Joni4TA

I would say things are REALLY starting to deteriorate badly in the Troop I serve.

Last night we had a Troop COH. The SM was unable to attend because his son was having a school choir concert. So the SPL and ASPL MC'd the event with some help from me, The Advancements Coord. - just helped them get the right advancements and recognition onto the table behind them in an orderly fashion so they could find it all without fumbling in front of the crowd.

Towards the end of the COH, the SPL was making announcements about upcoming PL elections and the JLT following them. This was supposed to be announced in more detail by the SM but as I said, SM couldn't be at the COH. So the SPL deferred elaboration to me as far as time and place.

I said "Yes, JLT will be given by the SM at X time and Y place."

(To preface, I have NEVER had a problem or issue with the ASM I am about to discuss.)

I was immediately blasted by an ASM who hardly ever shows up for meetings or campouts and offers very little to the Troop. She comes to the COH last night not in uniform, with her son, the boy who became "Eagle Scout" at 14, who hardly ever shows up to meetings, "can't find his uniform" and therefor comes to the COH last night looking dishevveled with wrinkled clothes and unkempt hair.

The ASM blasts me loudly, "NO! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JLT." To which I replied, "YES, there is." And then the ASM and her Eagle Scout son both jumped my ass yelling at me in stereo, "NO, THERE"S NOT." So I said, "Well the old JLT is all the Troop has and that's what the SM is giving!"

It got ugly.

The ASM and her son continued to yell at me about JLT being outdated, and the ASM insisted that "SHE'd been to Philmont last year" and taken some course (I don't recall which one she said) and how the SM can't teach the "NEW NYLT" because HE wasn't a qualified instructor, but SHE was, and SHE needed to train the SM BEFORE any scouts were to get trained and SHE was the only one with the course material. So I retorted, "Then why were the last TWO SPL's not trained by YOU, better yet why were they NOT TRAINED AT ALL?????? She shut up at that point, and we moved on and the SPL closed the COH.

I am going to readily admit that it wasn't the time or the place to have the pissing contest. I didn't mean for it to escalate to that level. I should have just zipped my lips and let her and Mr. Obedient - the Eagle Scout - look like the jerks. Instead I jumped right into the jerk pile with them. I felt like I was verbally attacked by both of them and my defenses went up and I reacted. Not making an excuse at all, it's just what happened. I lost control of my tongue/temper.

I didn't appreciate being blasted by another adult leader for simply passing on information. I wasn't saying **I** was giving the damn JLT, the SM is! But the SM wasn't there to make the announcement. Her issue should have been with the SM, not raising her voice at me and causing a scene in the middle of a COH. Besides that, the fact that her 16yr old son chimed in with complete disrespect and yelled at me too was DEAD WRONG. Of course she never corrected her son and allowed him to continue to yell at me because he was the perfect mouthpiece for her. All he did was repeat everything she said.

Come to find out later, this ASM wants to teach the SM how to train youth using the NYLT course material, but NYLT is a COUNCIL program/course and SHE can't teach the kids in our unit didley squat unless she does it on a COUNCIL frickin level! So she freaked out on me for nothing and opened her mouth and inserted her foot.

I already KNEW the old JLT was replaced by TLT - but the TLT leaves MUCH to be desired. However it's what we had here at the Troop level and in lieu of NOTHING (which is what the troop leadership has been used to getting) everyone figured the old JLT was better than zero! The SM, the CC, another Committee Member and myself were ok with the SM using the old JLT video - AND - most parts of the new TLT syllabus. The absent ASM apparently didn't like this idea but only just found out about it yesterday and it pissed her off, clearly! Still not entirely sure WHY though?????

My thing is - if the ASM had an objection she should have brought it up AFTER the COH or just simply at another time, period. It wasn't the time or the place. My second observation is, the woman barely shows up for any meetings or campouts and all of a sudden when she hears the old JLT is going to be used she has a problem with that and is out for blood? She prefers NO TRAINING AT ALL (until she sets up Council level training (which we already have) - over the use of a combination of the old JLT and the new TLT????

I am not sure if it's related to this argument between the ASM and myself, but last night we had a different ASM resign from the Troop. He claimed he had a project he was working on and it would demand more of his time than he expected, and he didn't want to be just an ASM on paper.

I still don't know why the arguing ASM was so adamant about this JLT thing, and why she freaked out on me. Personally I don't even want to talk to her now unless she plans on apologizing to me.

