johndaigler

ne incautus futuri

"Screaming Irony" gives me a headache. I prefer my irony to "mockingly whisper".

jd

Merlyn, please ignore the posters playing "gotcha" and go back to Hunt for a minute. Read Hunt carefully and thoughtfully. I think you were a bit hasty - maybe falling into the "gotcha" game yourself - and Hunt deserves more thought and a more thoughtful answer.

jd

NO, and I'm disappointed that we see leaders make choices that force us to ask the question.

Concerned, someone should tell your SM that when boys take on positions of responsibility at a young age, it's great experience for the more complicated positions they'll take on at an older age. Your SM acts like Eagle is a destination - an end point - rather than a milestone upon a much longer journey. He's also acting like he knows better than 95 years of Scouting. He needs to read the posters above.

jd

Austin, WELCOME!!

Sorry, I can't personally help, but our Council website does this and you can contact them.

Northeast Illinois Council -- neic.org

Webmaster: ahibnick@neic.org

good luck

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Thanks, rpushies, good to hear. You probably didn't need to make it confrontational, though - lessens it a bit.

jd

Thanks, Trail Pounder!

Congratulate your friend for us, and his son!!

jd

jk,

Please don't be careless or glib about the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.

It seems oversimplified that the gentleman was fired for being in the same place as homosexuals. Doesn't sound like the best vacation spot for a Scout executive, but I would hope his choice of vacations is not the reason he was fired. I don't see any way to obtain enough information about this to make a legitimate judgement about the choices made by Mssrs. St. Jean, Smith, Williams, or any other BSAer.

So, jk, I guess the questions remain - What should we do with this version of the story? What's your purpose or point? Are you looking for some kind of response?

jd

I like BALOO for DLs for the reasons I said before, but I agree there are parts of BALOO that might not readily apply to their Den focused roles.

And I agree, BW, we make DLs do too much - and they're often wearing more than the DL hat anyway - which is definitely too much!

Unfortunately, in my council/district RoundTables do not fill the skill set that BALOO fills. Our Council does a "Training Day" (similar to Pow Wow) annually, but most BALOO taught skills are not part of that day. Additionally, BALOO is offered several times a year, making it more accessible.

I get what BW is saying, but I disagree that BALOO is a good place to draw the training line for job descriptions. I think BALOO offers skills and knowledge readily usable by just about every adult leader in a Pack.

jd

As usual great thoughts from all of you.

Our thoughts and prayers go out to all the families impacted by Katrina.

Is there a national structure use by BSA to help Units rebuild after such devastation. So much has been lost by everyone; but just focusing on Scouts for a minute, is there an organized method of helping those units replace equipment, handbooks, uniforms, etc.??

I'm sure we can all do things individually and locally but a strong nationwide program might simplify and improve our efforts.

And believe me, I understand these people have lost much more than Scout shirts, but Scouting is such a positive for many young boys that getting Units back up and running (and therefore able to help others) will have a positive impact on all those communities.

jd

Knowing that I'm stepping onto terribly thin ice, BW, I disagree with your comment that BALOO has nothing to do with being a DL.

BALOO training includes (amongst other topics): an Outdoor Flag Ceremony, outdoor cooking, scouting equipment, campfires, G2SS, Scout's Own, themed hikes, large group games, and first aid. All of these areas are (can be) part of a quality Den program and are the focus of many Achievements and Electives.

Perhaps the planning and evaluation and paperwork considerations won't be tops on the DL's memories of a day spent BALOOing, but there IS much to be gained and used by a DL who attends BALOO.

And again, BALOO is fun in a practical usable manner that motivates Scouters better than other training courses.

Sure, Unit Leaders should be focused on BALOO, but I would GUESS that many units retain a Den focus for at least part of each Pack overnighter. If so, better trained DLs make for better campouts. Additionaly, I BELIEVE Cubs view themselves more strongly tied to the Den than the Pack. If that's true, then the DL is exactly the person who should have BALOO because they are most likely the person who will be relating BALOO skills to the boys.

jd

Political opinions aside, it's fairly irrelevant whether the cause is BSA policy change, Federal govt. policy change, or Court mandated policy change. As you trot off to the VFW and/or American Legion, pause to take a longer look at these forums. Do a search concerning COs. I believe there are several threads that discuss what the COs and their CORs should and could do for a Unit. As much as the VFW is a no-brainer, there is no reason not to do a little research and investigation. As important as the CO is, IMHO, the COR can make or break the potential value of the CO. Why not do a little comparison shopping?

For additional information there is a Training course and syllabus for "Training the Chartered Organization Representative". Even if you don't use this before you make new CO decisions, you should definitely point it out to the Pack's new CO/COR.

jd

>>If the local Park District is publicly funded in as direct a manner as the school district, it MAY also have difficulty re-Chartering. Best to know sooner rather than later.

Good Luck with both units!

I understand "do your own job well", but wouldn't BALOO likely help briantshore be a better DL?? He's a Bear DL for another 9 months, and though he'll eventually need OLSWL, he doesn't yet. He's interested - actually from the read of it, he's excited -- I'd hesitate to imply that he Shouldn't take BALOO.

We try to convince all Leaders, and even non-Leader parents, to take BALOO so they can feel more comfortable on overnighters.

It's also, like I said, a FUN day of Scout training so it's a good motivational tool to encourage volunteerism while being a good way to assess those potential volunteers' practical skills and energies.

jd

BALOO training is still useful because the Pack benefits. Even though you may be doing some Den camping with your Webelos, you should still participate in the pack Overnighters, as well.

