Knot Head

>>> Why is your son in Boy Scouts?

Backpacking is a fairly difficult badge because of the number and length of trips that are required.

Of course that assumes the MB counselor actually makes the scout do all the requirements as written.

SS is not really a Ponzi scheme because participation is mandatory. With that said SS is not actuarially sound and thus will require adjustment to either the revenue stream (taxes) or the benefit side (payments). There will probably be an adjustment to both sides so that more people will have their SS benefits taxed and working people will have their taxes increased.

I dont consider SS in my retirement because it will either be broke or my benefits will be cut or taxed down to zero. So I expect to pay into the system for my entire working life yet receive nothing back in return. In that respect its worse than a Ponzi because typically people get a few cents on the dollar back from a Ponzi.

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We have a bugler and it is great. When a guy won't get up in the morning the bugler walks over and blows max volume right into the tent flap.

We are a BYOT troop (bring your own tent). New scouts usually start with dome tent. Sometimes a Kelty or Apex and sometimes a Wal-Mart tent. We cap it at 3 scouts in one tent and most times it is two in a tent. The older guys usually trade up to a 2 man backpacking tent as they start to get closer to Philmont.

It is their tent so it is their responsibility to take care of it. Air it out, make sure they have poles, stakes, ground cloth, etc.

I switched to a Hubba 2 years ago and love it. Junior has a Hubba Hubba.

Our troop is often called and eagle factory. I guess that's the same thing. 55 on roster and 42 eagles over the troops 16 year history so about 4 to 5 eagles each year I guess.

It does not bother me too much to be called an eagle factor. We've never had a guy make eagle before age 14 and most get it at 16. We camp 11 months a year and go to Philmont almost each year. Every once in a while we have a guy get eagle who does not really like to camp, skips Philmont and is a resume builder. These guys are list checkers with stage moms and dads pushing them along. You do what you can to make sure they earn their way and have fun but you wonder if they really like it. For the most part though the guys who earn eagle camp about 70 nights by the time they earn it and they like to camp and are good scouts. They have good scoutcraft knowledge but I will say not too many are going to wow you with their public speaking. A few will but most are just good guys that like the outdoors. That does not bother me. When I think eagle scout I do not think "great public speaker", I think trustworthy kid who knows first aid, is a good camper and is someone you enjoy on the trail. The kind of kid who drops his pack at the top of a hill and comes back with a smile and insists that he carry yours because he knows you are dead tired. Yeah, that happened to me. That's an eagle scout.

Here is a story that sums up what I like to see in an eagle scout. True story that happened to a kid named Zach. Could have happened to any number of our guys but it happened to Zach. Zach is very involved in his church. Also plays foorball and is pretty good at it. Good kid who is a beast on the backpacking trail and could probably do 20 miles with terrain change if you turned him lose. Good sense of humor too. But I digress... Anyway Zach goes camping with the 7th and 8th grade boys youth group at his church. He is in 8th grade and is a Life Scout at the time. They get to the campsite and the youth pastor opens the trunk and gets out the tents. Nobody on the trip (about 15 people) knows how to set up a tent (except Zach of course). Youth leader asks who can figure this out. Zach steps up and says most tents are kinda the same let me take a look. Of course he has helped the new scouts set up tents (we are a BYOT troop) so he has seen and set up several different brands. Later that night guess who they turn to to get the fire started. Guess who sets up the stove the next morning. Guess who they turn to when a kid twists an ankle playing frisbee. Now when the youth pastor mentioned this to me a few weeks later I asked Zach about it. He kinda brushed it off as no big deal. Me, I was pretty pumped up that our program had done what we hoped it would do.

So yeah we make a lot of eagles including some good ones like Zach and also occasionally wannabes.

Kids are free to go or not go as they choose on my middle school football team and my scout campouts and meetings. But actions have consequences. I don't cut players from the team or the troop. But if a player misses practice he won't play and if they miss campouts they will advance more slowly. So it's not mandatory unless you want to play or advance.

And yes we try to win all our games so I am guilty of being an ego stroking coach trying to prove my manhood.

>>>>>> I think it's VERY illegitimate for a sport or activity to claim kids must be there 100% of the time, or have mandatory attendance.

This is just a bad way to run a program. The worst offenders are the people running kids sports, who stroke their egos by trying to get a winning record as a coach. Kind of as proof of one's manhood.

Kids should be free to go, or not go, as they choose.

1) Is there any definitive guide that states what is and is not considered an outing for this requirement?

>>>>Our SM sets that policy and we have always counted service projects for this requirement.

2) Is it unreasonable for a Scout with a lot of experience in the woods to get 1st Class in 7 or 8 months?

>>>> Not at all. If you master the skills and meet the requirements then you advance. With a little practice and dedication it just is not that hard to learn the requirements.

3) Is it appropriate for an ASM to tell a Scout to slow down and question something another ASM signed off on? I already feel it is very un-Scout like for his son to be questioning this.

>>>> If we are supposed to be teaching boys to be leaders and to be reliable why in the world would we make a kid feel bad for enthusiasm and committment to the troop as evidenced by attendance? We should encourage enthusiasm and attendance, not make a scout feel like he has broken some unwritten rule. I'd tell the other scouts "hey, if you work hard, attend every meeting and campout you will advance more quickly also! But if you are not learning and also having fun along the way then what's the point?"

