Joni4TA

Just curious on how other Scouters feel about a Troop that does nothing but constantly offer Merit Badges (especially Eagle Required) as the instructional part of a Troop Meeting?

I really hope for some great advice out there on a situation in our Troop.

We have a boy who is a Special Needs. He has a very dysfunctional family (ie; not very involved parents) and has anger problems and is ADHD. I believe he is supposed to be on medication but as the parents are usually uncooperative, we (Troop Leadership) are never sure if he's gotten his daily meds or what the deal is with him.

The same boy, the SM had to move out of one patrol because he was being picked on by the boys in the patrol. In essence, he is being bullied. Since he was moved to my son's patrol, the intra-patrol bullying has stopped but there are still boys in other patrols typically messing with this kid STILL!

He's no innocent. He does his share of antagonizing the other kids. Of course because he's not the epiphany of the prodigal son/scout and doesn't have perfeclty obedient and involved parents, other parents/committee members/former scoutmaster have tried to implement conditions on his attending meetings and/or campouts. One of those conditions was "NO PARENT - NO PARTICIPATION."

My husband is now the SM in this Troop and he said HOGWASH, he's going camping and I will be responsible for him. The boy had a wonderful campout and was fairly well-behaved. My husband, while an ASM was instrumental in getting the boy removed from the patrol where he was being treated unfairly. He's fared much better since then, in my son's patrol. My son was also given the responsibility of watching out for the boy, and not letting others pick at him.

My problem is, I have a set of 4 parents (2 ASMs and 2 Troop Committee members) that really have a hard-on for this special needs boy. It's their sons that have been doing the picking on the boy and they see their own children as infallible and believe it must be the special needs boy who is the ultimate problem. One of the mothers/committee members insisted she "didn't think it was her responsibility to watch other people's kids." In other words, this boy should be denied scouting unless there was always a parent present willing to sit on top of this kid. I basically told her that she needed some better training in dealing with Scouts with Disabilities.

Another mother claimed, "When he (the special needs boy) acts up, he needs to be removed and sat in a corner." While this time-out theory is broad, ("acting up" is too big of a window) what about when other kids "act up", such as her own son? Because one is special needs we need to drag the kid into a corner but when it's her son that acts up, we just turn a blind eye? Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that unfair and unequal treatment?

I offered to remove myself from the committee and become an ASM/Patrol Advisor for this boy's patrol, so that I would be responsible for him. That way neither one of these ladies needed to worry about the boy anymore. Seems to me both these ladies are adult leaders in the wrong organization if they are so adamant about not being responsible for youth other than their own. Am I wrong?

Is there guidelines on Special Needs boys and/or specific training that relates to dealing with them in regards to discipline/code of conduct, etc. set forth by the BSA? If so, where, if anyone knows, can I read this stuff?

And also, any suggestions on how to combat this?

EagleInKY,

I feel your pain. Our Troop (unfortunately) operates in much the same way. We have some great parents/involved Committee Members, however... they seem to be uneducated as to the performance of their support role in the Troop, to include our Committee Chair. For some time now the Committee has been operating some sort of 3rd Year Webelos program as opposed to a Scout Troop.

We recently had a SM turnover and the new SM is trying desperately to educate the entire Troop about what they are supposed to be doing, instill the Patrol Method and Boy-led troop. It's a struggle to say the least. I am the one person on the Committee that is constantly butting heads with my peers on why we can't use Troop meetings for merit badge sessions every week, why we don't break up a New Scout patrol and put older scouts in it, why we don't interfere with Patrol Leader elections, etc., etc. I find myself constantly educating others on the very basics of Scouting! It is frustrating!

Hang in there...

We have the same issue in the Troop we are affiliated with. My husband recently took over as SM and up until now the boys have only been "required" to wear Troop T-Shirts along with scout shorts, socks, belt, and a Troop hat (though mostly optional).

My husband believes as SM that he is doing a disservice to the boys by not enforcing the uniform regs. (Let me add this Troop is made up of military sons and parents, mostly officers and upper enlisted and we can ALL afford the uniforms).

What I am confused on is if all that you people have said is true... about the uniform not being "required" then why in the Boy Scout Handbook, pages 12-13 does it say, "Wear full uniform for all ceremonial and indoor activities, such as TROOP MEETINGS, courts of honor, and most other INDOOR functions." "For OUTDOOR activities, Scouts may wear troop or camp t-shirts with the Scout pants or shorts."

