johndaigler

P142D10,

WELCOME!!

I believe the intent is a council/district camp.

That being said (and given the fact that this represents 0.1 arrowheads), I would gladly accept another day camp experience as an acceptable fulfillment of the requirement.

Remember two things, the parent can sign off on this, so it might not even be your decision AND the standard is the Cub's best effort. If Mom and Dad will pay for VBS, but not Council Day Camp, I'm comfortable that the Cub is doing his best.

It might be an interesting discussion to see how the Cub who experiences both, compares two different Day Camp experiences, or how a Cub met certain Achievements or Electives by attending this "unofficial" Day Camp.

jd

Good points, ScoutNut! I wasn't paying enough attention to aviary ergonomics!!!!

jd

Hi, DenLeader10,

WELCOME!

The requirement I think you're referring to asks your boys to "Feed wild birds and tell which birds you fed." (WE13e) The birdbath isn't required - it's just one suggested way to complete the task. Though, to be honest, I'm not convinced this does the trick -- I guess if birds show up for your bird bath, the book accepts it, so I would also.

Have you already completed Wolf Achievement 5e? That would help you with WE13b, e and f, as well.

If the "birdbath" is your chosen method for fulfilling this requirement then here are a few ideas:

Birdbaths don't have to sit up on a pedestal. That just makes them more appealing to us - and I suppose keeps some ground critters away. However, think WA5 and using tools to build a stand pedestal. (I suggest predrilling any hole that a Wolf is going to try and screw or nail into!!)

A pie tin (or any plastic lid, or pot/pan lid, or plastic sheeting - think pool liner or kitchen garbage bag) set in a hollow with rocks to weigh down the edges will work fine.

Old plates and platters will serve and can have an antigue-y garden thing going for them. {Apparently, I've been watching WAY TOO MUCH HGTV!}

Weave a reed basket (WE10d) that fits around a plastic container.

Decorate your lids (WE12c and e).

Large slightly concave rocks will work and look natural enough to be set just about anywhere.

Try local nurseries and garden shops (and your Cubs' family's garages!) to see if they'll donate flower pot "reservoirs" or whatever those little dishes that catch extra water are called.

Have fun!!!!

jd

Hi fling1,

Webelos Scouts belong to Dens, not patrols. There's nothing in the current Webelos Leader literature - including the kid's Webelos Handbook - that uses "patrol" or "Patrol Leader". Your Cub Leader is still referred to as a Denner and, if you're lucky enough to have one, your BSA youth Leader is a Webelos Den Chief, and that's a Den emblem on their sleeve not a patol emblem.

I think your Roundtable presentation was just mistaken.

jd

Our thoughts and prayers continue for all of you.

jd

Congratulations! Enjoy!!

jd

Robin, WELCOME and good luck!!!

You've heard some great ideas already, but let me share a word of caution. You don't have to complete CubsRgr8's list by Dec 1!!! It's a superb list, but be sure to make this whole Scouting thing work for you - and your son. For example, "Mom" might work for you both. Take time to enjoy the journey - and be sure your son is enjoying it, as well. One of the potential pitfalls is worrying so much about the Cubbing experience of other people's children that your son's experience gets taken for granted. I suggest structuring as much as possible so that you can fill the "parent enjoying Scouting with their son" role just as often as you fill the WDL role.

And though he means well, don't pay any attention to EagleInKY!!! He's just plain wrong this time!

Be sure to read the Webelos Cub Handbook and the Webelos Leader Book!!!

Don't forget you're a subset of the Pack. Your Den should have specific responsibilites for Pack Meetings. Also, Day/Resident Camp is often seen by Pack Leaders as a Unit event - you might not be encouraged to go your own way. Each unit is filled with caring, but unique, individuals - it's just as important to be strong members of your Pack as it is to offer a strong Webelos Program.

KISMIF

jd

No, thanks.

There are better choices - for the right, for the left, and for objective non-partisans.

jd

What's this latest goo about her actions during her reign as lottery guru in TX?? And some conference call amongst thought leaders of the religious right?

"ADVANCEMENT"

jd

I'm not Bob White, but I did play him on TV. . .

In the Cub Scout Leader Book (2005 Printing), in section 18, page 18-3 is a section entitled "How fast should a boy advance?". It continues over onto 18-4 where it states, "He may not begin working on the requirments for the next rank until he reaches the next grade or age requirement."

We used to have a Bob White sky signal, but it was annoying and people kept taking shots at it . . .

OK, it was a "cheep" shot, but the tiniest bit clever! And I'm hereby apologizing, and admitting to also missing Bob White when in need of answers.

jd

Great stories!!!!

Terrific reminder that leadership and authority are not inherently inclusive of each other.

Both these boys seem to be (future) teachers (there're many types - don't just think school). Having taught for a dozen years, I have great respect for those who understand that the "torch of learning" is really more of a spark!!! To see them get it at a young age is exciting!!!

jd

Well said, Acco.

I've never seen Merlyn or Backpacker call anyone a nazi. Apparently, "hateful vomit" is in the eye of the beholder.

