Joni4TA

KoreaScouter,

 

You're absolutely correct about the District people. And since I have recently begun to work on the District Staff and been involved more at that level, I have been probing them for advice throughout the last few months. As I said in previous posts, I have really tried to implement the advice and suggestions they've given me and respected their experience they've passed along to me. But you can only lead a horse to water and ya can't make 'em drink!

 

Anyhow, perhaps my husband and I have made ourselves the sacrificial lambs in this particular situation, and that's fine with us. Both Pack and Troop, along with our unit commissioner and COR are having meetings to talk about the issues now and hopefully will straighten things out so these boys will have a better program. (Since we are no longer members of these units, we are not attending the meetings, though we were invited.) If the boys come out the winners here, then I am convinced my speaking up about the issues was WELL WORTH IT!

 

I probably could have tried harder, perhaps I could have done things and approached issues differently but I am satisfied that I've made the best decisions (and certainly not the easiest) I could have, given the circumstances!

 

Thank you ALL for all the support and advice. This has been a real learning experience and I hope I never have to undergo any situation like this again... but I am better equipped to deal with it now,if need be.

 

Thanks!

Joni

$225 here but then we have to buy a plane ticket and fly to mainland Japan to our Council. That costs another $4 to 500.

Sorry, there is no pencil and paper icon on my post and it's been over an hour so unless there is a Forum Moderator here or an Administrator, my post isn't getting changed and that's annoying... by the way, here's the edit guidelines:

 

SCOUTER Forums Management

The Admin utility is for site moderators only. If you are attemptiong to edit a post that you have made, you can do so by clicking on the Edit Icon () that appears above your post for ONE HOUR AFTER THE ORIGINAL POST. Forum Moderators and Administrators are authorized to edit anyone's posts at any time.

 

It says a moderator can edit the messages at any time so I was asking Bob White or Eamonn, since they've been here a while. ANYONE KNOW A MONDERATOR???

Thanks!

 

Eamonn, Bob White, anyone! I am a real dork. I forgot to edit my copying and pasting above before posting and take out any people's names or Pack #'s, etc.... any way someone can do that for me? I don't care if my name is there, just don't think other people would appreciate it per say.

 

Thanks!

Joni

Well, I said "I AM TRYING TO BE AS OBJECTIVE AS I POSSIBLY CAN"... but I also know it's almost impossible to be objective in this situation, definitely. However, I have understood that there is nothing I can change except myself. And that's what I have done; changed what I can and left the rest behind. I will post a few replies I have received from other Pack leaders (Den Leaders, Committee Chair and future Comm. Chr.) who have been made aware of my resignation, as well as our District Commisioner and you can make up your own mind on who's telling the truth and who's not. I will also post a reply I received from the ACM's wife.

 

First let me say, my family went to our new Troop meeting tonight. IT WAS ABSOLUTELY REFRESHING! We made the right choice! We are all ecstatic! With us came another ASM and his two sons. So we're all FIRED UP about scouting once again... for this I would trade nothing and don't regret anything, and I mean anything.

 

First my resignation, went to the entire Pack Leadership, Senior District Scout Executive, our District Commisioner, and the Troop Leadership as well:

My reasons for leaving the Troop are several, the general idea is that the

current Troop leadership and myself seem to have a profound difference in

the understanding of BSA scouting ideals, BSA policies and the overall

implementation of the BSA program. I believe Boy Scouts is a program for ALL

boys that have registered in a unit, and not just a select few based on who

the leadership approves of. I have watched a new patrol receive their

"Scout" rank while other, older patrols go neglected and do not have the

Scout rank, nor will current Leadership look out for their interests. I

believe there should be more Troop structure according to the fundamentals

of Scouting for the benefit of all the boys in the Troop and less emphasis

on what the leaders want for one particular patrol, the one their kids are

in. That is selfish and appalling to me and I am disgusted watching this

behavior come from grown men. There is more but that's the basics, and I

want my son to have a fair BSA program and I want the entire Troop to be

unified. I also don't want to see my son's Troop molded by people who I

don't feel are concerned with the best interests of the Troop in it's

entirety.

 

On to Pack business... I will tell you this- there have been two people in

the Pack that have consistently provided me with support, cooperation, have

treated me without prejudice and have encouraged my continued involvement

within the Pack. Those two would be you, and Jennifer Bell. Recently a few

other Den Leaders that I have had the pleasure of meeting and working with

have also been encouraging and shown me that there are reasons to keep

volunteering and there is no need to feel like I have the word sucker

written on my forehead for no reason. =) Just kidding! =) Seeing the smiles

on boys who receive an award, a thank you from an appreciative Pack/Den

leader, a leader who learned something new from me or was informed of

something new or was just grateful to be included by me was enough to

sustain me in the Pack for the last seven months.

 

However, there are just as many situations dealing with other members of the

Pack administration that are outweighing the positive and are very

disturbing. There is a lot of Semper "I" -ism that goes around in this Pack

that is entirely unnecessary. New (and old) Parents and Leaders feel

unwelcome, are excluded, talked about, and even ridiculed behind their backs

for their lack of involvement or their lack of experience, or both. I was

under the impression most of our leaders were trained or that the importance

of training was emphasized upon the leaders. With the exception of myself,

maybe 3, or possibly 4 leaders in this Pack have received any training. The

ones that have the training brag about it.... but don't encourage others to

also be trained.

 

I have seen very special and difficult awards to achieve, simply handed out

to boys without the boys ever even realizing they've worked on any of the

requirements. I have watched leaders put themselves in to receive awards and

brag about how many they have and how much Velcro they need to display them,

without consideration to other leaders and the fact that these leaders, too

may have unknowingly earned a leadership award and will never know about it

unless someone tells them. The leaders that do the bragging don't encourage

or welcome growth of new and inexperienced leaders at all. Most of these

instances have occurred within an inner circle of adult leaders. And the

feeling among many adult parents and leaders is that this Pack and the way

it is run is focused solely on what will benefit this inner circle, the

leaders in the inner circle, and the scouts of those leaders in the inner

circle.

