasurer and equipment chairmen have 10+ years in their slots. The current activity chair has 3 years with us and the advancement chair 2 years.

Works for us to let a guy or gal serve as long as they enjoy their job and do it well.

Our troop does not have any age limts. Then again I can't recall anyone making eagle at age 14 or less so I guess it's never been an issue.

Local merit badge colleges (I don;t l;ike them but we do allow guys to earn badges there) oftem limit badges by age. At summer camp they require you to be 14 for shotgun although they will told me it is more an issue of size to handle the gun that age. A big 13 year old who is mature enough to follow the action will be allowed to take the class unless there is a wait list of 14 year olds.

I don't really have stong opinion on this isse. There are pros and cons on both sides. On average your 17 year old will grasp (or at least should grasp) citizenship and environmental science in a way the 12 year old may not be able to. It that's probably true of camping, first aid and communications and many other badges also. Just because a guy takes a badge at 12 or 13 does not mean you can't teach good camping, communications and citizenship as a part of the program all during his scout career.

So until the BSA establishes a policy for age I hope our troop will continue to have no restrictions but just use a little old fashioned SPL & SM counseling to pair badges with a scout's level of ability and maturity regardless of his age. We have a just turned 15 year old about to make eagle who is light years ahead of many of our 17 year olds in terms of maturity, insight and leadership. The guy was ASPl at 12 and SPL at age 13 and was one of our best ever. Just a natural. Be a shame to hold a guy like that back with a blanket policy.

How far do they want to hike? IMHO managing the length of the hike as well as the terrain to the age & experience of the crew is definitely a safety factor where the adults need to have input. And the gear you will need (or at least want) is different from the typical car camping gear.

We do an annual "intro to backpacking" trek in February just before the new guys cross over. This gives the youngest guys who have been in the troop for 11 months a chance to hike 5 miles into the backcountry, camp, use the backpacking stoves, dig cat holes and then hike out 5 miles the next day. The older boys take a longer 11 miles in and out route but camp at the same campsite. The young guys are prepped & led by scouts who have attended Philmont in the past. The adults tag along at the rear as the ... "mule patrol". We haul some first year scout gear and food if need be to keep their pack at about 30% of their body weight. Some years the young guys need more rest breaks but they can make it. Now this is rolling hill terrain so there are no hard climbs. Maybe your guys want to try ground they are not yet ready for and that is a safety issue. We also hit harder trails like the Appalachian Trail but that is a handpicked 14 year and older crew of guys that we know for a fact can climb those peaks. So as I said, IMHO managing the terrain to the age & experience is definitely a safety factor the adults need to have input on.

Are they planning to hike in too far? Do they need to worry about bear procedures? Do they have the gear they need (car camp tents + sleeping bags can be heavy!) Maybe steer them toward a shorter hike with easy terrain to get them a little experience? Backpacking is a great way to learn responsibility and teamwork. But you do not want to go off with a half baked plan and the wrong gear!

If you have any questions I will try my best to help.

>>What pearls of wisdom can be given on this?

I saw the title and figured this was a backpacking thread. :-0

Anyway... it's a Kelty Red Cloud 6650.

>>>> Sports - the sport programs thru our local schools are now year-round. Training, practice, conditioning, assorted camps and the coaches prefer 1 sport athletes so they can be monitored closer with a lower chance of injury from another activity.

There are probably many ways to recruit successfully and grow a program. For us what works is providing a good outdoor calendar that is full of fun activities that the boys choose at the annual planning meeting. Some events they include year after year, others they try and discard. We try help them make it happen if they want to do it. This year we will backpack, canoe, white water, rock climb, summer camp, cooking competition, Camporee, scout base, fishing, along with the traditional family November campout and new scout cross over campout. Now we are lucky that we can afford to do all this. Even though we do all the trips on a shoestring budget it is still going to cost a lot to attend all of these events. But we do have a lot of fun and that has helped us keep good numbers.

We have had several non cubs join and remain with the troop. We have a pretty good outdoor program and high adventure program. Boys talking at school and posting picture on facebook of ski trips, white water, canoe, rock climbing and long 30+ mile backpacking trips is the hook. But the friendship of the boys is what brings them over. Most of the non cubs join as 11 year olds but we do have several guys that joined as 12 and 13 year olds.

We have a brochure that includes an activity calendar that we share with cub parents and some of the parents pass it on to non cub friends. We also get some non cubs from the church that is our CO.

(This message has been edited by knot head)

Our troop still plays cards in our camp at night. Some nights the just talk and tell jokes.

Don't have a movie screen in the trailer. Can't see it ever happening in our troop.

I do like having cell coverage and wireless at the admin building at camp so I can keep up with work in the mornings while the boys are in MB class I can do some work. After lunch the adults all go go fishing or hang out and shoot the breeze.

We don't allow cell phones in summer camp for the scouts. Maybe one year but not yet.

>>>>High Adventure isn't just a summer thing, someone needs to start planning a snow skiing and cross country skiing trip.

Beary

Hike a stretch of the Appalachian Trail and then raft the Ocoee River in Tennessee where the Atlanta Olympic white water events were held.

Hike a stretch of the Appalachian Trail to the Nantahala Outdoor Center and then earn the BSA Kayak award and the White Water MB by Kayaking the Nantahala River.