The Scoutmaster's Handbook page 9 talks about the Scouting uniform in a less regulatory fashion- as a method of Scouting - in more of a motivating and be proud way.

Doesn't the Boy Scout Handbook scream of "REQUIREMENT" of a uniform or is it just my interpretation? By no means would anyone ever be excluded or denied Scouting due to lack of uniform. Our committee has already approved purchasing uniforms for boys that can't afford it (which is never the case in this troop, believe me). Somehow, the former Scoutmaster believed the wearing of a uniform was a PLC decision. How so? Reading the Scout Handbook, it's very clearly not a PLC decision.

Thoughts?

(cont'd) Chief Solano next year.

Thank you!

Why my post is cut off and limited as to space I do not know!!! That is ANNOYING though!

And I tried to edit it twice... both times the length of the post (In Scouting Around the World forum) was cut short. What gives? Anyone know?

My son and I were spending a little time in California... we are Scouter and Scout from Great Okinawa District, Far East Council. I read the Cubbies and Boy Scouts were marching in a 4th of July parade in downtown Fairfield so we packed our Scout Class A's and bombed their spot in the parade. I never felt more welcome as an "outsider" in any other District's event. Which is a good thing. My husband and I will be part of(This message has been edited by Joni4TA)

I find that too.. I am in Okinawa, and we are FEC.. and many unit leaders are "anti-council" because they feel.. well... plainly disconnected. I guess there are pros and cons in any council/district!

Nice to see you all again. My mother passed away and I had to go back to the USA to handle some legal affairs.

A MB Counselor has to put an application into the District to be a MB Counselor and those names are kept on file there. Usually the District Advancement Chair can easily print off a copy of that list for a Troop to have on hand for a boy's reference. I happen to have a copy for our District because I am on the Dist. staff and I asked but I doubt there would be a problem if a SM or CC asked for one either.

Well there is only one comment that comes to mind about all this...

Keep your friends close...

Keep your enemies closer...

Scott, you are awesome!

People may not always say it but THANK YOU from all of us in the Scouting world!

:-)

Pinewood Derby software is a wonderful idea!

I just realized what a DORK I am for saying my husband is about to "collect" an award.. haha.. I meant RECEIVE!

Anyway, I have emailed every cotton-pickin email address I could find on that Distrcit's website- I get nuthin'! :-(

I am wondering if the website is just really old and in desperate need of an update or if we really have such busy Scouters out there in New England. Either way, I am getting no answer from Great Trails in Dalton, MA!

I would call, but a call from Japan to Mass might prove slightly difficult (time change and international date line) but perhaps that is the best way!

Thanks guys!

BW:

I figured that was the misconception, about the long sleeve shirt. I know a boy is allowed to wear UP TO 6 MBs on a long sleeve. But nowhere did anything say anything about a minimum MB requirement. I asked my husband and he just shrugged. Even our District Commissioner and our Senior DE said they had never heard of it...

Funny thing is, my son has EARNED 6 MBs but he's only received 5 so he already has sewn 5 MBs on his sash. I am going to tell him to wear the sucker next time. He didn't want to wear it to his BOR last night because he was afraid he would get docked or told he was in the wrong (First BOR) No amount of Mom and Dad trying to convince him was going to help there!

Well thanks, I was pretty sure I was right about that, just wanted to run it by y'all to see if there was something I was missing somewhere.

I have been all through insignia books, and the Boy Scout Handbook and I see nothing that indicates this. My son says an APL told him...

Any ideas?

By the way Gidget, so far I think you are making a WONDERFUL Council Cub Scout Day Camp Chair!!! I do thank you for the advice.

I didn't mean to steal thunder with my whining about my situation. Consider it a dry test-run for a Day Camp issue I hope you never have show up on your desk or on your phone!

Thank you Gidget and dsteele. I honestly believe I can work with this person and I hope she proves me right. I do really appreciate her tenure, experience as a Scouter, and her determination to have a great Day Camp. I just hope she shows similar qualities concerning working with others and will start backing off a little without me having to push her.

What makes it even worse is she is the Leader of my daughter's Senior Girl Scout Troop AND I am the Troop Cookie Mom this year. So I really have to work with her as tactfully as possible. I don't want any negativity to spill over into my daughter's lap or affect my cookie mom job!

She really was angry that District hadn't nominated her over me for Camp Director though. It showed, she was snapping at people and then assumed a position that just didn't exist. It's almost like delusions of grandeur or something.