 

Some leaders and many parents don't show up to leader/parent meetings simply

because they feel only "the chosen few" will be making the decisions, and

their voices and opinions do not matter anyway. As was seen in the last

leader meeting we had, the more voices that were spoken, the more furious a

certain leader became because he wasn't able to dominate and control the

outcome of decisions being made. Certain leaders feel that unless a parent

is willing to volunteer for a position, they should have no "say-so" in what

happens in the Pack. That attitude is wrong. Not everyone is meant to be a

volunteer. Not everyone can spare the time. If they have a child in this

Pack (and in my case, even those that don't), it is THEIR PACK, TOO! And

they should be afforded some degree of mutual respect and be assured that

the Scouting program that will be provided will be a good and organized one

for all the boys in the Pack, not a program based solely on each parent's

level of involvement.

 

I watched an entire den of boys be wronged by our unit. Able and current

Pack leadership refused to provide leadership to them. Apparently an

adequate Den leader wasn't able to combine these 3-4 boys into his own den

of the same rank on the basis of "waiting until a parent steps up"......

part of our Cub Scout Promise, "To help other people"... was left out of his

reasoning, as well as part of the Law of the Pack, "The Pack helps the Cub

Scout grow"..... enough said on that issue. We refunded these boys' dues and

probably lost their interest in Scouting and the BSA, forever, as a result

of this situation. I would love to say we all learned from the experience

but something tells me there are a couple leaders who still believe it isn't

their problem and there was nothing they could (or would) do to help prevent

it and they did nothing wrong.

 

Again, I can easily say that I will be leaving the Pack for the same reasons

I leave the Troop, and because of the same people more or less. We have very

distinct differences in the understanding of scouting ideals, BSA policy and

the implementation of the BSA programs within the Pack. There has been

ineffective support and cooperation from two of the main leaders in this

Pack with regard to my position as Advancement Chair. The manner in which

the financial Pack records have been kept by key members of the Pack

leadership is atrocious to me and I can't conceivably and in good conscience

remain voiceless about it. To allow it to continue would be to accept it and

since I cannot accept nor change it myself, I cannot support it any longer

either. I will hope after my resignation, the Pack's Treasurer will attend

training and this coming Scout year will show marked improvement with regard

to finances for the sake of the boys in this unit. I believe it is also a

conflict of interest for any Cub Master to be married to a Treasurer. Given

the condition financial records were kept in this past scouting year, as a

committee member (even though I am on my way out), I cannot agree to the

continued service of our current Treasurer without her being trained first.

I also believe it would be in the Pack's best interest to find someone other

than the spouse of the Cub Master to fill this position.

 

I have strong convictions about the role of Cub Master and Assistant Cub

Master. While I do believe the current people in those positions are

qualified, able and willing to be in the positions, I don't believe their

interests follow those of all the boys in the Pack, and rather coincide more

with their own interests and those of their inner circle alone. I also don't

believe the current level of Pack organization by these two leaders is

sufficient enough to handle the needs of all registered boys in the Pack.

Pack Meetings should bring all dens together to feel like they are part of a

bigger family than those that meet in their weekly den meetings. The last

Pack meeting I felt this happened was in October for our Costume Contest,

and possibly the Blue and Gold Banquet. I have yet to see any Den be

encouraged to do a skit, sing a song, or show off what they've done in their

den at a Pack Meeting by our Cub Master or Asst. Cub Master. Perhaps that is

expecting too much? There was a Den that had a skit prepared after the

Pinewood Derby. I informed our Cub Master but apparently he had other

commitments both before and after the Pack Meeting and we turned that Den's

Skit away as a result. I was excited about the skit and the Den had worked

hard on it. How would you have felt if you were that Den Leader and those

boys?

 

I also believe the Cub Master and Asst. Cub Master's recent involvement in

the Boy Scout Troop has left the Pack seriously lacking the necessary

leadership of a Cub Master and Asst. Cub Master. We have been short leader

counts to simply attend District functions. Instead, our two main Pack

leaders have volunteered their service with the Troop, where we've had more

than enough adult participation for District events. I was informed on

Friday that our Cub Master has submitted his name and is interested in

becoming the Troop Scout Master. I believe I now understand why there was

such a cloud of confusion in our last Pack leader meeting regarding who was

going to be named Cub Master. Our Cub Master doesn't want to divulge that he

would rather be the Scout Master. Instead there was deception and him-hawing

about who was doing what and who wanted what position, to the disgust of

most of the other Pack Leadership in the meeting. Both Cub Master and the

Asst. Cub Master knew full well what the intentions were and instead of

spitting out the truth, wanted to play a guessing game. We were in a mature

forum of adults and the games should have been left at home. To add to that,

at the same meeting, there was an additional Leader who raised his hand and

showed an interest in the Cub Master position. He was completely disregarded

as a viable Cub Master option and the current Cub Master and Asst. Cub

Master insisted they would either be "trading hats in December" or their

positions would remain as is. I also believe a reason our current Cub Master

wants to stay in his position until December is because that would be when

the time required to earn his Cub Master knot (a personal award) will be

met. In truth, it isn't their decision at all who is or isn't the Cub Master

or Asst. Cub Master, and is rather the Pack Committee's decision and the

Chartered Organization Rep.'s decision who is appointed Cub Master or any

other position within the unit, Pack or Troop. Again, I point to who is

following their own self-interests without regard to the best interests of

the Pack.

 

As far as advancements go, we all know the only dens that have really and

truly received advancements consistently have been those with a key member

of Pack Leadership who is a parent or Den leader. I believed I could make a

difference with that. But I was met with so much ridiculous and unnecessary

resistance, treated as if I was meddling in a leader's personal business,

complained about, ridiculed and talked about behind my back, refused

cooperation and support in my efforts, told I "shouldn't send emails to

everyone and their brother".... I have been left appalled. The same

Leadership that insists "if you want a say-so, what position are you going

to volunteer for in the Pack?".... well I certainly volunteered and have

done my best to see I do what is expected from a Pack Committee Member and

Advancement Chair, however if the way the Cub Master and Asst. Cub Master

have welcomed my efforts is what any parent or volunteer should look forward

to with their deeper involvement in this Pack, I would recommend not

bothering at all. It's not worth the headache! I was appointed into a

position in this Pack and then resented for trying to do that job with

almost every effort. I have tried to apply the Cub Scout Motto- DO YOUR

BEST. I suppose I have done my best.... the best one can do given the

circumstances, but I will not play the games associated with trying to get

the results and cooperation here.