If a kid is enthusiastic and an over achiever and legitimately makes eagle at 14 years of age then good for him.

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The band has girls... and band trips... on busses... at night... with seats in the back of the bus...

We have some older scouts who recently planned and executed an overnight backpacking trip. Some of the *ahem* "leaders" on the committee were not in favor of this so the kids did not file a tour permit nor refer to it as a scouting activity. They can drive as 16 year olds so off they went. They got no Troopmaster credit but shrugged that off. Didn't like it, but accepted it. The kids who went are Philmont vets. They hike too fast for my taste but I was certainly proud they did 30 miles in 2 days on a pretty hard trail with no cell coverage (but other hikers on the trail). I remember when they were little pups on their first 5 miler. Now they blow thru 15 miles in a day with elevation change like it is no big deal. I wish I could still do that!

I don't think this is the fault of the adults.

I own a pricey thermarest and leave it at home in favor of the blue closed cell foam pad I got at Wal Mart for about $9. My 14 YO scout won't use it either. The blue pad is easy to take care of and feels better to me than the thermarest. YMMV

We use same age patrols and there are definitely pros and cons. Bevah covered many of these very well in his post. The troop where I serve was formed in 1995 when 5 webelos founded the troop and the troop has grown and has a very active outdoor program and high retention rate, which of course are good things. Since the beginning horizontal patrols has always been the way things were done. While I personally would prefer that we give vertical age patrols a try I doubt this will ever happen in our troop.

One benefit is the patrols are very tight since they are the same age and are good friends in our troop. The older guys (the Philmont Vets we call them) plan and go on two or three backpacking or canoe adventure trips in the spring, summer and fall of up to a week long after they return from Philmont. Usually our Philmont Crews are 14 year olds that go as a patrol on their trek. Their first years in the troop are spent preparing to take that trek together and when they come back they like to run their own patrol trips. So I guess they pick up some leadership and responsibility along the way despite the same age patrol issues. A few have returned to Philmont as a leader of a younger patrol or as part of the conservation program or eventually as rangers.

But I do wonder how things would be different in vertical age patrols. The new patrols do take more adult intervention to get them going on their first couple of campouts, although after about 3 or 4 campouts those guys are setting up and tearing down their campsite with little assistance and cooking and cleaning pretty independently. Now they may not be cooking very well but they do get it done. The key there is to reign in the new parents that have crossed over and make sure they do not set up tents or clean cooking gear or do any work for the patrol. Well cover this before crossover and then gently remind them when we need to. So maybe if you have horizontal age patrols you need to have your adult radar turned on so you can pull the adults back a little more often than a vertical age troop.

>>>>>> How are your units handlin' this kind of behavior by kids/families?

Sometimes you just have to *try* as best you can to ignore some folks in your troop and make sure you are trying to do things the right way.

we have a jalapeno patrol and their yell is "muy caliente!" or sometimes "arriba - muy caliente!"

I feel kinda old school here since we still use the 12 cup old style perculating coffe pot.

Our troop historian job duties:

1. Take pictures at each troop or patrol event or assign someone to do it if he cannot attend the event. Collect photos from all who took a camera to the event. Upload all pictures on the troop shutterfly account.

2. Write up a one paragraph or more summary of the event (eagle work day, campout, patrol hike, etc.) and submit this along with one or two digital photos to the local weekly free newspaper. This paper will often publish this since they are looking for local news and they dont have to do any reporting. If they do publish a photo or article then the troop historian cuts the article and places it in the troop scrapbook.

3. Select a few good pictures of the event for the troop website.

4. This is a relatively new one. Put all photos during his tenure on a CD.

5. Put together the COH slideshow(This message has been edited by knot head)

I like this idea!

>>>>>>>

Trail to First Class - cumulative nights camping:

1 night camping for Tenderfoot.

3 nights camping for 2nd Class.

5 nights camping for 1st Class.

Star: 5 nights camping as a First Class Scout

Life: 5 nights camping as as Star Scout

Eagle: 5 nights camping as a Life Scout

We count summer camp as 1 activity. Each campout is counted as one activity even though we may do multiple activities while on that campout such as a swim and a hike and a compass course.

We allow all campouts to count toward the activity requirement also. So if you camp 10 times you would be good to go. Now I've never seen that happen but it would count. Usually there will be an eagle work day or two mixed in with campouts, memorial day flag placement, Christmas campfire party or 4th of July swim party or a day hike or something to get a guy to 10 activities. As mentioned above if a patrol visits a fire station for a safety lecture or does the flag ceremony for a city council meeting we would count that also as an activity.

You can shoot .30-06 at Philmont but that's the only place that I know of that allows you to shoot other than .22's.

>>>> If they are absent at the COH, we call their name and recognize their accomplishment. We present their badges and cards to them at the next Troop meeting.

>>If their goal is to handle most proposals electronically, simply saying the committee strongly prefers proposals be submitted electronically would be sufficient. I would think they would get a high level of compliance and the few remaining hard copies could be handled without a great deal of trouble.

>>>> What is considered successful?

>>>>>Sitting down and making 10-12 phone calls with the same information (which, with our group seems to be the only foolproof way of getting the message across) is very labor intensive. Multiply that by ALL dens (35 phone calls or so) and it's unreal.