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It was my understanding that FCFY was originally introduced to address two concerns: First, it was supposed to be a rough gauge of the quality of a unit's program. In other words, a Scout in a unit with a quality program should be capable of earning the First Class rank in roughly a year. The unit should be doing enough hiking, camping, swimming, orienteering, etc for this to be a possibility. It also helps units gauge how much emphasis should be placed on the advancement method, versus other program areas (so it may be indicative of some problems if Scouts are routinely earning First

I'm not saying that the online training, or even our training program in general, are as effective or efficient as they could be. But keep in mind that there's a difference between a brand new leader who's legitimately never been exposed to this material before, and a Scouter with several years of experience that has the material committed to memory. I think a step in the right direction would be to implement a "refresher" training curriculum, separate from the "initial training" curriculum. So the first time a Scouter is signed up, they need to go do through full shebang training p

BD - Fair point, and I agree that the "other thread" has taken a sharp turn from the Scout-like values that we should be applying here. It's possible to politely disagree. You're right, there's probably some overlap between religions who take a dim view of the OA, and religions that take a dim view of the BSA in general. But then the OA shouldn't really be an issue, as you can't be in the OA unless you're in the BSA... I worry that attacking religions who object to the OA is equally offensive as attacking Scouters who disagree on how to interpret a fairly vague rule. I don't neces

Eagle and Beav - That's very interesting. At the very least, it shows that there are (at least) two credible positions on the matter. I have some questions about that specific article, but I too am certainly not an expert in the field. Beavah, I need to ask you for some clarification on your position, so that I don't waste time arguing something that's not being disputed :-) Are you saying that units should look only at experience, and not at age when selecting a unit leader? So a 40 year old who served as an ASM for 7 years would be on roughly equal footing as a 18 year old who spent

If there is a spiritual quality to Scouting or OA, it certainly can't be of any particular faith. Can it? Well, it certainly seems like Native American spirituality influences the OA to some extent. I doubt that very many people have a huge problem with that, but its easy to see why some religious groups may be uncomfortable with it. What else is there For starters, taken from the OA's website: "As Scoutings National Honor Society, our purpose is to: Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause oth

Beav - All very good points. 7+ years experience in Scouting is quite an accomplishment, and I'm sure a very attractive qualification, regardless of age. If I could just ask you to expound on one more point for me: "experience that counts, because experiences causes brain development" -- can you point me to the research that indicates that inexperience is the reason why certain regions of the brain aren't fully developed until age 25 or so? Also could you maybe PM me with info on the EMT-W cert?

Right Beav, I see what you're saying. But I don't think that it's all about experience either. I know I included experience as an example, but there's also maturity and good judgement, correct? And, contrary to what you said, it has been well documented that the parts of the brain that regulate risky behavior and overall maturity aren't fully developed until the mid- to late-20s. It may not be fair to judge one particular young adult based on that generalization, but it's not any less fair than judging an older adult based on the generalization that they will be slower to learn or to accep

SSS - I personally don't have any objection to the OA on the basis of religion, but I do think you might be somewhat trivializing the arguments being made by religious leaders: That said, I find it hard to understand how any person, religious leader or not, can object to an organization whose goal is the encouragement of selfless service to others. Isn't that what Christ was all about? Well, two things: selfless service to other's is not the OA's only goal or practice. And Christ was not all about it either. And I think that's where religious leaders might be getting a little uncom

Hello Again Beavah - I noticed you added a bit about EMTs before I finished posting. Well, it's not a perfect analogy, comparing EMS to Scouting. I brought it up because someone else brought it up first, and it's a comparison that seems to be made often around here. But you have to keep in mind how far you can reasonably make the comparison go. I will say, in many cases, that age and experience are linked. Frankly, there's only so much experience that you can have at age 18. That's one area where the EMS analogy is not perfect - an 18 year old might start working as an EMT with z

Hi Beavah - I know we had a lengthy related conversation on the age of Scouters a few months ago. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm in no way linking young adult Scouters with sexual predators. All of my comments were directed at the behavior of "GASers" (I love that term) in general. Sexual offenses aren't the only concern when selecting adult leadership. As far as beating the crap out of someone goes... Sure, it's an extreme situation. And hopefully one that you never need to personally face. But, even extreme situations have boundaries pertaining to how to address them appro

There's a couple of discussions going on across the forum right now with a shared theme: A perception of a lack of an ability to have concerns, questions and suggestions regarding the Scouting program heard and addressed by folks at the National level. To hopefully avoid another nonsensical thread lamenting how National is physically impossible of doing anything correctly, I'd like to focus my question on the specific area of our training course content and syllabuses (syllabi?) Pertaining to NYLT, for example, I know that National has run pilot programs at a handful of councils prior to