 

The final breaking point of my Cub Scout spirit with this Pack (this week)

was when efforts were put forth to find a temporary leader for a Bear den

while the Leader and Asst. Leader were deployed. After a week and frequent

communication with both of you, we collectively decided since parents in the

den were unable or unwilling to lead in the interim, we should ask a sister

Den Leader. This was done by me in email. I asked the leader in the sister

Den with the least amount of active boys. And as I understand it (correct me

if I'm wrong), our future Comm. Chair discussed my asking briefly with the

sister Den Leader and as she explains it, he didn't seem all too interested

in taking the extra boys on. Because of this and because he never returned

my email regarding the issue, I took that as lack of interest (with complete

understanding) and called upon another Den Leader who just crossed his boys

over to the Troop. He had no den to lead. He agreed to lead the Den in the

interim and I agreed to help him as his Assistant. I informed our Committee

Chair, future Committee Chair, Cub Master and the sister Den Leader. The

response I received from the Cub Master was short, but instead of being

thankful that the Den Leader and myself had stepped up to the plate, he

insisted he had spoken to the sister Den Leader (the disinterested one) and

"he said he didn't have a problem with that. See what he says now," was the

exact wording. This, to me, implied that either my future Committee Chair's

understanding of the sister Den Leader's interest in extending his den was

way off (which I do not believe) or that the Cub Master didn't feel myself

and the Den Leader who finally did volunteer were worthy of the task or he

simply didn't want us to lead the den. I have still not heard from the

sister Den Leader. I replied by email to the Cub Master explaining what our

future Comm. Chair had relayed to me about her discussion with the sister

Den Leader and his probable disinterest. I have yet to hear from the Cub

Master on the issue again so I assume I am still obligated where I promised

the absent Den Leader I would make sure his boys remained active.

 

I have spoken to the Den Leader (Tom Clough) who has agreed to lead the Bear

Den, with me as Asst. Leader, while the regular leaders are deployed. We are

set to commence with meetings on Tuesday, May 6 at 6:30pm. If there is any

strong objections to this by the Pack, please let me and the other leader

know so that we (or I) can make other plans. When the regular Den

Leader/Asst. Den Leader return from deployment, this will end my tenure with

Pack 110 (probably around June 1 or so). I will still make sure the Tiger

Recruitment flyers get passed out to our Kindergarten boys this week also.

And let me know if there is anything else I can do for this month. This also

should not interfere with my running the Summer Day Camp program this July.

I may need your assistance some with that Jennifer, and will still be

looking for some input from Jack O'Toole as well.

 

Unfortunately this will mean I won't stay on to be the Pack Popcorn Kernal,

either. I am sure you'll find someone who will do just fine. (At least I

hope so.) In the meantime, I will give Jennifer everything I have Pack

related, keys to hut, advancement drawer-thingy, records, paperwork, etc. I

will begin forwarding Pack advancement needs to you, Jennifer, if that's

okay? It's just an assumption but I figured you would be handling it until

someone else was recruited? Let me know because I have recently received an

email from Beckey Eibert (yesterday) and I have not answered her because I

have been in deep thought trying to come to a conclusion about this whole

ordeal. I don't mind helping you at all Jenn, with anything, so please don't

think you can't come to me when Mary Anne isn't here or whatever, if you

have a question about anything Scout related or anything else. I believe,

regardless of our involvement in the Pack, we also formed friendships here.

And I respect both of you in that regard as well as for your selfless

efforts and willingness to work with me and all involved in Scouting.

 

I am sorry to go and I am filled with sadness. I do know that I just can't

and won't deal with the games any longer. I will never leave Scouting

because it is a deep passion and I am very involved in it and always will

be. I just can't see my love for the BSA program and my expectations of the

BSA for these boys be degraded and misrepresented by a few bad apples who

may spoil the whole bunch, any longer. I wish you both luck. And I am sure I

will see you around sometimes. I will still be involved at the District

Level and with the new Troop my family is moving to so I will see you at

Roundtables. I understand if it will cause too many problems for you to

continue to travel with me to the meetings or whatever. You both have boys

in the Pack and Troop still. I don't want things to become uncomfortable for

them or you in either unit. And I have seen how ruthless people can be and

how others can become the brunt of tasteless jokes simply because a few

people don't like them. I won't resort to that immaturity level. I'm not

perfect but I'm not willing to revert to Junior High again either! =)

 

Take care Ladies! Talk to you soon!

 

Yours In Scouting,

Joni Fortier

 

 

AND THE REPLIES:

 

From a Pack Den Leader:

 

Joni,

First, I want to say thank you for all that you did

this year for our Cub Scouts. I know one thank you

doesnt cover it, but truly your work, and interest,

and excitement, were, and are appreciated.

Second, thank you for having the courage, and the

respect for yourself, and BSA to say all that you

said. It is something that I have never had the

courage to speak up about, though I wanted to! I have

kids who LOVE Cub Scouting, and wake up thinking of

it, and go to bed planning what to do tomorrow. For

that I kept my mouth shut...I have made the mistake in

the past of treating certain leaders, and their

spouses like grown ups, and then realized when it was

too late that their maturity level was equal to that

of the grade they taught. Anyway...I figured the less

problems the better.

Third, I want you to know that Mary Anne, and yourself

are the only people in the Pack who have ever helped

me or my husband, and this was our second year

involved with this Pack. It is a shame to be loosing

you-and Mary Anne- you are the kind of people I want

my children to emulate...not the current ?leadership?.

 

 

From the current Committee Chair:

Hey Joni!

I completely understand your feelings and I agree with

what Jennifer wrote. I would prefer to sit down and

talk w/ you for a while at some point but today is out

as I have to work. Maybe tomorrow afternoon we could

meet for a coffee at that place next to NFCU? Or I

could come there or whatever. I think you deserve

more than an email from me for all the stuff you've

done and I think I can tell from the tone of your

email (and I HOPE I am not misreading that) that we

can remain friends despite this mess.

 

I truly regret this has happened and both the Pack and

Troop are the ones losing out which means it's the

boys loosing out and that makes me sick. I think some

others have forgotten that the focus of this stuff is

the boys.

 

Well, I need to get my son's shirt ironed before he

leaves for school as he's got a concert today and just

gave me the laundry last night... is that a boy for

you or what?!

 

Take care and let me know if tomorrow afternoon would

work out for you.

 

 

From the future Comm. Chr (Now Secretary):

 

Dear Joni,

It is with deep regret that I accept your resignation from the pack. I

understand your complaints, and unfortunately, believe they are valid. I am

taking my new assignment as Committee Chair of the Pack seriously. There are

steps that I want to put into place that I hope will bring a sense of fun

and unity back to Pack 110. The term "clique" has been used by a number of

people over the past two years to describe our pack leadership. It is high

time we get away from that mentality and open up the adult leadership to

more people and let them get involved and be a part of the team.