As jens3sons suggested, grab a buddy and go to both. (ssshhhhh --- they're the fun training courses, anyway!!)

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

In my Council, Changing positions only requires a 1/2 hour "update" to retain your training status. I think, but cannot confirm that this is SOP elsewhere, as well.

Though, Jerry is right that Wolf DL to Bear DL is not considered a position change, I encourage our (now Bear) DLs to sit down with me (Pack Trainer) and/or last year's Bear DLs to talk about the differences and subtle changes between second graders and third graders, the somewhat minor changes in the Advancement process and the types of activities to plan.

Also, Briantshore, I didn't see any mention of YPT. IMHO, That's the most important of the basic 4.

jd

Our Pack leaves it up to the DLs. During the school year, my Bear Den meets every week, except the week of our Pack Meeting. In reality, though, there are holidays, school vacations, etc. - so a truer picture for my Den is twice a month plus a Den activity/trip. Then, of course, there's the Pack Meeting and usually a Pack event/trip.

During the summer, it is nearly impossible to get my boys in one place at one time, so I have one Den Meeting a month, but double the length. It's a great opportunity to do some of those multi-step projects/skills that are too complicated to fit into an afterschool meeting - or are perfect for the summer outdoors. We still try to do a Den trip.

jd

In the darkness, even a small light shines brightly.

Welcome buddy-3!! What have you tried so far??

jd

Scouting Round-Up?? Go with the whole Old West thing. Chaps for your little chaps! Hand out licorice ropes stapled with registration contact information. Or bullseyes, or cowtales . . .

Or tin stars (cardboard cutouts wrapped in foil).

The most important thing (besides having fun) might be to help the boys realize they're responsible for PR - they have to look and behave well, etc. The whole town will be checking them out.

Can you get a horse to tie to the wagon?

jd

HAVE FUN!!!!!

Don't forget to follow the G2SS rules:

Section IX: Parade Floats and Hayrides

The BSA rule prohibiting the transportation of passengers in the backs of trucks or on trailers may be tempered for parade floats or hayrides, provided that the following points are strcitly followed to prevent injuries:

1. Transportation to and from the parade or hayride site is not allowed on the truck or trailer.

2. Those persons riding, whether seated or standing, must be able to hold on to something stationary.

3. Legs should not dangle over the side.

4. Flashing lights must illuminate a vehicle used for a hayride after dark, or the vehicle must be followed by a vehicle with flashing lights.

jd

Wow, I'm away from CNN for a simple Cub overnighter and katrina goes from a 1 to a 5?!?!?! Aaron Brown just referred to Katrina as "potentially the worst storm of our lifetime". Yikes!!

Zippie, luck to you and yours. We're praying for everyone there.

jd

BW,

Backpacker's resume is irrelevant. It doesn't give perspective - it might exemplify exactly what Zahnada posted.

It's OK with most of us that you see the world your way, but some people above have tried to make the point that you do not grant the same courtesy to others. You see some others as bullies and some others see you as a bully.

Let's get away from all that and talk about the ideas we post - not the quality, experience, training or knowledge of the poster.

Un-Scoutlike is when others see it as un-scoutlike. You don't get to judge yourself with this one - at least not wholly. Sure, many of us our capable of putting up posts that we regret the next day -- but, un-scoutlike is when others regret that we put up that post.

jd

I assume BW is on target with his explanation of the SM's responsibilities and Advancement process for Scouts. Even if I was a Boy Scouter rather than a Cub Scouter, I would trust BW's description of how the SM could have differently directed the set of events.

But, I think SST3rd's and BW's conversation is a good example showing that, given the right (wrong) set of circumstances, sails and anchors can change (be changed) - or at least be viewed differently by the other Unit leaders.

Except in rare cases, I think most Scouting Volunteers are worth working with in order to make them and the Unit better. Let's not be too quick to judge people, and Unit's, to be anchors and worthy of abandonment.

jd

jk,

Respectfully, . . . IMHO, . . . I believe it would benefit all of us if you considered a few things (that I believe are true for many readers, . . . but I will only speak for myself) that I see:

You're preaching to choirs, for and against, but the vast majority of readers are open minded and fair readers - who strongly support Scouting.

If you point out a negative, then I would expect you to be the first one to offer a positive alternative.

Because your posts hit 85 different points, they are impossible to discuss, with facts or opinions. Responding posters head off in six directions trying to reply. We get nowhere but angry with each other.

I get that you are angry, and I'll bet somewhere in those posts you have a question you'd like answered, or a suggestion you'd like the crowd to consider. Neither of those things are easily found in your posts - just the anger.

If you want to discuss facts, then please offer your own, be sure of them, and validate them.

Your posts are so long and rambling and negative that I now see your name and read, "yada, yada, yada".

Please believe me, I am not trying to shut you down - I'm just trying to get to the point where I can follow a thread that you've begun, without ending up angry at you, several other posters, and myself. You can help me by shortening and simplifying your posts. Maybe I'm just slow, but conversations are better if there's one topic and a bit of give and take respectfully shared.

I doubt this comes off as politely as I intend it, but I'm going blind with editing it. I hope you will take it in the constructive manner it is meant.

jd

Is there a local Labor Day Parade? Pehrpa yur Unit can march and use the PR methods above to let it be known that every 1st grader in the area can bring a parent and march with you. Who doesn't love a parade??

jd