Trevorum, good memory (or bad one, perhaps).

jd

Figuring out the "intent" and modernday meaning of the Consititution is complicated enough - now we're gonna try to figure out which historical documents the founding fathers considered as they deliberated, and just how much of each one has value????

We have an odd sense of entertainment . . .

stlscouter - your resource list is interesting but far from definitive and shouldn't be used this way. If you are going to talk about the Mayflower Compact and it's value to the Constituional Convention, you are much better served in noting the differences between it and the Constitution. They have very little structural or philosophical similarities of purpose or intent.

jd

??????????????? In the name of ?????????????

Thanks, BrentAllen!!!

Please, tell us more.

jd

Acco, I see the point you're making and I appreciate your effort at explanation. I think you're a bit off target, though.

"Dyslexic, insomniac agnostic"'s, I would assume, are a pretty tiny little group - a group that doesn't suffer the memory of abuse.

"To those that take offense, the best way to deal with those comments is to plainly state you see no humor. However, I for one don't feel that they necessarily make light of the seriousness of such issues as child abuse". Your response is really not much different than nld's "chill". Again, unless you're in the group being joked about, I don't think people should tell others how to respond.

I don't think you'll find RC priests or abuse victim's telling the jokes to which you refer. Perhaps, jokes are a way for others to talk about ruinous situations, but the victim's aren't usually the ones who use this method, or benefit from it's use.

Know anyone telling "New Orleans" or "Katrina" jokes? Are they from New Orleans? Have they lost someone or something to natural disaster?

I'm not saying you shouldn't tell those jokes. I'm not saying you shouldn't find the humor in them. But don't disregard the people who won't find them humorous as humorless. And, certainly, don't tell someone (who just told you they don't find them funny because of their own life experiences) that their feelings are somehow inappropriate -- don't you think they'd trade their experiences and feelings away if they could??

Just something to think on.

jd

nld,

The point is - you don't get to tell other people what wraps them around axles. It's not about over-sensitivity or defensiveness -- it's about putting your own little world on the shelf for a second and realizing that other people - for us that often means children - view the world differently, and find joy and pain in different places than you.

Even after all that chat between your first and second posts, you still dish out that post?? Amazing!! I hope you're better with the boys!

But I'm sure that this little post isn't enough to wrap you around an axle. . .

jd

Trailpounder,

Your information isn't accurate. Try:

http://members.tripod.com/~RFester/

http://www.nps.gov/jeff/LewisClark2/Circa1804/Heritage/NativeAmericans/NativeAmericanInfluence.htm

jd

akaluga,

Instead of starting large - I'd start small. BW, is right - your questions give away many pre-conceived ideas. You're already apologizing -- which is fairly arrogant in and of itself, since it says you already understand what Native Americans have to say to you.

Perhaps, if you begin with the history, customs and present leadership of your most natively local tribe. Become knowledgeable and respected by them and work your way out from there.

The idea of a guide is wonderful - more for it's process than it's content. Much of what is true for your local history will not be true for others. Your guide should be filled with ideas for others Scouters to discover their own local traditions and respect -- not content on how to wear leggings.

Instead of starting with what you think are obvious questions, I'd suggest starting with an open mind that invites knowlede from present tribal elders - I'm sure one conversation with them (led by them) will lead you to many useful questions.

For example, your term "war bonnet" is, I believe, a Euro-American phrase. I believe, in many tribes the ceremonial headress was used less in time of war than in time of peaceful celebration and gathering.

Good luck!! Let us know how it goes!

Don't forget to get info from others who have already walked your path. The Koshares may be the most famous, but I wouldn't begin to assess how factual or respected they are.

jd

Thanks for the resource, Pack, like much of the McCarthy era (and all history, I guess), the information depends on who's telling the story. I've read histories that have him painted as a hero, a villain, a nuerotic drunk, a caring family man. We'll never get at the truth - not surprisingly, it's like trying to understand Nixon.

Is there any history of McCarthy that suggests he actually had a shred of evidence for his claims, or anywhere near enough knowledge of specific individuals to (mis)treat American citizens?

Trailpounder, interesting op-ed piece - does it have a reliable source? Remember, of course that McCarthy never had access to Venona, so at the very nearest edge of viability, your quote would be arguing that his actions become a question of ends justifying means. In general, Americans are not satisfied with such an explanation when it comes to the abuse of their civil liberties and Constitutionally supported rights.

jd

Trailpounder,

Justifying McCarthy???????

NO, NO, NO!!!!

Ever see the phrase "the right of the people peaceably to assemble"???? Membership in an organization that seeks to change govt. policies -- Sons of Liberty? Continental Congress? Audobon Society? ACLU? Boy Scouts of America? Greenpeace? PETA? GOP? DNC? Libertarians? -- is not a crime, in and of itself.