I will keep you "posted" :-)

I, too was baffled when she told someone else she was the Camp Commissioner.... the Senior DE and I both looked at each other with eyebrows up. I asked him if he ever heard of that.. he said "NO" so I did some resarch...

Camp Program and Property Management, Publication 20-920A, 2002, Managing the Council Outdoor Program, Page 1(dash)26..... there's the position!

In the flow of things, here's the hierarchy tree:

Camp Director

Camp Health Officer

Program Director

Program Staff

Camp Commissioner

Ecology/Conservation Director

Shooting Sports Director

Marksmanship Range Officer

Archery

Aquatics Staff

Camp Chaplains

Program Aides....

blah blah blah... there are several more positions before those staff paragraphs end.

However, the next paragraph clearly states, "There are no fixed rules for determining the number of staff members needed because of the varying conditions in camps." BINGO! And that's what I keep saying... I wasn't going to use the Commissioner position.

I liked louie6000's idea about showing the Webelos the ropes on rank and Troop structure. I have been on Troop committee's almost a year and I am still trying to figure them all out.

I also like the lashing/knot suggestions.

One more that may/may not be good is First Aid. No matter what rank a Scout is, they can always use some better first aid skills!

Gidget, your response is right on target. I was already eyeing those "ready-made" job descriptions in the Camp Admin. Book and told my husband I needed to create an organizational flow chart as well as a little type-up Job Description handout. I don't want to have issues with this person but I know it's going to happen anyway. I have already been warned by our District Camping Director and our Senior DE. They have both had more than a few years experience working with her.

The person I forsee having difficulty with calls herself the "Camp Commissioner" because, as she said, "The Book shows the position, and I had one at MY Day Camp last year." While I appreciate her wanting to volunteer, the "ready-made" qualifications for that position in the Camp Admin. Book are a far cry from the characteristic traits of the person... I have respectfully told her that I was not planning on using ALL the positions in "the book" because they're all not necessary. It was certainly easier than popping her bubble and telling her few people want to work with her and hardly anyone feels she can handle Public Relations well.

I would really like to draw on her experience with Day Camp. She has been a Scouter for many years and has a great array of ideas. However, I don't want to keep her on the Camp Committee just to see her continue to try and grab the reigns and run the Camp. I was nominated for the Camp Director position after we both put our names in the hat. She has shown on more than one occasion that she feels she is better suited for the job; ie. speaking up over me at the last District Meeting, trying to circumvent me by going to the Program Director to get her to agree on changing the staff t-shirt color, etc. It's all very petty, I know. I would prefer to just work together as a team and not be so hung up on who is in charge and stuff.

The complaints people had about the Day Camp she was the Camp Director for;

1) She enlisted volunteers and then told them all exactly how to run their stations.

**I would prefer to surround myself with competent volunteers and allow them to put their best foot forward, run their own stations, yet give me a heads-up on what they're doing- with me having the fial approval.

2) When telling people what to do, she came off bossy and uncooperative.

**This is a no-brainer, you catch more bees with honey... la la la

3) She turned Scouts away who showed up at the last minute with registration in hand because she was unable to fit them into her schedule rotation.

**While I wasn't there to see the rotation, I can't imagine turning away wide-eyes Scouts from a Day Camp simply because I wasn't smart enough to think ahead and develop a rotation that would allow last minute check-ins like that. Why should the boy be penalized?

Well, we'll see. I really hope things will not be too unbearable. I have to remember this is for the boys. I know she has the tendency for running things from a chair and a using a loud voice. I am more of a hands-on person. I like to be involved but not to the extent that I feel I need to constantly assert my dominance and remind people of my position of being in charge.

2 years as a Girl Scout youth

6 months as a Girl Scout Leader

6 years as a Cub Leader

6 years as a Boy Scout "Mom"

2 years as a Boy Scout Leader

1 year as a District BSA Committee Member

I was Day Camp Director for a very small Cub Camp last year. This year, District felt like I would be a good candidate for a larger combined All-District Day Camp so I am directing a Camp again. This time I finally get to go to Council's Camp School in January and I also have last year's book for the course on Day Camp Admin. #13-626A. I am obviously still learning the ropes with all this.