Yes, you may turn over your advancement records to me, and I will DO MY

BEST to keep up the records until such time that we get a new advancement

chairman for the pack. I will also help you with the Summer Day Camp -

although with my extreme sensitivity to sun, can't promise that I can sit

out there in the broiling sun in July to help for the entire day. However,

helping out with behind the scenes work, ahead of time (out of the sun) is

with in reason for me.

Thank you for the hard work and effort that you have put in our scouting

program this year, both for the pack and the troop. I have welcomed your

wisdom and experience, and sense of volunteerism.

 

From our District Commissioner:

 

Joni,

 

Thank you for including me on this email. I need to know your side of the

story (as I do all sides). I am truly sorry that the Pack and Troop will be

losing such seasoned and valuable volunteers. I'm confident, though, that

our Lord will lead you both to a Scouting home where you'll be welcomed,

comfortable, and appreciated.

 

In the meantime, I assure you that I'll continue to work and pray for

positive Scouting experiences for ALL boys in the Pack/Troop, as well as

inspiring and strong role models in leadership positions who personify

Scouting's highest ideals.

 

In His Service,

 

From another Den Leader:

 

Joni,

I am sorry that you are leaving the pack. It is certainly pack 110's loss. You are a very giving person to have taken the job on at all.

 

From the ACM's wife:

 

I just read your email. I am so upset. I do not claim to know any of

the ins and outs, but when you talk about my husband the way you did, it

does involve me. He is a good man who has dedicated almost 3 years to

the pack. For you to say he is in it for his boys only, is ABSURD! Did

you ever think that he was excited for his boys, that he worked hard for

them, in all the dens he works on, to earn what they rated? I think your

comments have had a huge impact on me, more so than on my husband. I

truly wish you and your family all the best, and hope that you feel

better having criticized and slammed my husband. It is sad that you

have no idea the type of person he is. You truly have missed out on a

wonderful scout leader and person. I will not comment on anything else.

The pack is growing, and if no one else will step up to the plate then I

know that the same few will do all that they can. He has given up many

hours of family time to work on Scouts. One more thing, no one can make

you feel uncomfortable or unwanted unless you let them! As you say, we

are all adults.

Good luck to you and your family. Peace be with you.

 

 

I have chosen not to respond to ANY of these notes... but the overwhelming majority shows how others feel at least in the Pack. The Troop was more my husband's forte as he was an ASM and I was simply a Committee Member, which is why I don't say much about the Troop we just left.

 

And, as far as the Voting in the Scout or Cub Master, that's what I was told by my District Scout Executive, as he passed the info to all District members at the Coordinated District Meeting, so if he's wrong, where shall I let him know he needs to read this? Thanks, I want to give an accurate representation about BSA policy!

 

Okay, I am a chick and thought I was emotional enough being 6 months pregnant. That story takes the cake! Thank you Korea Scouter! I sort of needed that this evening!

 

=.)

Hi Scrapper! That's so neat... Tigers.. gotta luv 'em!

 

I do pretty much agree with most posts on this thread. Honest evaluations on your toddler, understanding the Den Leader, taking others into consideration, all that. Definitely bring pletny for your 3 yr old to do so that you're not imposing on the den leader!

 

I know how nerve-racking your situation can be. I have an 11yr old Boy Scout and then my next youngest is a 2yr old... well I have been a Wolf, Bear and Webelo leader... in fact I was a Den Leader all through my pregnancy and still led the den after the baby was born, attached to me in a sling! haha.. those were the good ole days. She's now a toddler, forget it, she's all over the place, also in her Lil' Scout Buddy shirt =) I've had to bring her to Roundtables even and so has my husband.

 

I am confused as to why you don't know when/where meetings are to be held at? Do they move from place to place? Why aren't they the same time/day every week? Anyhow, hang in there, they'll be crossing over to Wolf in the next couple months and that's a whole different ball game.

 

Honestly, if you don't HAVE TO BE THERE for your son's Wolf meeting, it might be easier if you don't go to every meeting? Maybe you can do every other? Or once a month or something? The concentration level at the Tiger stage is much lower than the focus level at the Wolf age, requirement wise. If there is a good Wolf Den leader and an Assistant Den leader, along with a couple other active parents, there's no need for every Wolf parent to be at the Den Meeting. But every child is different.

 

Some kids behave better when their parents just drop them off. Other kids of Wolf age behave better when the parent stays with the child. In some extreme cases, I had a parent once that wouldn't leave his kid alone at the den meeting and had to do all his projects FOR HIM so they would look good. That poor kid never got to be creative and truly was scouting for the father's sake. Needless to say, the kid lost interest and quit scouting. You've got to give the boy room to grow some, on his own, away from his parents. You don't accompany him to school every day right? Same philosophy here, I think.

 

As far as the snacks go I don't know why they'd give snacks at the beginning or middle of any meeting! I never did, always did it at the end, about 10-15 min. before the meeting was over. And point two, I always had a rotating schedule on a calendar, planned ahead, that I passed out that had each scout's "Snack Day" on it clear as day. Ya can't tell other people what you think they should bring for their snack but you can sure control what YOU provide on your son's Snack Day! =)

 

Please stick with scouting, it's not just a volunteer job, it's an adventure! Pack Committee is a good place to volunteer when you have a young toddler because it's somewhat behind the scenes and not directly involved with the boys except at Pack functions, which works out good for me, too. It's more administrative than hands-on in my opinion and instead of a weekly obligation, it may narrow down to 1-3 days per month, but may be more "toddler-forgiving" to your situation.

 

Good luck in what happens, you're in the right place. This is one of the best forums I have found for decent Scouting advice! =)

Hi Bob White and Scoutldr,

 

Bob White, I am sorry about junping from Pack to Troop... for me, it's all one organization, and because I am deeply involved and passionate in both units they do spill over into each other's business. It's also the same "problem folks" in both units that I deal with.

 

Scoutldr, Listen with regard to the knots and awards, I think I need to clarify something... it's not that I don't think the CM and ACM or anyone else that wears them does not deserve the awards because they doe and should wear them proudly. Definitely many prefer not to wear them (one being my husband who knows very well the importance of medals and uniforms, being in the Marine Corps for 25 years!) The point I was trying to make is that they are only out for themselves. It would have been just as easy to go over the requirements with every Tiger Leader, Den Leader, Webelo Leader, and Committee Member and see to it that everyone who was deserving received their knots, too.

