Joni4TA

I'll be glad when all aspects of it are implemented. It will save me a lot of time!

My correspondent is a message board member.... "one of us." I didn't link to the original post because it was partially irrelevant. It received minimal response.... Perry book to tout Scout values

The link is here: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=171718

But the fact that he is a Gay Scouter is interesting and I believe offers a different, more personal perspective into this issue. He's offering personal experience from his youth, how he became to know he was gay, etc. And then he offers his personal perspective on how that effects him now, as a Gay Scouter. I think the guy's spot on with how I view the situation! Again, I don't expect anyone else to agree, I am just showing a corroboration to my argument.

It's worth pointing out as well that the poster and I are on two different sides of the spectrum, but seem to agree. I am openly against gays being in the BSA, and he's probably one that would like to see change on that policy. Yet we both see it pretty much the same way - that it's discrimination (he uses the word prejudice), and with our continued membership we seemingly endorse, agree with, support, comply, etc. with the BSA's policy on gays.

I don't know if I am on-board to label it "prejudice" though. Looking at the meaning of the word, I don't believe the BSA is coming down with "an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts," which is the definition of prejudice in The American Heritage Dictionary.

I believe they do have knowledge and have examined facts, but still choose to legally discriminate against gays. The law protects their decision to do so.

I am talking specifically about the requirement added - #11; "Tell someone who is eligible to join Boy Scouts, or an inactive Boy Scout, about your troop's activities. Invite him to a troop outing, activity, service project, or meeting. Tell him how to join, or encourage the inactive Boy Scout to become active."

It wasn't in the 2002 printing of the handbook. I have a bit of a disagreement going on whether or not a boy has to complete this requirement. He apparently may have joined the unit BEFORE the revision/addition of #11. So another person believes the boy doesn't have to complete the requirement. I believe otherwise, as he didn't complete the requirement before things changed. Now that the rank requirements are different I believe he should complete all the requirements not currently done.

What say ya'll? Is there a "grandfather clause" in Boy Scout Requirements?

I am curious... as it is extremely expensive. It costs as much to go to a business management seminar in some cases.

Also what about Cedar Badge for youth? It's almost as much as WB! There's probably a handful of boys in our Unit that have gone to CB. One never wants to be SPL, one never shows up, a third never applies his knowledge, etc. It seems like something too expensive to send people to who aren't ready to get something out of it!

But since I am not eligible for either (I think), I was curious if it's volunteers or professionals who teach these courses. If volunteers, why in the world does it cost so much to go?

Thanks!

I am really not that sensitive about it, I promise you guys. Peace, Love - all is good I was being a little facetious in my last post and trying to be a little humorous as well. I admit I was irritated at first but got over it. Maybe it's that old saying about "If the shoe fits..."

It's a cute analogy, the sucker thing. Not much different from when I had quit smoking for ohhhh.... maybe the 4th or 5th time in my life. I bought a black t-shirt that I wore quite frequently. It has an anti sign around a smoking cigarette. Underneath that graphic it simply says, "There's cooler ways to die"

I love that shirt, I am just not qualified to wear it since I began smoking again in August! No one can be more critical of me than I am to myself, believe me.

In regards to the OP though, that Cubmaster and DL ought to be thoroughly ashamed of their behavior. I could see if it was something they didn't know about - not smoking in front of Scouts. But it sounded like they knew all about the tobacco policy and still didn't give a flip through a rolling cheerio about following the rules. See, that's just wrong on all levels. I hope they reconsider their behavior!

They do only use the instant oatmeal bag for their bowl! They don't bring pots and all that along, just a mess kit and one of those large thermal cups where they add boiling water and let their meal steep for a while.

I wish the boys would have considered stove top stuffing or rice-a-roni, some canned roast beef, deviled ham or tuna, maybe some cheese and crackers, pepperoni or summer sausage sticks, even a little beef jerky or some of that pre-made boxed bacon to add to their cup o' noodles and ramen meals. Instant pudding would have been a change too.

But at least talking about my own son, seems like he could live off of Top Ramen forever and never blink an eye. I would just really like the boys to add a little variety to their meals but convincing them to "think outside the ramen" is sort of like nailing jello to a tree.

Last I checked for my son active in football daily he needed something like 3700 cals. I doubt hiking would be any different. I think maybe the best way to challenge them to think about adding a little variety is to have them add up the calories and meet a certain goal! That's an awesome idea. Thank you!

Telling them they are free to produce a menu with the caveat that it needs to be at least 3,000 cals a day should be a great challenge. Of course we'll have to provide them some calore counts but that shouldn't be too hard!

