johndaigler

CMPack58,

I like that you're attempting a new approach, but here are a few questions to think about as you try it out.

What is the SPL going to add that the PL didn't already say?

The ASM that the SPL didn't?

Is it possible that your system undermines the PL and the SPL, because the message you're sending is - "This gets serious after you've spoken to the PL and the SPL"?

What happens on the fourth offense?

Does your plan send the message that a Scout who doesn't wear his uniform must be doing so out of misunderstanding and they need to receive the uniform message time and again?

Again, I like that you're dedicated to a new plan, but I'm worried that you've put yourself in the situation of merely delaying a "consequence" to undesired behavior. It would be a shame if your Scouts learned that talking to the PL, SPL, and ASM was a bad thing.

I'm not an SM, but a Cub Scouter, so you might want to take my words with a grain of salt; but I am speaking from 20 years of high/middle school teaching and administrating. If your new plan fails to achieve your desired results (it certainly might work, you'll have to use it for a while to decide success/failure), then I'd suggest that you consider the following:

1st negative situation) Ignore it.

2nd negative situation) Discuss it with the PL, SPL, and ASM - with those three doing more listening than talking. The important point is why the Scout didn't wear the uniform, then helping the Scout see why the uniform is important - to the Scout, the other Scouts, the Leaders and the Troop as a Unit and member of Scouting worldwide.

3rd negative situation) Concrete consequences of the behavior: discussion with parents; Scouts out of uniform are good candidates for many messy undesirable jobs and clean-up; Scouts out of uniform are poor candidates for particpation in many Unit activities; Scouts out of uniform are poor candidates for Leadership roles (Patrol and Unit). You'll have to figure this list out for your own unique unit. BTW, step three should be a part of the step two discussion.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to celebrate the uniform with rewards for those Scouts who wear the Uniform consistently and/or those patrols who do so collectively.

Good Luck.

jd

LOL

jd

BTW, seeing "appalling" in quotes looks much more dramatic than I intended it

Have you checked your local Scout Store? Or Scoutstuff? Other than that I'd check out discountish camping and sports stores - Dicks, Bass Outlet, etc.

jd

Cajuncody, Fred's right about the Webelos Leader Book. Your Program Helps suggests which activity pins to work on each month and the CS Leader Book suggests that the Webelos do a demonstration (~5 minutes) relating to their chosen activity pin at the Pack Meeting.

IMHO, this separates the Webelos (especially the 4th graders) just a bit too much from the rest of the Pack, so next year when my Bears go all Webelosy on me I'm gonna try to keep tossing in the Pack's monthly theme when possible. Obviously, the activity pin work will have to take precedence.

jd

jkhny - It's easy to see your angst, and it will be easy for many to discount your passion. But your words ring true and ask questions that deserve answers.

Speaking of questions and answers . . .

"

. . .,

. . .,

The problem is not that the BSA isn't doing their job, the problem is some scouters never bother to ask what their job is.

The problem isn't that the BSA is a secret...its not, some people just never bother to ask for answers.

You don't need a secret password to learn about scouting beyond the unit level.

Why is lack of knowledge the other guys fault? Who told you that you could not go out and learn about things you do not know about? "

And, yet, with all that challenging and insulting diatribe, you bring the shadow no closer to illumination. I made it quite clear, here and in other threads - I CAN'T FIND THE INFORMATION. CAN SOMEONE HELP ME, PLEASE?

IMHO, BW, posts like your last effort are why angst often surrounds your words. Your post did nothing to help anyone. Your words are like a teacher who thinks telling kids they're wrong is somehow motivational. Gee, thanks, I'm so much smarter now.

jd

PS>> Moderators, feel free, cuz I won't be self-moderating this one.

Fred, You hit it hard, but it went foul. No big.

You're giving this piece too much power, and people who disagree with you, too little respect. They (We) are not all a bunch of crazed lunatics who would gleefully disrespect God, grieving families or the President. Well, OK, I can be fairly gleeful mouthing off about GWB, but I don't want to minimize my point. A "cheap-shot" article of this type represents no one but the author.

At first, I considered closing the thread; in fact, I briefly considered bringing out Molnir, the Sledgehammer of Thread Deletion. But I realized the responses to your first post help to prove my point; and in truth, they ought to bring you a bit of peace. Apparently, you worry more than you need to. The BSA is not at risk from poor humor . . . poor internal decision making perhaps . . .

jd

Only those willing to go too far ever know how far they can go

Since it's Merlyn's thread, it only makes sense to live with his definition of "Creationism". A definition that seems clearly based on Biblical fundamentalism. Let's not spend too many more brain cells on defining that definition.