The one thing I have learned that seems the most helpful is to keep an open mind and definitely what dsteele said, try not to micro-manage too heavily. I get that micro-manage tendency coming from the opposite end. District feels I am doing a good job and lets me run with it. I appreciate that. They also know if I need help, I am going to come directly to them and I will be open to suggestions but that I will ultimately make my own choices. I think it's important to allow intiative and foster creativity.

This year I have someone on my Camp Committee who has created a position for themselves (one that I did not intend to have in the Day Camp at all) and wants to do all the speaking up about things, including items that are my responsibility as Camp Director. This person even wants to suprceed the Program Director so they are not dealing with the fact that they aren't running things very well at all. This person also apparently has run a few Day Camps in the past several years but has consistently been difficult when it comes to working with other people/Scouters. That's why District nominated me after working with me last year. I suppose I am better suited for public relations and compromise? Either way I know it's going to be hard dealing with this person- in essence she continually tries to circumvent me and the Program Director and force me into agreeing to things I was never even a part of. My Program Director is easily swayed by her... I am not!

I think I should preface by saying the Venture Crew itself has not even been formed yet. I am an MC for the Trop. We have a few Eagle Scouts in our Troop, one of whom is the SM's son and is about to turn 18. He and some of the others in his Patrol are interested in either working a Venture Patrol within the Troop with the 18yr old as the Leader or taking up the responsibility of a new unit altogether and forming a Crew.

They have the makings of a Venture Patrol right now, until the boy turns 18. They would like to get with the local Senior Girl Scout Troop and do some hiking, camping, backpacking, etc. The volunteer Crew Advisor, who also serves on our Troop Committee has apparently had a bad experience in the past with Venture Crews that had girls and has basically boycotted the idea of having girls participate. The boys prefer otherwise. I've told the boys that they need to work it out with the Advisor. Either respectfully ask the Advisor to reconsider his position or politely inform him that we are Boy-led and if he can't agree to what they want, perhaps he should step down. I think he'll only be a hindrance to the Crew if he's against something so strongly that the BSA clearly allows and facilitates.

The need for a female leader would be met on any overnighters. The 18yr old's mother is a Troop Committee Member as well as myself. Also, the Senior Girl Scout Troop's Co-Advisor has two boys in our Troop (You know how it is, small Scouting world) Anyway I have not gotten too deeply involved in the politics on this issue, just thought I would pose the questions on this forum to gain a deeper understanding of those both for and against young ladies in the Venture Crews.

Thanks All!

I totally understand about the difficulties facing recruitment of Scouts in a Military environment! My husband is an E-9 in the Marine Corps and has been a Scouter since my oldest Step-Son was a Wolf Cub... he's now a 22yr old Eagle Scout. I didn't become a legitimately registered Scouter until our youngest son was a Wolf and he's now a Tenderfoot working towards Second Class.

So believe me when I say I know Scouting can be rough in the Military. I know here on this lovely tropical paradise I live in (Okinawa, Japan) we had a Cub Pack become absorbed by another Cub Pack about 3-4 years ago and the new Pack took over any equipment, monies, debts, etc. However, now that I think about it, the CO agreed that the equipment should stay with the boys, hence the transfer of equipment.

In your situation, if the CO doesn't care, I would do the same thing. I also understand your DE probably wanting to revive the Troop but it's better to be proactive than reactive. At the risk of losing the remaining Scouts altogether, perhaps the reality is to have the neraby Troop absorb these boys and possibly work at trying to revive the Troop at some later time.

GOOD LUCK!

I know this is a bummer to understand. The accountant in me screams for accuracy... and cringes every month when I have to read "The Numbers" off to the District Committee. (I am the District Membership Chair) I have said time and time again that the numbers we recharter with are only accurate for about a month or two... and then they are mainly overinflated after that.

When we add a member, we can record the growth but when we lose a member, the number of registered youth stays the same because, as dsteele said, the units have already paid for their registration.

In my District's case, we get the numbers of our Total Available Youth from the total number of students in our School District and divide that in half. This gives us the approximate number of boys available for Scouting. Then we take the approximate number of boys and figure 20-25% of that number to be our youth membership goal.

Example:

School District has 1000 students

Half of those are girls

Divide 1000/2 = 500

25% of 500 boys = 125 boys (THIS IS OUR MEMBERSHIP GOAL)

Good Question BW! I had not thought to find out. I will have to find out who the CO is and go from there I suppose. I was hoping for some advice on trying to convince the Advisor that "GIRLS" don't really have any COOTIES! :-)