Good point! I think I lived on Ramen, Mac & Cheese and hot dogs for like the 1st 2 years after high school in my first apartment! And the sky is too blue LOL

Every participant will receive a patch and certificate from BSA. Winners, chosen from the following categories, will be recognized at a May 2008 BSA National Annual Meeting:

Overall design

Best Design by an Eagle Scout

Best Design by a Venturer

Best Design by a Boy Scout

Best Design by a Cub Scout or Webelos Scout

The overall winner will receive an all-expense paid trip to San Francisco, CA to work hand-in-hand with Kit Hinrichs to finalize the 100th Anniversary Celebration logo design.

Of course this says nothing about WHEN they might get the patch but it looks like they should at least have it before May '08, I think.

By the way, I'd like to point out and quote someone... and this supports my argument that (to me) as long as I stay a member in the BSA organization every year, give them my money for recharter, actively recruit for the Boy Scouts, do fundraisers for, represent in public, wear the uniform, etc., I am both complying with and supporting their policies, whatever they may be! This includes the policy on Gays!

This is written by (from what I can gather by posts), a Gay Scouter..... Maybe if you don't want to hear it from MY keyboard, you will believe it more coming from "the other side".....

'I'd hope my arguments cause [leaders] to understand they could have a quietly suffering kid in their midst today, coming to grips with their sexuality, and not concerned with interpreting the nuance of their leader's unintended judgment or implicit endorsement of prejudice against that boy.

No, I don't expect I'm going to change the hearts and minds of the zealots among us... but I do hope to find a few hearts and minds that are already a little open. And I'd like to cause them to think through their implicit endorsement of the prejudice, and prepare them for the day when this issue does suddenly show up in their unit or family, so they'll be prepared with more than a knee-jerk reaction."

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When asked a question by CA_Scouter - - - Does this mean that by the simple act of being a leader in the BSA, that I'm guilty of prejudice against one of my scouts?

Yes, at least to a degree you and I both are guilty of implicitly endorsing the policy if prejudice. We both might rather focus on great campouts and developing leaders within our unit, and probably do for the most part.

But to the kid who is quietly coming to grips with a part of his being that he's unable to change, do you think he's able to understand the nuanced difference between a BSA national policy you may or may not agree with, one that labels him "incapable of being the best kind of citizen", and what Mr. CA_Scouter really believes about him?

Just as bad, if you and I disagree with the prejudice, by donating our money and time and adding our name to the membership count, we're lumping ourselves under this very public stance that the BSA has taken. Now we may both decide the overwhelming value of Scouting justifies our involvement, but to the young parents of a Cub Scout age boy evaluating the organization from the outside, they identify you and me and the organization as an agent of prejudice. Clearly, smart people will assume not EVERY leader in the organization believes as the national policy states, but since there's no mechanism for you to set yourself apart from the prejudice (no "local option", no tolerance for members who speak out against the policy, etc), how will you get through your implicit endorsement of the prejudice?

And this is EXACTLY what I was trying to say about compliance and support. This guy says it WAY BETTER than I ever could. And I agree with him 100% completely. It doesn't matter if I am hanging around hoping to effect change from within on the BSA's policies. The fact that I am a member of the BSA and give them my time and my money every year shows my support and my compliance, my agreement, my discrimination...... guilt by association.

And that's why it is that simlpy cut and dry to me - a "like it or leave it" situation - if there is a policy that is so far out of the ballpark that I can't agree with it and support it, I would rather LEAVE the BSA....

tjhammer - I couldn't agree with you more!

Someone told me there was a difference between my compliance with the BSA policy on gays, and my support of the policy.

And I said, as long as I stay in the organization every year, let them take my recharter money, actively recruit, do fundraisers for, represent in public, etc., I am both complying with and supporting their policies, 100% whatever they may be! This includes the policy on Gays!

You just said it so much more eloquently!

With my continued membership in the BSA, I am both complying with and supporting the discrimination against gays within this private organization, whether I agree with the policy on known or avowed homosexuals or not.

Others said they remained members of the BSA because they wanted to effect change from within. This may never happen. So however many years from now someone spends paying their annual dues to the BSA waiting for change to take place, they are most likely still going to be seen as discriminators against gays, for all the time they gave to the BSA.

I believe it's basically guilt by association on this issue....

I don't know GW. Maybe if folks had more nutritious snacks available they'd want to eat them less. Carrots and Celery vs. Rice Krispies Treats kind of snacks.

But seriously, you're right. Going an hour or two without adding body fuel is pretty darn feasible.

Yeah mea... see, that's a good point - one our ASM has tried to show by example. She dehyrdrates meat sauce for spaghetti and makes her own jerky and dried fruits & veggies and stew stuff to add to noodles and gravies and all kinds of yummy menu items. She offers that dehydrater to anyone in the unit to use. So the boys most definitely do have the option of the harder to prepare, yet more nutritious meals for backpacking.

