johndaigler

Cherished traditions are terribly difficult to grow away from. But Pack traditions only take a year or two to make or break - if the Committee and Leaders are dedicated to the change.

I'd do what I could to offer some new suggestions -- this one is a bit over the top for me >> potentially minimizing the value of the announcements, and the poor person who gets serenaded. I'm guessing your boys don't need to sing this song when they're in school and announcements are made (or else, your Unit is doing a larger disservice than people realize!)

How about a new tradition of a new announcement song each month -- there are plenty to go around and they are learned almost instantaneously.

Is this tradition "purposeful"? - If not, what's the argument for keeping it? Sometimes it comes down to choosing "Purpose" or "Fun" -- I suggest you choose Purpose, and make it fun or plan your fun elsewhere.

jd

JillKB's "Blue & Gold Ceremony Question" thread has me thinking... (dangerous, I know, but bear with me>>>>

It seems:

> Blue and Gold's have (almost unanimously) become rank awarding ceremonies

> For W2's they've also become AOL and Crossover ceremonies

...

Isn't the traditional "value" of the BnG as a celebration of Cubs and their activities, successes, efforts, etc. of the previous year?

Aren't we doing a disservice to everyone involved (and the Program, itself) by forcing mandatory rank completion as a group by an arbitrary date? {Since many programs minimize Program during Summer -- then the"work" season is really Sept. - Feb.}

Don't we lessen the value of each ceremony: Tiger badge, Wolf badge, Bear badge, Webelos badge, AOL, Crossover, etc. by cramming them all into a Sunday afternoon in February? {I assume Bobcat badge ceremonies are more usually conducted at other times - though often in the same mass production style...}

Don't we make Fall/Winter crazy-busy in order to meet the BnG deadline, and minimize the Spring portion of our Program year as "optional"?

Does it HAVE to be this way?

...

Could BnGs and the entire Program year of Cub Scouts be improved by:

>working with boys to achieve at their own pace

>celebrating boys individually, or as small groups, as they Achieve

>Achievement-valuing the entire 12 month year rather than 1/2 of it for Achievement and 1/2 of it for Electives {or 1/2, 1/4 and 1/4 Summer vacation}

I'm not being critical of people following this route - just trying to understand, and perhaps improve upon the path (for myself - I'm sure there are many Packs quite comfortable with this as is).

???

jd

(This message has been edited by johndaigler)(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Just to take this TOOOOOOO far down the Minerva path . . .

Since "You shall have no other gods before me." (RSV 1952), then placing the Commandments alongside these other statues either: disrespects Commandment#1 and all of its followers; or denies these personas their godhood, effectively discriminating against followers of these gods. . .

Assuming the "offical answer" is to deny Minerva - what's to stop the govt. from next denying . . .? ? ? ?

jd

Very True, FScouter!

Sometimes I wonder if a team with a direction, even if it's the wrong direction, is better than a leader heading in one direction and the team heading in the other...

I know the argument ... "NO Leader is better than a Bad Leader". Philososphically, I get that, and agree. But in a practical sense, since no Scouter is all bad, then perhaps more good comes from the "misdirected" team, than a team that won't follow a "good" leader . . . / ? ? ? ?

What do ya think?

jd

Thank you VERY much!

John

Amen.

jd

And, WELCOME to the campfire!!!!

Hi, mjengels,

Good answer ScoutNut. I was about to take 6 extra paragraphs to say the same thing - Thank you for saving me from myself!

The only thing I'd add is that Cubs can get credit for doing an elective activity more than once - as long as they show growth and increased challenge - and,of course, meet the standard of "Do Your Best".

jd

Absolutely!

G2SS lists winter camping as age-appropriate for Boy Scouts and older. I like the idea of using this pothole to build a better bridge, but your W2's aren't supposed to have winter camping experiences. The Troop leaders should know that and plan/train accordingly.

But, I guess, if we're going to cross them over during the winter, and we live north of the Mason-Dixon Line, we probably need to help with the first few preparatory steps for our boys.

jd

Lisabob, I sympathize. And thanks for the heads up - you've given me a year to prepare for this pothole.