And with all the other problems I feel there are in this Troop, we sure didn't need another one. Maybe what's going on is because my voice has been loud about Patrol Method and aims of Scouting lately? Maybe it's because the SM has disengaged somewhat from the Troop and all our ASM's are pretty much sporadic contributors at best? Maybe it's just all because of me trying to effect change? Maybe it's because we've never been boy-led, boy-run nor given the boys the tools to succeed and I have really stressed that, so the ASM feels guilty for not being around to help in that process??

I don't know, but I am deeply troubled.

Now on to an actual reply -

I think some of you are right - and as long as the SM wants to run this Troop like a monthly Family Camping Program - that's all it is ever going to be The boys here will never TRULY benefit nor attain the level of pride a REAL Boy Scout should.

That's a shame!

BobWhite!!! - right on time, with ANOTHER assumption (see my post in Advancements about the Advancement Chair who expects too much and wants to quit - page 3)

Bob, Bob, Bob - no dear.......... my husband is NOT my son's current Scoutmaster! he WAS the SM for my son's Troop in the 2004-2005 time frame. Since then we have moved from Okinawa, Japan, to Northern CA, and now we live in TX. So hey - that was 3 Troops ago if you're keeping count!

Way to search posts buddy! Did you handpick 'em too?

Hey BobWhite!! Not only was that "helpful" - you know the old saying about ASS-U-ME and assuming things right? Well read on mi compadre...

You wrote:

"Joni,

In May of 2003 on this forum you started a thread titled "I am so fed up and disgusted I am ready to quit SCOUTS!

It was about the cubmaster in the pack where you were on the committee. That Cubmaster went to the troop and you chose to follow him there.

And now after 5 years of constantly complaining about him through numerous threads you start another thread titled ....Ready to Quit!

How long does it take you to figure out that you do not like this man and you do not work well together???

For your own sanity someone should quit. Since over 5 years of you complaining about him hasn't made him quit, maybe for your own good you should be the one to step out of the picture. Certainly the bickering between the two of cannot be good for the others who must put up with it in the troop?

Think of all the things you could be doing with your time that you actually could enjoy rather than continue this unhealthy relationship.

Ready to quit? Well, perhaps it's time?"

Since May of 2003 -

I transferred from the Pack, and its leaders in question, to a Troop in the same council but not affiliated with the Pack leadership I talked about in that post -

AND THEN two years later I made a transfer to another Council over 10,000 miles away

and FROM THERE, two years ago - to my current council and Troop 1,800 miles from the second Council.

You made a really bad assumption that I would follow that jackass from Pack to Troop and remain there for 5 years complaining about it. My husband was military for 26 years - we've moved every 3 years we've been together like clock-work and been involved in over 7 councils and numerous units across the globe. I am sorry if you didn't know this, but your post made me painfully aware of how highly you think of me.

It's terrible to assume buddy!

I guess I have no choice but to bite the cheese and answer the trick question because for those that asked, their probably hanging on whether I am fully "trained" or not. And down will come the handle on the mousetrap. Whatever will be will be...

No, I have not taken Wood Badge training.

Why should I? For one I have not been in a financial position to afford it and two, I am not a direct contact leader; I have always functioned on the committee. I took Scoutmaster training 4 years ago just so I could understand better, what the SM's function in a Troop was supposed to be, so that I could serve my unit better by supporting them.

And three, my husband was WB trained in the early 1990's and has given me his course material and explained/taught me as best he can, what the gist of the experience was for him. I accepted this teaching, but WB has apparently changed A LOT since he went through it. He feels it has been extremely dumbed down to suit the masses and that it's no longer the second in line to elite training (Philmont being first, where he took Strictly for Scoutmasters) an adult Boy Scout Leader can take. And from what my dear husband has told me - he feels the leaders that are serving the particular unit our son is in and are WB beaders, took nothing from the experience except how to BE a Scout, and not how to better guide the Scouts so that the SCOUTS can lead the unit effectively.