GW These boys know what's available! That's probably the biggest reason I am frustrated. I've even given them tons of ideas for lightweight backpacking menu items! I gave them a 2-page reference list. They STILL came up with the easy, cheezy and breezy crap to eat!

They constantly take the easy way out on menu planning. Drives me nuts. I wonder if I should buy up all the ramen and cup o' noodles in our local store, then offer to drive the troop shopper/grubmaster for that campout to the store myself.

Ooops, they don't have A or B in stock, looks like you have to go with Variety C instead! LOL I don't know... teenagers are definitely teenagers!(This message has been edited by Joni4TA)

I'm sorry; I am afraid I do not understand your response.

Have you been drinking?

Please rephrase your response in an intelligent manner so I may properly respond.

Domo Arigato LongHaul San

If I said the sky were blue I believe you would argue it was actually teal just because...

*****I edited my post because I didn't want to be offensive*****

And yes I do know how the NAACP was formed. That has nothing at all to do with whom they give out their scholarships to NOW... and notice I said they would "probably not" award a scholarship to a 100% Caucasian student.

I never said "won't" or "never have" (because I don't truthfully know) but since you so boldly pointed out how I was wrong please do cite your source of the white student who has received an NAACP Scholarship!!

(This message has been edited by Joni4TA)(This message has been edited by Joni4TA)

I admitted I smoke and offered what I do by leaving the area with Scouts as an acceptable alterantive to what scoutmom157's CM and DL are doing. I would hope that any Scout leader that smokes would kindly excuse themselves on a Scouting function and NOT smoke in front of the children, as it is required by policy. Didn't think that by sharing my experience I would become an immediate bullseye. You can't win for losing sometimes... doesn't matter that smoking is perfectly legal and that I don't do it in front of Scouts...

Hey, oh heck no - we're gonna slam 'em anyhow!

Then wham! - name-calling - all of a sudden I am deemed a hypocritical, physically weak SUCKER.....

OUCH oh dang someone get me a band-aid for my poor wittle hurt boo-boos and oh yeah a puffs plus with aloe, E and lanolin for my sensitive little nose and those crocodile tears coming down! As if....

Ya'll know the drill now.... *(JOHN 8:7)* Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

wow

If I saw a bunch of hooplah on someone's shirt I would ask about it. But that's just me.

I am definitely of the "Do it once a year online" variety

I must have missed the memo that says when the boys are planning their menus for backpacking, they have to eat the easiest stuff they can get their hands on. I wonder how to help them incorporate some challenge into their menu without making them feel like their mother has taken over.

Example-

Breakfast: Instant Oatmeal

Lunch: Cup O' Noodles

Dinner: Top Ramen

Snack: Trail Mix

On the Trail Snack: Powerbars X 4

Sure, it's functional but geez where is the challenge in THAT menu?

Scratch that! Apparently that is only my COUNTY! There are several other counties in our District... so I have no earthly idea how big it is

Last I heard, nearly 700 square miles I think

Over-analyzing someone else's opinion is pointless, therefor I have to agree to disagree. For ME compliance and support is the same to me on this matter.

It's how I personally feel about it - I don't expect anyone else to feel the way that I do, nor do I believe everyone should agree with me. We are all blessed with free will and opinion of mind.

As to the politician that wins - if I voted for them and contribute to their campaign every year - there's no denying my support. As for the laws that pass, if I voted for them and help pay for them getting passed - again, that shows my support.

Compliance of laws vs. Support? Apples and Oranges to BSA policy.

With laws, I have no choice but to comply lest I prefer arrest and jail. Laws are not a private organization that I can just walk away from if I disagree with. Laws are everywhere, and no matter where I went to, they would follow me everywhere I went. With the BSA, I have a clear choice - I can leave it at any time.... I don't think they'd come after me

At the risk of being redundant, I am going with the patch blanket suggestion, too.

Also, I guess one could put their patches in a scrapbook but I suppose that's more of a girly thing to do.

Lisa, I would completely agree with you if these discussions were taking place at a level within the BSA, where policy is set (I assume that would be National), and not at our level with ordinary average, (and for the most part anonymous) Scouter-folk here at Scouter.com.

Something tells me what's posted on these message boards likely doesn't effect a thing at National's policy-making level. I could be wrong.... but that's the feeling I get.

Sure thing -

page 4 -

two posts down from mine

"Joni4TA, I don't know where you got your adult application but it must have contained a typo. It should have asked that you agree to COMPLY with...... big difference between comply and support."

No - there is no difference to me. I believe since I stay a member, I am supporting the policy, not merely complying with it.