But isn't this is a Troop issue, more than a W2 issue? It's not that your W2's need to be better prepared to join the troop, their new Troop needs to be more alert to the situation, and more careful with its NSP.

Still, maybe a good late-fall bridging activity WOULD be an equipment demonstration(I'd require parents).

Camping/Hiking equipment make great Christmas presents!

jd

BTW, I whole-heartedly agree with your feelings about, "after the first time, the boys will figure out pretty quickly what they need for winter camping."!!!! A sink or swim attitude toward winter camping is dangerous and worth getting angry!

It seems like you're looking for some fast cash. The problem is, that generally comes from one-time, labor intensive efforts. Go ahead and use the great ideas above, but don't forget to think long term. You don't want to be writing this thread again in Jan. '07!

Look for ideas that can become self-fulfilling, or atleast Pack traditions. An ethnic dinner that reflects your neighborhood? An ecumenical dinner that brings together community leaders? An event that funds your Pack and FOS? Etc., etc. (and remember to check fundraising regs. - do it well, but do it right.)

Consider schoolpop.com. It most certainly is not a quick answer - though they do have an "E-bayish garage sale" function. The benefits are long-term, self-renewing, labor-free CASH.

We're all not only Leaders of the present Pack but "fore-fathers" of a future Pack -- Cubs 10 years from now are impacted by the choices we make today. Think of yourself as a Steward. The Pack's future is just as much your responsiblity as the Pack's present.

jd

dan,

I whole-heartedly endorse a thread where you and Kudu exchange ideas!!!

If I were feeling snarky, I'd suggest that's what I've been talking about for days, but it's been such fun having you and Kudu turn your blunt instruments on me rather than each other, that I'm sure I'll miss this thread's continuance.

I look forward to learning from both of you.

jd

Kudu,

The Scouter.Com Moderator Team should take a good long hard look at their inability to act decisively.

"Decisively" is not a synonym for "Loudly", "publicly" or "rudely".

And, yes, you should "let it (others' comments) go" - the website's dueling pistols are at the cleaners.

"If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

. . ."

jd

Great ideas -- the thread one sounds like an awesome finished product - but a lot of work.

You might have the Webelos I Den host an evening event where the WebII's and their parents do the project together. The 4th graders can act as hosts, gophers, etc., and serve pizza and drinks. Meanwhile the 5th graders and their parents can share all the memories those arrows represent.

Since each boy's arrow is potentially different, use thin (1/4") painters tape to pre mark the areas to be painted. I'd also give each WebII family a colored-in black-line drawing as a guide to what their arrow should look like finished.

If you're painting, take the time to pre-build simple holders for the arrows so they can be painted without waiting for each stripe to dry, and so they won't be handled too much. Put a color key on the back of the plaques as a future memory aid.

Have fun!

jd

Apparently I should go back to my old vertically-striped referee shirt! It seems this new one with the concentric circles is sending the wrong message!

jd

The "Dusty Boot" sounds like a great Unit award, but I'd suggest having some sort of token for each of the boys in that unit. The key I think is to bring the awards down past the Unit Leaders - directly to the boys. Present the Rusty Boot at a District/Council Dinner, but then be sure to get a Scouter down to that Unit's next Troop Meeting and present a cache of mini-prizes to the Scouts.

How about "Rubber Ducky" or "Golden Poncho" Award? Sort of a goof prize for the unit that spends the most days out in the rain. Bring a little humor to the crowd that's felt snakebit by bad weather all year. Again a token for each boy would really work here. Each boy could get a yellow poncho, etc. . . .

"Cracked Paddle" for the unit that does the most boat/canoe camping or does the most white water that year.

"Camping Critters" award for the Cub Unit that logs the most time out of doors.

Beyond Afoot/Afloat are there other 50 miler awards? Cycling? Maybe a Cub 50 miler for Units that do that much in a year?

jd

Actually I think some reg. police would remind you that the BBgun/Archery targets are not supposed to be animate objects -- deer, people, etc. I'm not sure where Zurg or Droids would fit . . .