 

The "PACK TRAINER" you speak about is also the ACM and he could care less about anyone or anything if doesn't have something to do with himself or his children. (The "What am I going to get out of it mentality" I keep talking about) You're absolutely correct, the Advancement Chair (ME) shouldn't have to be concerned with putting Leaders in for knots. But our CC had no idea what they were, and 5 out of 8 of our inexperienced, untrained Leaders also are not aware that knots and things exist for them. I wanted to see to it that these unselfish and dedicated leaders received some recognition for their hard work in our unit.

 

Along with the knots I was going to get the Youth Protection video from District and see to it they all got that training as well. Some have been leaders for over a year and never had any training, including YP. It's definitely not my responsibility but how long should one sit back and wait for a volunteer to "do their job" with good conscience? Perhaps I should just sit back and wait for the good turns of our leaders to go un-noticed as well as the children in the Pack AND TROOP that aren't the CM and ACM's children? I can't do that. It's just like sitting around with a boy who's in definite need of the Scouting program and ignoring him because he's not the brightest bulb in the box or not the strongest. My good conscience won't let me do that either. Neither will the ideals of the BSA!

 

Did I mention that from June 2002 through March 2003, the ONLY boys to receive advancements were the children in the dens of the CC, CM and ACM? The CM and ACMs sons received their religious medals here... and one of the boys actually said, "I DID?" The CM and ACM go through and check things off they think their kids have done and the boys don't even get the benefit of being made aware they've done a requirement. Instead they're shocked when they're given awards. Is that what we've come to with the BSA? Just hand over awards like they mean nothing?

 

The same two adults claim they took my son in the Troop through their Totin' Chip requirements over a weekend campout. The next week my son asked his father if he would show him how to sharpen a knife. Apparently while the CM and ACM were "teaching" the boys, there was no sharpening stone, so they just "bypassed that requirement" and "checked it off"... and this is the 3rd Year WEBELOS program they want to run! In my opinion, it's more like a Tiger program! I want MY Scout to LEARN something for what he's earned, not be handed awards because it makes me look like a good leader/adult/parent!

 

Until I got with every leader and every boy and went through their handbooks, with the parents.... not one Leader knew even HOW to put their den in for awards let alone what awards were available. Good Pack Trainer we have huh? We spent over $350 in April just on advancements alone (badges, belt loops, Sports/Academics pins) and for that I was resented, too. As if... how dare I spend "THEIR" money and give awards to kids other than the chosen few... that's the attitude I got!

 

Anyway, I don't feel me sticking around with this Pack/Troop (with the same CRO) will do any good. I am one person without a child in the Pack (there may be 2-3 of us), outside the inner circle where there are 4-5 adult leaders and each have at least 2 children in the Pack, some 3. My husband and I make 2 people in the Troop with one son in, another ASM makes 1 person with two boys in the Troop. Then there are 4-5 ASMs with about 6 boys total.

 

We're outnumbered, I can't fix them, and I am not going to try to blackball these people or give them a bad name either. They can run their Pack AND TROOP, the way they want... I just refuse to be a part of it! And as I said before, I choose to leave because there is a difference of opinion and understanding between myself and some members of the Admin. regarding Scouting ideals, BSA policies and the implementation of the BSA program, as well as how finances should be handled according to BSA policy.

 

I cannot, in good conscience, remain a part of these units and allow my family to be a part of these units, either. It would be going against every one of my morals and personal codes, as well as (I believe) every single goal of the BSA!

I totally appreciate all the words of encouragement, suggestions and advice. And I have brought the issues to the attention of my District. I should mention I am on a small Japanese island on the Pacific Ocean and our council is headquartered in mainland Japan. I doubt I will ever see a member of our Council leadership and chances are I will never be graced with the presence of the Council Hut either... lol

 

Anyhow, I have explained some of the situations to our Senior Scout Executive, as well as the District Registrar and other District leaders. I have gone to them for advice and suggestions as I have here. They've been quite helpful, and it was one of the Dist. reps that suggested it may be financial audit time for this Pack, not myself. I however, totally agree. There is an issue of a missing $125 that I myself counted from a silent auction fundraiser. $125 of that income is still unaccounted for, since the beginning of March.

 

I will say, with the exception of myself, the only other two trained leaders in the Pack are the CubMaster and Asst. CubMaster. No one else is trained, no one else is youth protection trained, no other leaders are told about training dates or if they are, simply don't respond or are not interested in taking the training. Interesting since our Asst. CubMaster is supposed to be our Pack's person responsible to see that our leaders get Training. Also, our CubMaster will not agree to paying for their training even though the committee voted that the Pack would. Since CubM holds the checkbook, apparently he has the final say. Again, no one wants to make waves I suppose.

 

Anyhow, I have made a commitment to stick with the Pack until the end of May. I am covering a Den leader's absence due to a military deployment. And I promised this man, and the den parents that I would not let their boys fall through the cracks and that they would remain active in scouting while the leader and his assistant leader are on military orders. The CC, CM and ACM all knew for 2 weeks that this den had no meeting and needed a leader.... no one chose to act, so I did. When this Den leader returns, I will be leaving the Pack.

 

I am the District Summer Day camp program director (for the segment occuring at our Pack's local park) also and I understand I don't have to be Pack affiliated to run that, however I doubt I will get much cooperation either, at least from the leaders I deal with now. It will be their loss!

 

Aside from that I have realized I am beating a dead horse with the lack of support from the current Pack Administration and I have become ineffective as a leader/team player. I have not and never will be invited to "their team" and as a result can't really provide the Pack with my services. It seems to me I'm not needed nor wanted and in either case that amounts to a waste of my time to keep trying, only to pound another nail into my coffin with this Pack AND Troop.

 

I've met the same resistance with the Troop because any part of my involvement is resented by the same few people. And it's not just me, it's anyone outside of the "clique" who wants to be a part of the unit... we're all treated this way. And these are the issues being brought to the District.

 

As the District watches the Pack and Troop lose boys, leaders, and their refusal to participate in FOS, leading with their "only if it's for me, I'm for IT" mentality... more of the disgust will be exposed. In the meantime, I will take my family to the Troop that wants a boy-led troop and not a spoon-fed, ordered clique.