Thats what the 2010 Philmont crew hopes to do in 2011 and 2012. Those trips should be cheaper than Philmont and also require less vacation time from the adults.

I would add that getting first aid before emergency prep seems a little excessive and not necessary but we earn them in that order in our troop since that is the requirement.

I started to write a response but thankfully I read CalicoPenn's post first.

I agree with his comments. You dont need swimming before canoeing, rifle before shotgun etc.

You do want to master canoeing on flat water like a lake or easy river before you jump into a canoe on white water.

The painting of the ramp would be a good springboard for the painting merit badge.

Not sure about the ramp given what buffalo said above. I don't counsel this badge so I can't say for sure, but consider his comment.

YMMV.

We have a closed toe sandal/shoe rule. Basically it it a no flip flop rule. Crocs are fine too, that's what I wear. Tennis shoes work at summer camp since the paths are well worn. If you want to wear boots that's okay too.

YMMV

I don't like the hats off rule but I follow it since it is camp tradition at the summer camp we attend. We're under a screened in pavillion so sort of a blend of inside/outside in the mess hall. But I just go with the flow and take the hat off. The hat snatching sounds a little extreme when a simple reminder would do.

Our troop trailer was stolen a few years back. Now we but a boot on the trailer wheel, a lock on the trailer hitch and the back door and city police try to keep an eye on it. The church parking lot has a gate but a determined thief could get thru that.

Thanks all.

We plan to continue using a red cross LG with a current certification for the summer campers since that's what our camp requires.

This wasn't a summer camp question but a question on behalf of a few of the older guys that have passed the swim test four years running and will canoe this year but not go to summer camp (our Philmont crew). We have time so I guess we'll just have them take a trip to the athletic club and get a lifeguard to check them off.(This message has been edited by knot head)

Below is what we do also. We've always made sure the test was given by either a red cross or BSA lifeguard, since that is what our summer camp requires.

I do wonder if a skilled adult who used to be a lifeguard could give this test for the purpose of a canoe trip. I started a thread whth that question before I saw this thread.

>>>>>>>> Our camp allows us to take the test before we arrive, and we do. We take it in a pool, and the camp has a lake. All of our first year Scouts take Swimming, if they pass the swim test. We haven't had any issues of pool vs. lake, and that might be due to the abundance of lakes nearby. "Going to the lake" is a regular occurance around here (my son went with some friends yesterday, and they were out on the water, already riding the tube). We have a Red Cross-certified Life Guard conduct the test for us. Saves a TON of time at camp!

We have a dad that is a triathlete and was a red cross trained lifeguard and swimming instructor growing up. His three year certification has lapsed but he seems qualified to give the annual swim test to our troop.

I can't find in the G2SS where it says that the test *must* be given by a certified red cross or BSA certified lifeguard but that is the way our troop has always done it.

So anyone know if you need a certified red cross or BSA certified lifeguard to give the swim test?

The answer may be in the Aquatics Supervision, No 34346 but I don't have a copy of that. Are those online somewhere?

(This message has been edited by knot head)

>>There is no "voluntarily" about it. It is required. There is also a "no talking policy" involved. And the service isn't to the community, it's to the OA. And it is an initiation which by definition is hazing.

Since you mention it I did investigate the OA ordeal and how they squared the "no hazing" policy in BSA. They were happy to explain. I am comfortable that *voluntarily* eating a smaller than usual breakfast & lunch and performing some service to the commuity isnt much of an "ordeal" much less hazing. We endure more of an ordeal on some of our backpacking trips where we do conservation work than what scouts typically endure at OA ordeal. Since the OA candidates go in knowing what will happen during the weekend and that they wont be the butt of jokes like drinking urine either by trickery or against their will we feel pretty good about the "ordeal".

Maybe youre trying to be funny in your response but Im pretty comfortable in my position that older scouts guys who should be leaders are not acting very helpful, friendly, courteous or kind when they attempt or hatch plans to get younger scouts to drink urine. They clearly arent acting obedient since they know this is over a line we have already established in our troop.

This has been a good thread. We discussed this in the PLC last night and the troop leadership was mortified that older scouts would pull a stunt like this. The patrols leaders made it a point to go back to their patrols to discuss the scout law and how we strive to treat other scouts. So the topic of the thread was beneficial to our troop.

If my son was the butt of a hazing incident like this I'd be furious.

If he was the one doing the hazing to a younger scout I'd be twice as mad.

In no uncertain terms we explain that our troop has a "zero tolerance" policy for hazing. We explain it to webelo parents & webelos that visit. We cover it at orientation. We remind scouts before campouts. We give examples. We explain the consequences.

Anyone pulling a stunt like this in our troop would know this was an immediate expulsion. There would be no doubt in their mind they were way over the line trying to influence a younger scout to do something like this.

If a scout in your troop did something like this and honestly didn't think it was wrong... then wow, rethink your position in light of the scout law.(This message has been edited by knot head)

>>Tell someone who is eligible to join Boy Scouts, or an inactive Boy Scout, about your troop's activities. Invite him to a troop outing, activity, service project or meeting. Tell him how to join, or encourage the inactive Boy Scout to become active.