But seeing as how I'm definitely NOT one of those dastardly reg. sherrifs, I'll get on with what I wanted to offer...

Our Day Camp is fun and well attended. We're lucky with a great site that includes a fishing hole and plenty of green space for all the activities, including a swim day at a nearby waterin' hole. Last year the theme was Day Camp Knights and themed to knights in shining armor, etc. -- the catapults were the big hit, especially the trebuchet that launched water bottles >100 yds!. The boys used table top sized mangolins to launch wooden balls at painted targets of dragons and castles, etc. -- note that the target regs are not as strict for siege machines!!! This coming year the theme is "Pirates" and somehow connected to the release of "Pirates of the Caribbean 2".

Each year the boys get a couple hours each of BB Guns, Archery, slingshots and fishing. There's one knife safety/whittling class - almost enough to earn Whittlin Chip and Bear Achievement. Several classes on nature skills - tracking, LNT, plant/animal identification, poison/healing plants, etc. A trip or two to the ropes course - monkey bridge, swinging log bridge, lashed climbing structures, etc. We sprinkle in some sports and a horizontal climbing wall. And lastly there are some themed arts and crafts. Last year the boys made knightly helmets out of fried chicken buckets, and silk screened tunics with their crests and colors. I'm guessing we'll see some eye patches this year!

I'd suggest sticking with the core of sure fire winners - BB Guns, Archery, Fishing and Swimming if they're available, and a good ropes adventure course. After that include some sports and crafts that everyone can succeed at and enjoy. The sprinkle in some serious learning -- first aid, safety, nature, LNT, etc. Just don't keep them sitting too long - ever.

We end the week with an optional (read that "costs extra"!) family BBQ and a staff led campfire program.

This costs each scout $100 and they get a patch and t-shirt. Cubs bring their own lunches and Packs supply 2 deep leadership, though leaders don't have to lead classes or activities.

We don't seem to sweat the amount of Achievements we meet or belt loops we earn. The camp director supplies a list of completed requirements to each unit at the end of the week. I might wish that we focus a bit more on Achievements, but it's hard to argue with all the smiling faces!

jd

kudu, you seem so well informed about the pre-1970 program, but your posts don't show the same content with regards to the present version. I understand your appreciation for the program with which I grew up, but if you're going to offer it up as better than things like NYLT and JLT, don't you need to be better informed?

It seems like discussing program with you is talking apples and oranges. Where will we ever get - how will we ever accomplish anything if you bait the new program faithful and the new program defenders bait you. Sure, they need to tell you how good this version of the program is, but don't you have a responsibility to know more about it before you disparage it as less than what it used to be?

By the time you get to, "Rkfrance's situation can be solved within the BSA structure by 1) Fixing the problems at the Troop across the street, or 2) Finding another Troop, or 3) Starting a new Troop. . . .", you're just ranting. This is way oversimplified and just unfair. It appears you were just sandbagging for the opportunity to advertise other programs. This last post doesn't seemed aimed at helping rkfrance, as much as giving stomache ulcers to a few people who disagree with you.

I would hate to conclude that your goal is merely to create opportunities to make digs at the present org and program -- that would certainly minimize the credibility and value I assign to your posted ideas. As much as others need to refrain from taking shots at you and focus on your ideas -- you ought to take some of the venom out as well.

my $0.02

jd

WELCOME!!!!

Take off one or two of those several hats you're wearin' and rest your weary bones. Coffee?

jd

Dan, read Kudu's response. It's fairly obvious that he felt attacked personally. Some of your (and others') comments focused on him rather than on the ideas he presented. I don't want this thread to be about me, or you, or Kudu. I merely suggested that we could leave out the personal judgements (comments about another Scouter's ability to follow the Scout Law, or labeling them as BSA-bashers) and focus on the topic and ideas/suggestions that might help Scouters who find themselves in "lost" units.