 

Thanks for all your words. I have spoken to a leader at another Troop and I will be transferring my son there on Monday! Needless to say my husband and myself will follow shortly. And in about a month I will bow out of the Pack Admin. gracefully and tactfully, without making a stir. It's not important to me to "let people know why I am leaving".... it's more important to me to get with THE REAL BSA program FINALLY!

 

 

 

Bob White,

 

I am sorry, I think you may have misunderstood my involvement with the Pack. I am a leader in the Cub Pack.... I am the Advancement Chair, Fundraising Chair, "all around Committee Member", one of the only 3 active committee members other than the CubMaster and Asst. CubMaster. So I really am directly involved with the Pack at Leadership level and therefor have a vested interest in the way the Pack is run as a result.

 

It's the same difficult people in the Pack that have now infiltrated the Troop, which really just compounds the problems and marries the Pack problems into the Troop problems. The issues are the same with the same people, if that makes any sense?

 

I don't know... as I said, I am posting here, with the most objectivity I can, for advice and to listen to others with more experience. I realize there are two sides to every coin. But a true leader will subject him/herself to their peers for advice and suggestions, while an inadequate, self-serving leader will assume no one knows more than they do... and there is no need to ask anyone for advice nor include anyone in decision making...

Thank you, all for the replies of support and honesty.

 

I have attended every roundtable since November (just got here in September), have volunteered also on the District (I am the Dist. Membership person), have never missed a committee meeting or parent/leader meeting. I am a very involved committee member, and unfortunately our CC is leaving in June, and the person taking her place "doesn't want to make waves" and also has a son in CubMaster's den. I really do feel I am doing all that I can do. I have solicited advice from the District, especially since I am also involved there. I am within minutes of asking for a financial audit because I am so disgusted with the way records are kept.

 

I suppose I should have clarified when I said "ready to quit SCOUTS!".... I am certainly ready to quit THIS PACK and TROOP! But I would never abandon Scouting as a whole. I have one son, who's an Eagle Scout, another who is a first-year Boy Scout (working on Tenderfoot), one Cadet Girl Scout, and two future Brownies =) (They're 2yrs old and one 6 months still in the womb!)

 

My husband is a 14+ yr Scouter, been everything from Den Leader to ScoutMaster throughout all that time in several units across the globe, has his Wood Badge, OA... and until recently (upon my insistence) has never been put in for Veteran Service Award or ANY knots... He maintains he's never been in scouting for his own personal recognition. I feel the same way, been in scouting for over 6 years and never once put myself in or expected any committee to put me in for any leader awards. I am here to see the boys get awards, not myself.

 

Just wish our CubMaster and his best buddy, Asst. CubMaster felt the same way.... those two are the only two leaders who HAVE leader knots.. and guess what? Our committee (which I am on) never put them in for them and was never made aware... they put themselves in, but never bothered to consider our other dedicated Den Leaders for awards either.

 

My family came to this unit with a BSA Family Award that we worked very hard to earn throughout an entire summer... and CubMaster and Asst. CubMaster noticed it on my transfer form... commented that they never heard of the award before... within 6 weeks suddenly both of them and their families had "earned and received" the BSA Family award. I am the advancements chair and neither one of them went through me for it, they just put themselves in... a very indicative representation of what I put up with here. They're in it for themselves and if they and their own children are not involved in "it", "it" isn't important.

 

I refuse to watch the same mentality and lack of scouting ideals being forced upon the Troop.... these men don't want to run a Boy Scout Troop, they want to run a 3rd Year WEBELOS program... and I just can't stand it. They are currently patrol parents/asst. ScoutMasters in our Troop... they could care less that the other 2 patrols need help in leadership and have less than adequate parent involvement, with boys that could really use the Scouter guidance. Not one of the 3 Asst. ScoutMasters/parents in the one patrol are interested in applying their assistance into a patrol their son is not involved in. They want the entire Troop to be run and operated and leaded by THEM AND THEIR PATROL ONLY... and don't have room for other leaders or patrols.

 

These men have already hand-selected who they believe the Senior Patrol Leader should be in the future, plugging in their own sons/Scouts (who have only 6 months experience, just crossed over to the Troop in January) and discount other more experienced Scouts, some with 3-4 years simply because they believe their sons will then be able to lead the Troop by the end of summer camp. So it doesn't seem to matter to these men that there are other boys in that Troop that are capable. Because their children WILL BE CAPABLE, the other boys are apparently not welcome to leadership positions in their eyes. Same goes for the adult Leadership and any other Scout parents. These men ridicule other boys and their parents behind their backs and don't want to hear any suggestions for their leadership improvement. Since they feel they are capable, they don't believe anyone else should be involved in Adult leadership. They make decisions outside of the Troop meetings amongst themselves for their patrol and don't seem to want the entire Troop to run in any other fashion... and yes, boys are dropping like flies already... much like we lost half the Pack recruits from last September because of these same people

and their warped translation of Scouting ideals.

 

My husband has already made it clear to the administration, he has quit the Troop and is now looking for another Troop to serve in. My son will be moving to that Troop, once it's found and I will be, as well.

 

As far as the Pack, I am still undecided. I have managed to make some breakthroughs but am not convinced the politics in the Troop won't spill over into the Pack as well, as it's the same leaders I would have to deal with. With our committee chair leaving in June, who has been one of the main reasons I have stayed with the Pack, I can't see fighting the unapproachable inner circle that will be left in her wake.

 

I may get more deeply involved at District level and may even request a financial audit of my current Pack. I may have a discussion with the Dist. Commissioner about the issues, who is also a Military Command Chaplain, for advice and suggestions. Perhaps he can probe into the situation and rectify it. Other than that, I believe I will continue Scouting with another unit that has an understanding of Scouting ideals, BSA policies and implementation of the BSA program that more closely resembles my beliefs.

 

Please keep the advice coming. I am listening!

After several months of unselfish volunteerism, meeting obstacle after obstacle in accomplishing simple tasks within my Pack, I believe I am ready to call it quits. I can't fight the clique any longer....