It doesn't seem to me that BSA promotes "Creationism", but it does seem to wish it could. Given the interests of boys, there seems to be an apalling lack of dinosaurs in the program . . .

jd

PS>> we were playing a bit rough earlier. It looks like we're past it, but let's remember to target each other's words, not each other.

I'm sorry that I've been missing out on all the fun!!!! Three threads at one time - quite impressive! Confusing to those of us with little tiny brains, but quite impressive!!

Statistics show that over 80% of abortions are performed on girls under the age of 21, most of them having sex as early as 11 or 12 right under their parent(s) noses.

If BadenP is to be believed (and I find no reason to doubt his numbers)then he's right that abortion is about what we're teaching our children moreso than religion, a woman's changing role in society, or heart-beats. We tell our kids that sex at their age is unsafe, unwise and "wrong". But meanwhile we give over the lie, because we, as a society, are highly conflicted about sex and our kids see through our lies and contradictions. Just watch TV for a week, choosing those shows that advertise youth related products. We aim adult messages at kids all the time, then we're shocked at what they do. Culturally, we want them to act like adults in all those ways that make our lives easier, but not in all ways. It's no wonder they make dramatic choices and mistakes.

Back to Rooster's original thoughts . . .

IMHO, "Bible-believing Christians" (not my term)"...are portrayed as ignorant, arrogant, hateful, bigoted or combination of all of these..." for EXACTLY the same reasons that "Liberals" (again, not a term of mine) are portrayed likewise.

BTW, the sky ISN'T blue. That's just a view you hold based on your perspective and life experiences. . . . Without being sarcastic, I wonder if there's a metaphor to be found there?

jd

I think the "run it like a business" conversation is a bit off-target. Other than the masthead of Boy's Life or Scouting, where do you go to find inofrmation about the BSA's National Executive Board? Top level leadership comes pretty close to a prohibited "secret organization". Someone mentioned salaries - I can't find any of that info. This clearly isn't a "business model" that's acceptable in today's America. The latest culturally forced trend is independant boards to run companies. Surely, the BSA isn't even in the team picture of "run it like a business". IMHO, it seems to be run like a Men's Club from the 50's.

jd

We print both sides of the pages from the A&S book - this gives parents the requirements, some support info and a form they cn initial and return to DLs for recognition.

jd

Most practical standards already exist. There would need to be very few changes made to G2ss or any BSA policy in order to allow homosexual scouts and scouters.

This isn't a policy about reality - this is about judgements. Like the judgement that the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia is age . . . of course, if true, that would be the same difference between heterosexuality and pedophilia . . . Or the judgement that there exists a homosexual recruiting team . . .

anyway,

What about Units sponsored by Episcopal Churches or about Episcopal Scouts and scouters? I know Unitarians have dealt with (and seem to be working out their shared issues with BSA) - but, some of the Anglican Churches have chosen new directions in recent history. Are (some) Episcopalian priests not acceptable Scouters? Has there been any noticable impact on these Units?

and,

How would a cross-town Unit that invites homosexuals and/or atheists negatively impact Scouts and Scouters in a Unit with a more closely held membership policy? Other than, of course, allowing more funding to trickle down to that unit through regained contributions from United Way etc.

jd

Liz Taylor - Ivanhoe

Ed, You're wrong. If it's a Faith based belief, then you should make this clear. Based on a preponderance of scientific research and data, your understanding of heredity and biological trait transferance is ~20 years outdated. Observe your kids - heredity isn't just about what they look like.

Nobody understands Anne Heche!

Just a question, but if gay parents had the ability to influence their children's sexual wiring and wanted to impact their kid's "choices" would they wish their kids to be gay in America in 2005? I think, we are all terribly underinformed . . .

jd

Moderators as book critics?? I'm definitely talking to Terry about that raise!!!

Though I have thought about censoring a piece or two of writing I've seen recently!

jd

sunscreen, sunscreen, sunscreen!

Hi, Jaime, WELCOME!

jd

Don't understand, Ed.

jd

Student, two points (I don't know if I'm quibbling semantics or keeping you from lazy thinking) ?

First, we generally aren't wearing our uniforms when we do those things.

Second, we aren't as selective as you think:

The people that wear it climb mountains, save lives, travel effortlessly through trackless wilderness, help their neighbors, rescue children. It is only worn by those who have taken on substantial responsibilities having significant outcomes.

A better description might be that those of us who wear the uniform are learning to become the person you describe above. IMHO, Scouting is thought of as nerdy, because "nerdy" people can succeed here. You don't have to be the local high school QB to be a great Scout. We accept almost everyone and celebrate who they are and what they are becoming. The uniform is considered nerdy because we help boys who can't compete with the sports heros (in the minute realm of high school "cool") become the men that leave yesterday's sports heros in the dust.