SP - Can you identify the difference between these terms: encouraging, allowing, discouraging and prohibiting? There is a rule against prohibiting parents from attending OA ceremonies. There is no rule against explaining to parents why we would prefer that they not attend. That is a fact. If you feel that discouraging parents from attending should be prohibited, you need to focus on changing the rule to reflect that -- not on re-defining simple words to twist a rule into what you wish it meant. But in this case I think that the BSA rule is pretty much irrelevant. Any adult who ac

Eagle92 talks about a catch-22. I think there is some truth to that, but I also think that we're not necessarily talking about Scouting-specific KSAs. I think much of the maturity and good judgement that an "old fogie" may be worried about will be developed just as easily outside of Scouting as inside of Scouting. Remember, we're not talking about some National policy that would restrict Scouters to be 21 and older. I'm not even suggesting that units should shy away from "GASers" as Eagle92 puts it. What I'm saying is that there's a strong enough correlation between age and immaturity

Well, I didn't expect the issue of "credentials" to be the point of contention. I was merely objectively pointing out that it occurs. On that issue, it was not my intention to debate any one individual's suitability to serve as a Scouter. What I am saying is that units and their chartered organizations are responsible for providing a quality scout program. And are responsible to recruiting quality leaders to aide in delivering that program. They are not required to recruit you or to recruit me, regardless of our qualifications. And, while I would hope that a unit in need would no

I personally don't buy into E61's opinion fully on this matter. But, after thinking it over, I can see there being, maybe, a nugget of truth beneath what he's saying. Whenever any question arises pertaining to the suitability of "young adults" to serve as Scouters, several "young adults" regularly pipe up listing out their qualifications ("I'm an Eagle Scout, an EMT, a lifeguard, I've saved someone's life, etc etc). For some reason, it seems like the EMT angle comes up again and again in these discussions. Being a paramedic myself I'll pick on that for a second. I was an EMT at 18

E61 - correct. Neither owning nor wearing a uniform is a condition of membership in the BSA. It is also not even a component of any advancement requirement that I am aware of.

Well, short of just copying and pasting my previous post... Yes, the BSA sells some items that are more expensive than similar items found at other retailers. REI sells some items at a higher price than at Campmor. Target sells some items at a higher price than at Walmart. I propose a boycott of the BSA, REI and Target due to their "predatory pricing." You, as the consumer, can chose where you spend your money. You are not required to purchase anything from the BSA, other than the $15 annual membership fee. If you wish to purchase official BSA merchandise directly from the BSA,

Yup, really. A non-profit organization can be, and usually is, a business. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization

Wilton - To some extent, I can feel your pain. But the BSA is a business, that sells and licenses products and resources to its customers. So yes, it's membership in some cases is a "profit center." And I don't see that as a problem. If they're providing products and services to a customer, they are entitled to charge what they want for those products and services. If the customer doesn't want to pay, they don't have to. Capitalism, right? Let's take a step back and look at the only required fee that a member of our organization must pay to be a member of the BSA: an annual $15

So, since a cell phone might run out of batteries, or might not have a good signal, we're going to refrain from carrying one? What's wrong with turning it off (conserves batteries), wrapping it in a ziplock and storing it in the bottom of your pack? Because, if you get lost or injured, it might have batteries, and might get an adequate signal - and might substantially contribute to your safety.

Maybe I'm over-simplifying the issue, but... it would appear that the illegal drug (marijuana) is less dangerous than the pseudo-legal pseudo-drug in question...

I'd be very cautious about going that PayPal route. PayPal isn't a "real" bank, and isn't required to abide by the same laws pertaining to privacy, insurance, fraud protection, etc, that a real bank has. Sure, it's not bad for doing a bit of buying and selling on eBay, but I'd recommend carefully evaluating how much of your troop's funds you want to tie to PayPal. Not saying that a debit card is a great idea either, but I'd go with a debit card from a real bank over PayPal myself.

Your concept and how you relate to that "higher power" is not necessarily the same as how everyone else relates to that higher power. Well, of course. That's been the driving force of the past seven pages of discussion on this thread, and the thousands of hours collectively spent discussing this topic in general. The problem is that many religions treat their own sacred texts and traditions to be more authoritative than a recommendation from the USSSP. Religion doesn't need to be a source of division What do you mean? Religions can and do prescribe fairly strict expectat

I think the absolute most important thing a Scout can learn with regards to religion is to respect each others' beliefs If we stipulate that there is in fact some higher power, I would think that the absolute most important thing a Scout can learn is about that higher power, and to strengthen his or her relationship with said power. Not that respect is unimportant, but "absolute most important?" that definitely connects with how a Scout is reverent. Can you explain this connection in a bit more detail?

There's different kinds of learning, and there's different kinds of cognitive and psychological function based on the skill set that's being learned. A boy who knows how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide still knows arithmetic after a whole summer of not usin' it. Seriously? You really think that anyone over the age of 4 can go a whole summer without having to add, subtract, multiply or divide? "How much more money do I need to buy this computer game?" "What meal can I get at Burger King for $5 or less" "How many hours left until bed time?" Sure, maybe they're not writing