 

I am frequently undermined, constantly resisted, ignored, and unappreciated. I am treated like I am meddling in other people's affairs. And all I was trying to do was help.... simple things like get a Pack's advancements straightened out (volunteered for Advancement chair), provide our boys with the recognition they deserve and have worked so hard for (went to everyone's den meetings and went through their scout's handbooks recording their accomplishments to enter into PackMaster), help with scout recruitment (printed flyers and set-up their disbursement at our elementary school) and fundraising (have participated in several bake sales and volunteered to be the popcorn kernal). When I got to this Pack, no Den leader kept ANY advancement record on ANY of the kids, there were no advancements given and none of the leaders were educated about the resources for record keeping and advancements. Some dens didn't even know there was such a thing as belt loops!!!! Our CubMaster, who is also a den leader, had PackMaster, and only used it as a computer "phone book."

 

I insisted on a financial planning meeting because our committee was in disarray, we were told we were broke. The Treasurer, married to the CubMaster shows up to the meeting and 1)doesn't have the checkbook 2)has no idea where the bank statements are 3)has never balanced the Pack's checkook and 4)insists that her husband usually takes care of that (The CubMaster). Am I wrong because I question the financial status of our Pack given these circumstances? What's worse is CubMaster tells us we have $100 dollars in the account but he, too has never balanced the checkbook..... when our Committee Chair gets involved, she petitions our Charter Org. for a donation, they give us $500, Comm. Chr. then goes through the checkbook, bank statements (though many were missing), goes to the bank, backtracks, and discovers not only do we not have $100 in our account, we had an extra $500 that no one even knew existed!!!! And I am still wrong to question who's keeping the records on this Pack?

 

Items are purchased with no committee approval, things like baker's tents, zippered-closed shade bungaloes and dining flies... $860 worth of "NEEDS"... for the Pack, and I find out the CubMaster takes them along when he participates in Troop functions!!!! Well I am also a Comm. Member on the Troop and I am FRIED about all this.

 

In Sept., we had a ScoutMaster ready to take over when the current SM leaves.... and everyone talked about what a great idea it was, including the CubMaster. Now that the time has come for the change in command, the CubMaster wants to dump the Cub Pack and run to be the ScoutMaster... in my opinion, he's done nothing for the Cubs that would warrant my vote into the Troop as a leader!

 

Our current CubMaster doesn't encourage family values, doesn't encourage other Pack and Den leaders to participate in pack planning (he wants to make all the decisions himself), doesn't encourage scouts and dens to perform skits, doesn't encourage and remain open to parents or suggestions from potential volunteers, new leaders, doesn't offer to teach or provide new, unskilled leaders with tools to succeeed. Instead he complains about how they lack as a den leader or lack as a parent.... He doesn't encourage anyone but himself to get awards.... very self-serving individual. And resents when others "out-shine" him in any way. (Which is why he now wants to put his name in the hat for ScoutMaster and dump the Cubs... because he doesn't want to be out-scouted.

 

CubMaster resents me because I have insisted advancements only go through me! (I am the advancement chair!) He wasn't filling out Advancement Reports for District/Council, and was just picking up awards for the kids in HIS den... so I said NO, I need to record them in PackMaster and I need to file the proper paperwork at District. I was going to take over advancements for the Troop... over my dead body will I be forced into the same relentlessly obstacled position with the SAME PERSON in the Troop as well as the Pack....

 

The person that was going to take over as ScoutMaster in the Troop would have brought 15 years scouting experience into the Troop and now he's quit the Troop and is looking for another Troop to support. Along with him people are leaving the Troop because they can't bear to see how the CubMaster that lacks people skills will run the Troop, a dedicated Committee Member, an Asst. ScoutMaster, possibly a third leader and at least 4 boy scouts are leaving as a result of this....

 

Did I mention that I have no children in the Pack, and one son in the Troop??? I wonder... does the word SUCKER appear on my forehead or something? I love Scouting, and I love the ideals in the program, I am trained and I enjoy what I do, FOR THE BOYS! But it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch... and I think I am about volunteered out... I've been a Den leader, a committee member, I've been a den mother, blue & gold committee, run events, never grumbled and always gave of myself freely. Now I look at one disgusting person and I think... WHY am I HERE???

 

Any suggestions from any of you who've been around long enough to see cliques and political kudzu in these types of Units? Any advice for me before I lose it?

 

Thanks!

 

packsaddle, So did you actually have a legitimate question or were you just provoking me to elaborate on the facts I gave?

re: question #1- yeah of course ALL (100%) of government spending is supposed to be for the benefit of the public.

question #2- Yes, we vote for and approve tax spending.....

and what else did you ask??? Ahhh, yes....

question #3- no I do not suggest that expending government funds for personal or private gain would somehow be better than for public benefit.

 

Where the heck did you come up with these questions? Did I say I agreed or disagreed with the FACTS I stated in my post?

 

In fact my post was in response to those on the board who felt like we spent MORE on National DEFENSE (Meaning the MILITARY, which during war time and war protests, those who protest most certainly do not believe the National Defense and military spending is FOR THEIR PUBLIC BENEFIT!) than on anything else in the country, to include social welfare (and by Social Welfare I mean food stamps, welfare checks, social security, HUD housing, county assistance payments, etc.).... that belief is simply not true, and that's all I was saying. The truth of the matter is that National Defense (at 19% of the Fed. Govt's income *which mainly comes from taxes*) ranks #2 out of 5 in what Fed. gov't. spends, however makes up less than half of our #1 expenditure, which is INCOME SECURITY (50%)!

 

National Defense ranks 5% above "other", 6% above Interest payments and 15% above Health and Education.

 

I am not giving an opinion on this at all, these are just the facts, sir!

Well I am glad we didn't make up prices because it rained all day and I only had one cub scout show up to "help" and all he did was run around and jump up and down in the puddles! Good thing I had my almost Tenderfoot Boy Scout with me or I'd have been selling by myself at that military camp. If it weren't for the two Eagle Scouts that gave me $20 each and the many others who gave a buck but didn't take food, we'd have been sunk!

 

There were other leaders and cub scouts at two separate military camps within our jurisdiction. I guess between the 3 points of sale, we made about $350. BIG DEAL! But.... better than nothing!

I ended up "donating" about 80 cupcakes, 45 brownies, two cakes and 8 dozen cookies to the church (Our CO). This wasn't quite the way we wanted the bake sale to turn out but oh well!

Thanks for all the replies!

The biggest expenditure in local and state government is Education and Public Welfare combined- a whopping 59%!!! Civilian safety is 10%,

 

The biggest expenditure for federal government is income security (social security, welfare, humanitarian aid within the US) at a whopping 50%, 19% for National Defense, 14% for "other" and 13% for interest, the last 4% going to health and education.