The McCarthy inspired anti-Communist hysteria is on the same page as WWII Japanese-American internment camps, Nazi Germany's anti-semitism, etc. We should have been (continue to be) confident enough in our democratic processes to use them appropriately and not be scared into giving away rights guaranteed to our citizens. Those rights are supposed to be Creator-given and inalienable. American citizens should never have them infringed upon based on govt induced public fear.

jd

jd

Barry, With all due respect, I think you're over-simplifying your historical points and short selling some of the others posted.

"Hitler hated Jews, nothing more. He did not see them as a threat; his motivation to wipe them out was pure hate."

As I understand it, and I don't claim to be an expert, Hitler used the Jews (and other "impure" peoples) as fall-guys for the suffering of Germany post-WWI. By giving the Germans a focal point of blame for their cultural, economic and emotional suffering, he was able to rally the German people to a common cause and rebuild their national pride, sense of unity, and overriding belief in the inevitable right of Germany to rule the various Germanic people throughout Europe.

Economically, European Jews often suffered less loss during/after WWI than others because of their tradition trades, careers, portable wealth, cohesive communities, etc. Throughout Christian-European history Jews were not allowed to own land or live amongst the general populace, so they developed self-preserving skills, trades and wealth. Between the two World Wars, Jews became a convenient target of economic jealousy. Combining that with the historical anti-semitic feeling was an easy political manuever for Hitler and the Nazis.

Obviously, this description is overly-simplified, as well - But, I think it's more about govts. and power than personal hatred.

"North America was hardly doing fine under Indian nations. In fact a great many tribes used the invaders and their high-tech weapons to help advance their own tradition agenda, which was to wipe out their enemy."

I guess it depends on your definition of fine. IMHO, the right to that definition belonged to the native peoples who were living here at the time - rather arrogant of us to come in and "fix" the place - don't you think? Yes, many nations used the technology that became available and allied themselves with/against the Europeans or neighboring tribes - but does that somehow negate their culture up to that point? Level of technology is hardly a barometer of "civilization". And until the Europeans arrived, I don't believe there is much historical evidence for, "their own tradition agenda, which was to wipe out their enemy." Again, as I understand it, tribal warfare was most often about rights of passage, economic wealth and use of valued land. Yes, tribes migrated, pushing one another around - but there seems to be little evidence that wars of extinction were anything like a norm.

As far as the term "genocide" goes - I think you have to break up the history a bit. Yes, there were "wars" of conquest and somebody had to lose them. I guess we can refer to them as "honorable" military actions. But there remains all the "dishonorable" stuff that should not be forgotten: gift blankets carrying smallpox; massacred villages consisting of old men, women and children; broken treaties; concentration camps (earliest reservations); rampant corruption - ultimately sanctioned by govt. officials; purposeful annihilation of their food/equipment sources; relocation of whole nations (without concern for keeping families or even nations together) to remote environmentally different and useless lands; punishment and execution for practicing their religion; etc. Call it whatever you want - if it's not "genocide", it's in the team photo.

jd

By "warm and fuzzy" you apparently mean Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, and Cheerful.

Perhaps, he's learned that he can't be both Trustworthy to himself, and to all others. Homosexuals aren't the first group of people who have learned to lie to outsiders in order to protect themselves and their children.

Here's a parent trying to do a good thing for his son. We won't let him do it with us, so he opts out. But, we still feel the need to insult him on the way??

Seems petty to me.

jd

gregtlaw, WELCOME!

You're painting with too wide a brush, Greg. I don't know if you read all 17 pages of this thread (or the other threads on similar topics) or if you're just relating your personal experience. I won't argue with your feelings, or defend the way you were treated.

But, there's so much more to this topic. Not all Scouters are strongly in favor of the present policy and some actively work to alter that policy. Not all Scouters who agree with the policy are gay-bashing neo-Nazis. (I, personally, have never read the word "fag" in these forums.) Not all Scouters are men, let alone gentlemen! Not all Scouters can be summed up by their feelings on this topic. Can all gay men be lumped into a single group and defined by their homosexuality?

There are plenty of Scouters who would welcome you into their lives as a person, friend, relative or neighbor and yet not be ready to welcome you into their Scouting program. That might be hard to understand, it might be unfair, it might be just plain wrong -- but it's not simple.

If you just vent your spleen at a perceived mistreatment, how is that different than what you accuse the BSA of doing? People believe what they believe for a variety of reasons and based on their unique life experiences. In either case, whether forum members agree with you or not, you're preaching to choirs. Perhaps, instead of preaching, you'll stay a while and chat - ask a little, answer a little; teach a little, learn a little.

There's certainly a place for your sons and nephews in Scouting. (Sex, sexual orientation, etc., are never really topics for Scouts - especially Cubs. You certainly won't see heterosexual Scouters discussing their life-choices with Scouts.) Is there a place for you? As a parent? - Certainly. As a leader? - I don't speak for the BSA, but I would bet other units would have different responses.

I wish you well - and your son and nephews. I hope you find your way into Scouting - ther's always a shortage of involved parents. If not, there are other quality youth programs available - Indian Guides, etc.

Take care,

jd

I just hate it when you're typing up a couple of thoughts that are likely to change the world, and while you're working away some other "great mind" steals a good chunk of your literary thunder . . .