Please don't take my comments as representative of the entire Moderator team. Similarly, everyone should realize they can't take Kudu's ideas as representative of official BSA policy -- nor can they take johndaigler's, dan's, FScouter's, OGE's, Eamonn's, Terry's or anyone else who posts here. We all contribute what we can - what we are. We are different, so we offer different ideas -- none of us offers the whole package. All I've suggested here in this thread is that if my son were "attacked" at a Scout meeting and there was no Unit follow up, I'd be looking to join or make a new Unit. After that, I suggested we focus on ideas to help rkfrance, and others who belong to "lost" units, without focusing on the people posting alternative ideas.

jd

For most of us, LNT is about teaching the boys to be careful and respectful of our environment. LNT is every bit as important as they walk down their school's hallways as it is when they play in the park or participate in an outdoor Scout adventure.

It's less about how careful we are, and more about what we instill in the boys. If they catch us arguing (badly) like this, they may learn to be careful and respectful in the out of doors, but not with others. If we teach dutiful respect for squirrel ergonomics but demonstrate mistreatment of our peers, I think we're missing the point -- but the boys never miss the point. They learn exactly what we teach.

jd

No, not at all. I was just trying to lessen the rhetoric a bit. Kudu offered ideas, go ahead and offer other (better) ideas! Let's just stay away from comments that are less about the posted ideas and more about the person doing the posting.

Dan, you talked about your Unit not following the program %100. My point is that if we're starting with a truly "lost" unit, and you already agree that most units aren't perfect, then why would we be so hostile to Kudu's suggestions. If a "lost" Unit tried Kudu's ideas, wouldn't they be closer to today's program than they are right now? His suggestions might never bring this struggling unit completely into %100 compliance, but they'd be a lot closer. I didn't read anything in this post from Kudu that suggests he'd take the Unit back to a previous version of the program. He was just offering suggestions for pulling them toward some version of success -- I don't see any of this as anti-BSA. As the Program changes over the years it doesn't mean that last year's version is horrific or wrongly directed -- just, we've found a new way to walk the path. Apparently, this Unit isn't using all the ideas and materials available to them to help teach and utilize the Program. It's possible a different suggestion might jumpstart them in the right direction.

I believe it's possible to work for changes and/or ideas we support from the inside of an organization. We don't have to accept the Program as it is without thinking of how it might be better. It doesn't make a Scouter a BSA basher to offer alternative thoughts or ideas -- I'm sure you know the phrase "loyal opposition". There are many ways to view the world and each will view the BSA Program differently - therefore, they'll implement the program differently. Remember, this is a terribly unsuccessful unit we're talking about-- anthing that helps them improve is a good idea!

jd

Please, let's put our own personal interpretations of Kudu's goals, opinions and historical postings aside. If we focus on the topic and his present posts, it's kind of hard to say he's too far off the mark. We're talking about improving a unit that's chaotically unsuccessful and/or starting a brand new unit. We can't argue that not too many of us follow the real program %100, then be argumentative when Kudu states the same things -- and his suggestions point toward growth towards the modern day program. It's not far fetched that his ideas will likely lead said unit toward better success -- AND closer following of the modern day program.

jd

The morning after you heard about your son being attacked.

jd

DanKroh,

I believe your NAA instructor can file the appropriate paperwork to be designated as an official BSA instructor and, with the appropriate permissions, deliver a "council/district sponsored" Archery beltloop/pin instructional program at the local range.

I believe it's the BB Gun beltloop/pin that need to take place at a BSA facility. I would think the on-site additional firepower of non-BSA ranges is the likely tripping stone with BB Gun (but not with Archery).

Check with your Council and have a copy of the regs with you.

jd

DenLeader10,

I read the requirement to be the part in the gold box.

The rest I see as examples, explanations and suggestions.

In this case, the requirement is completed in the Cub's home with an adult. A trip to the fire station is fun, interesting and a worthwhile learning experience -- but, IMHO, it doesn't help you meet the requirement, except that during the visit the fire fighters could talk about how the boys could help keep their homes safe (How the kids could be "firefightes" at home). Then when the boys complete WA9c, they're armed with more info.

jd