 

At 50% of the U.S. expense and 59% of the state and local expenses, I think the US spends more on public aid than any other country, short of a pure socialist economy. Our economy is defined as WELFARE CAPITALISM! So what does that tell you? Of course there are some parts of the U.S. economy that have socialist traits, too. And, besides that we aren't operating in a "democracy" either, this is a REPUBLIC government system.

 

Sorry, it's my economist side coming out!

 

As far as the war with Iraq is concerned.... well.... is it really worth it to sit around and argue about it? Congress passed it, and the Senate passed the budget for it, end of story. Anyone who thinks we are in an "unjust war" because of the hypocracy in the UN must be joking. The UN never has and never will govern ANY country in it's membership. Just like NAFTA, WTO and the former GATT, the UN members hold voluntary membership and except for the WTO has no governing policies that hold the U.S. or any other country in it's jurisdiction!

 

And I will take my FREEDOM toast with a side of FREEDOM fries, thank you very much! =)~

Well I hate to not be in uniform. It's leaders in their uniforms that set the example for the boys. I suppose I will have to get crafty and figure something out...... olive green shorts maybe.... as far as the shirt, well for 4 months I hope other Scouters and Scouts don't care about plain or BSA-related polo and t-shirts! I will miss my tan uniform shirt... I've been wearing it up until now but I don't think I'll last another 3 weeks!

The JSA does things a little bit differently than we are used to in the USA but they are wonderful people! We get together for events like Camporees, District events, and ourJamborette, too.

 

Here's the Far East Council webpage:

http://www.fareastscouts.com/

 

Addresses:

Far East Council, Japan Council Serv. Ctr.

Boy Scouts of America

APO AP 96343-5005

 

Japanese address:

 

Beigun No. 101 Room 125

Zama-Shi, Kanagawa-Ken 228

 

Phone Numbers:

DSN - 263-7494/7497

Fax - 263-7478

In Japan - 0462-51-1520-263-xxxx

Outside of Japan - 81-311-763-xxxx

 

Send an email to: Boyscout@zama.army.mil

 

For Okinawa:

E-mail to: mseiber@bsamail.org

 

Okinawa address:

BSA Okinawa Office

MCB Camp Foster Unit 35049

FPO AP 96373-5049

 

Japanese Mailing Address:

DHL only: Okinawa Service Center

Building 4150

Far East Council, BSA, Camp Foster

Kita Naka Gusuku-son

 

Telephone Contact Numbers:Military DSN

DSN: 645-9236/2400

DSN Fax: 645-3850

Domestic Japanese Number:

Tone: 098-892-5111

ext. 645-2400/Fax 645-3850

 

 

Yup, 2 words (might be one) Pack Master! It's worth it! I am an Advance Chr., too and I don't think I could live without this program. I have also made a copy for all my Den Leaders which eases the record keeping for them as well. In addition to the Pack Master/Den Master program, it's a good idea to have a Wall Chart so the boys can see how they're doing as well.

LALeader, to answer your question:

""Another question - with new info learned about these particular leaders - if there is an active social service investigation regarding this husband/wife team and they are both registered leaders - is this our business / none of our business / a private family matter?""

 

Did you take Youth Protection Training? If so, this should not even be a question- you are to report it if it concerns ANY TYPE OF ABUSE-- review Youth Protection guidelines or ask a District Executive if you have any questions or concerns about this issue. You didn't really say what the issue was so I am clarifying only on a general ABUSE issue level. If YOU or another Pack/Den Leader have concerns you are to report it, it's not your place to figure out of you believe it or think it's true.

In our Pack, any registered leaders as well as any parents that want to, go to Roundtable. We have a Committee/Den Leader/CubMaster, Asst. CubMaster/Parent meeting the following week. I am the Advancement Chr. for our Pack.

 

I'll tell ya, it doesn't matter what we call the title of the meeting here at this Pack, it's always the same 6 people showing up. The CubMaster used to decide on everything that normally the Pack Committee would decide, and is married to the Treasurer. **NOT GOOD as we now have NO MONEY in the Pack's account** The CubMaster is also a Den Leader, the Asst. CubMaster is a Den Leader in one den and an Asst. Leader in another and up until I showed up the Treasurer did the advancements, too! But of course NO ONE kept ANY advancement records and our financial records are a mess, too... MIA at this point.... talk about the IMperfect Pack world.... I am slowly (with the help of our Secretary and Committee Chr.) getting this Pack back on track!

NOTE: keep in mind this is a Military pack and our leaders leave every three years to go to another duty station.... it only takes one disorganized leader/Committee and another one to follow for the entire Pack to be screwed up for the next 6 years!

 

Of course in other Packs I have been involved in, there was the District Meeting at the beg. of the month, the Roundtable the 2cnd week of the month, then the Pack Committee would meet the 3rd week of the month (Treasurer, Advance. Chr., CubMaster, Committee Chair, Secretary, Fundraising Chr., Outdoor Activity Chr.) **Yeah we had a large Pack and ample Leaders**

And it was the Committee, along with CubMaster's REQUESTS that decided on how the Pack was run, what we spent money on and what our activities would be.

 

Cubs aren't Boy Scouts and because I am also a Troop Committee member I know the units are run entirely different from each other.

 

If your Comm. Chr. can't attend a meeting and at least sends some type of agenda with SOMEONE, unless there is some major lack of communication between the Comm. Chr., the rest of your Comm. members, and you, the CubMaster I wouldn't worry about it but I might speak to your Comm. Chair about their involvement level and if perhaps the meeting schedule needed to be changed so that he/she could be present from now on?

 

Just my two cents... sorry for the long post!

I know, silly question! But not for me, I am 5 months pregnant and can't seem to find a pair of dark green maternity pants out there anywhere! I bought a huge tan uniform shirt but I think I don't feel like duplicating all those patches for only like 4 more months and I will get away with wearing Polo and T-shirts in the meantime. However, I would like to find some scout green pants!

Any ideas?

THANKS!

Well thanks... I hope it all works out. I am unsure because we are going to a military base where there are mainly unmarried young men, some not even drinking age. The government sure doesn't pay much and I don't think I was too generous at that age as far as charities and things. These guys don't really get "home-cooked meals" so We'll see! I prefer to have a price set but perhaps we'll be better off.

I was told I can't designate a price for the baked goods on sale and that I can ONLY accept donations for the goods. Is that true?

THANKS!

YIS