In other words, the unit I serve has 3 WB beaders but basically they poo-poo the patrol method and make excuses about WHY our Troop can't use it - everything from "we only have 18 boys and that's not enough" (which is hogwash), to the more recent excuse I just got last week, which was the SM didn't think using the Patrol method, at least on the campouts (operating with an ADULT PATROL where the ADULTS lead by EXAMPLE), was feasible - because he didn't think the boys would be able to have a nutritious meal in a decent amount of time if left on their own to handle it. (YIKES)

Regardless, this post wasn't about who's better to talk about the WB experience or the usefulness of the course, it's more about my being baffled that our unit can have so many WB beaders and then come up with dumb excuses about why our Troop shouldn't have to actually BEHAVE like a Troop and how we are exempt from every ideal of Scouting and all its methods simply because it's adult direct contact leaders won't get their heads out of their rears and effectively help our boys to LEARN to be boy-led, boy-run. Essentially what the SM and other direct contact leaders seem to prefer our Troop be managed like is a huge "Family Camping Program" which personally disgusts me in a manner that is beyond my abilities to express.

Because of this, I have to believe they took NOTHING, if even a little, from their Wood Badge experience or apprently their SM training!! And I don't understand how folks like that can live with their performance as adult leaders in a Troop! I didn't expect those that are guilty of this were going to step up here on this message forum and defend their positions. I realize those of us who are here are not generally leaders of this variety.

This message board just usually seems to be a safe place for me to vent and get advice on how to TOLERATE this kind of crap, and how to hopefully try and change it. My husband gets pretty tired of listening to it. (As all men tire of listening to their wives complain) LOL

Yeah nld, that's what I was thinking too. I don't think the BSA is prepared to lose that $10 per person at registration time! So then in actuality "required" training, isn't REALLY required then is it?

Yeah nld, that's what I was thinking too. I don't think the BSA is prepared to lose that $10 per person at registration time! So then in actuality "required" training, isn't REALLY required then is it?

This is so annoying. I have seen where half the adults in a Troop are WB trained, and yet the Troop bites eggs major! What's the point of going to that level of training and then seemingly get nothing at all out of it, and not bothering to pass on what you learned to better the youth you work with? Is it just so you can have the beads dangling from your neck and sing your happy gilwell song? How can those of you who fall in this category of WB Beader live with yourselves as boy scout leaders?(This message has been edited by Joni4TA)

So, when you have this situation - "However, if you determine that the Scout did not actually meet the requirements and was signed off "just because," you send him off without advancing and then have a meeting with whomever signed off for work not done."

When you have the conversation with the SM who signed off the kid, and the guy's completely indifferent about cheapening the requirements by simply signing off - then what??

These requirements really bothered me. Especially the stuff about cyber bullying. In our cases cyber-bullying is irrelevant. We live in a very rural setting and I am going to say at least 60% of our members in the Troop don't even have internet or email at home. So these kids have only experienced the WWW at school, and there is generally no way for a youth to ever encounter a cyber-bully on a school computer.

I think every Troop should have an adult patrol. It's too bad our SM believes that this wouldn't work because he doesn't think the boys would be able to function without us adults in the mix.

When you have a SM who doesn't believe the boys are capable of operating in Patrols...... he thinks the boys need him instead to run the show. How do you convince a SM to leave the boys be and let them work it out?

thanks ninoniner!

Mothercub did get in touch with me and I made her a copy of the JLT DVD in exchange for a CSP!

I am talking about all the darn record-keeping and math involved trying to figure out whether or not a unit actually earned quality unit! That made my brain spin as math is not my friend! BSA Made the "new" award sound so innovative, new and special. It doesn't look any darn different to me except for the color black on the ONE PATCH - But regardless, which one of those patches is the right one? Or has the BSA lost so much continuity that we now have to have TWO quality unit patches to offer units a choice in their BSA arm fashion???

And no, I don't do anything just for a frickin patch, sheesh. I've been a scout leader for over a decade and don't have knots and stars plastered on my uniform. For me it's not high on the list of priorities when the boys are what's important.(This message has been edited by Joni4TA)

For those that said, "The SPL does not assign duty assignments the PL does" and "The PLs (not SPL, definitely not adults) decide who is responsible for cleaning, cooking, etc.", what if the PLs are not present on a campout.... say it's only 5 boys, so in effect there IS NO Patrol.... all you have is an SPL and some random kids from 2 different patrols?

Thanks!

I have seen 2 different kinds of patches out there... which one is which? Which one do you have?

Here's one - http://www.greattrailsbsa.org/images/cqua%202007.jpg

here's another - http://www.geocities.com/clayt1963/QualityUnit2007.gif

Looking at these, after all the extra monkey business all our units went through to figure out whether or not we earned quality unit, please tell me that second patch is not all our efforts are worth?

I bought my son a pair of switchbacks that he got on Christmas. He wore them 2 days later for the first time, to a Skating MB. He fell down in the pants, and they immediately got a hole that nearly resembled a burn in the fabric, just from falling down in a roller skating rink! I would say they are not made very well at all for that ridiculous price, and certainly don't wear them when you are going to be doing heavy duty "boy stuff."

He wore them again for a 20 mile, 3 day hike a week later. For the hike he said they were fine. But he didn't fall down in them again. Not very sturdy pants in my opinion!

Does your Troop operate in a Patrol method?

Do the adults have an "adult patrol" on the campout or are you just an extension of the boys' patrols? If your adults on the campouts do NOT operate as their own self-sufficient patrol, why not?

Do you have the boys do all the cooking/cleaning for your adults as well? If so, what do the adults do when the boys are cooking and cleaning?

How do the boys know when it's time to cook or clean? Do they utilize Patrol Duty Rosters? Or does the SPL have to stay on top of the boys he's assigned to the cooking/cleaning duty?

I am trying to see what others do.

Thanks!

"Kids can learn and have fun without continuous parental involvement." AMEN!

Something that has gotten the boys fired up about the upcoming "Thaw-o-ree" is that the O/Ais planning it, and they're going to get to make a monkey bridge and use semaphores! And they get to do old-school skill stuff with NO PARENTS hovering!

My son was really active in Scouting (summer camps included), but I feel he took his time to get to 1st class. It took him 15 months. It took him another 3 years to get to Star, and there he sits now for the last 7 or so months. As I said, he's taking his time at Scouting.

He says he doesn't care too much about the requirements, merit badges and ranks. He just really likes learning about the outdoors and enjoying the outdoor program. He likes when he gets elected to SPL because he feels like he has something to offer the Troop. He tries to make sure that our new Boys work on their rank up to First Class. But we aren't an Eagle Mill.

His father, the SM and ASM try to push him a little when we feel like he's ready to work on an Eagle required MB or two. Other than that, we let him enjoy his time as a Scout. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I guess a March crossover does seem early. But my son crossed over into Boy Scouts at the end of January. Try THAT for early! And still, he takes his time.(This message has been edited by Joni4TA)

I wonder how many SM's really answered this!

I am not a Scoutmaster. Not sure if I should even answer, but I can guarantee the parents of the Scouts in our Troop don't really have a clue what it takes to put on a good program! Our Committee appears pretty staffed on paper, but we're lucky if we can get even 3 of us to show up at our monthly Committee Meetings. (I came to the Troop in 2006. We didn't even HAVE committee meetings until mid-2007)

We have at least 4 ASM's on paper - we're lucky if we can get even 1 to show up on outings or at meetings.

There is FAR too many parents going on campouts... like this weekend - 4 adults, 5 boys. It's overkill!

No one seems to want to communicate needs. I do, but I am ignored. I am tired of being the one that always "knows what to do" or "knows what we need" - I have slowly had to step back. I am not the SM, I am a lowly committee member, therefor there's not much I can do except resign if I don't like the way things are going.

I know what the needs are - but I can't force other people to do things they aren't willing to.(This message has been edited by Joni4TA)

Our former UC was fired by our Unit. They were completely incompetent. Rather than 'help' our unit with issues, they contributed to many of the issues we did have and fanned the flames on hot topics to suit their needs! I don't believe there will ever be a UC out of the group (3 units) in our town that will be effective.

Those who were trained with the older courses like Basic Training and SM Fundamentals should be considered trained. My husband was trained in 1990 and he shows up as trained.

Right now our Brownie Troop is working on the "Her Story" Try-It, after just finishing the "Movers" Try-It. We just finished up our Cookie sales (thank God ) and the girls decided they would like to use their cookie profits to go to Seaworld or the local city Zoo. We probably made enough for the Zoo, so that's in the works. Also, the girls are in the process of planning their first Court of Awards for March 25.

Right now our Brownie Troop is working on the "Her Story" Try-It, after just finishing the "Movers" Try-It. We just finished up our Cookie sales (thank God ) and the girls decided they would like to use their cookie profits to go to Seaworld or the local city Zoo. We probably made enough for the Zoo, so that's in the works. Also, the girls are in the process of planning their first Court of Awards for March 25.