A uniform is seemingly important on several levels, but if we want kids to associate us with mountain climbing and saving children, perhaps our uniform might serve us better if it served us better == if you know what I mean. Like Uncle Louie used to say, "I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'"!

How about a design competition? Just open it up. I don't care if it's Columbia or RL Polo, Land's End, whatever. Isn't it time we had offical work togs so that the work we do is seen as valuable and valued. Our dress uniforms don't conjure up images of mountain climbing or community service - just us standing around not getting dirty. DGMW, I like the dress, but maybe we should be serious about the things we say we're serious about.

jd

reid01, WELCOME!

That's a pretty broad question. Since the causes of such are varied and often unknown, I doubt there is a simple clear answer in your future. To even suggest they are preventable, makes assumptions that are probably not true. I'm curious though, to see what others have to say. You might be better narrowing your question or atleast defining a few parameters.

BTW, why did you pick this thread title?

jd

WELCOME, Stam!

I regret not finishing my Eagle as a Scout. It's difficult to know today what will be valuable to you tomorrow, but there is no doubt that I would go back and change this if I could.

FB is right - it's less about good luck than clear thinking and good work.

Somewhere around here is a conversation about taking ourselves too seriously. Unfortunately, for Scouts (as opposed to Scouters) the opposite is true. The choices you make now truly do impact who you are in the future. Finish your Eagle. Even if it seems that you're not quite sure why. The "why" will become clear to you years from now -- when you'll be able to see that Eagle and the truth of finishing it, as an imporatant part of "who" you've become.

Good Thinking,

jd

ScoutwithNecker,

WELCOME!

How could the neckerchief be considered a danger? It has been a life-saving tool from the time that it was adopted. And far from being an "uncool nuisance", it is the most distinctive and useful part of the Scout uniform. Legions of Scouts have worn thier neckerchiefs proudly and I am proud to be among them.

I think you've misunderstood me. I know the value of the neckerchief. I've worn them for many years and used them on occasion for something other than neck wear.

However, I'm presently a Cub Scout Leader. Believe me, the neckerchief doesn't even reach the level of "triangle bandage" let alone "life saving tool" for most Scouts (Cub or Boy or Adult) who wear the neckerchief. Few boys see it as useful. Distinctive? Yes, but the distinction is that the only other people who wear such scarves are their moms. Sorry if I sound confrontational, but the neckerchief's place won't be secured by it's practical value.

Again, I don't think we would actually disagree about the neckerchief's place within a formal uniform setting.

And, yes, the neckerchief is a danger just about any time a Scout picks up a tool or engages in physical activity beyond hiking or attending a meeting. Certainly power tools are out when wearing a neckerchief. Cooking and fire duties should be done sans neckerchief. Physical play - football, etc, again is a choking hazard.

Of course, someone might argue that the uniform shouldn't be worn for such activities, but we don't really have "activity uniforms" so we try to have our Cubs wear their uniforms for just about everything we do. And we're not Scouts, we're just learning, so we're at risk enough as it is when we learn about outdoor cooking and building with hand tools, etc.

IMHO, if you take an honest practical look at the neckerchief, it's value is in dress occasions and nostalgia. And, very likely, those are enough to secure the neckerchief's place in the uniform's future, but I don't think you can take your present argument terribly far. Especially in this thread.

jd

Matt, WELCOME!

Pull up a seat, join in the chatter!!

jd

What if we kept the dress uniform for "events" (see drockstur's thread), and developed an Official "work/activity uniform"?

Most adults have a suit/tie, even if they don't have to wear it every day. Don't most kids have clothes for work/play/school and something nicer for church, family events, etc.? And for those that don't, I don't think the issue is too much of the latter.

Doesn't it seem odd that we want to push the outdoors, but don't seem to have an offical outdoors outfit.

Aren't there times when the neckerchief is not a "uncool nuisance", but a real danger?

Could we go all the way to a T-shirt based uniform with all badges/regalia put on the sash?

Interesting questions - interesting thread.

IMHO, I don't think it's the uniform that brings or bars attendance -- rather it's the activity. If kids show up on "non-uniform days" isn't it likely it's really because you're doing domething different, interesting and fun?

I wonder if lessening the formality of the uniform would help families see that Cub Scouting is about more than what the boy does when he's going off to meetings in his uniform. Sometimes, I'm afraid, many parents only think about Cubs when they see the Navy blue shirt a couple times a month.

hmmmmm . . .

jd

littlek,

Welcome!!!!

It's easy to be appreciated by elementary school kids when you act as if you have the same level of responsibility. He has to change! The trick of course is to make him see that being careful and appropriate doesn't have to truly damage the level of fun the boys have.

You said he's an ADL, what's the DL doing?

Would he be better suited as an Activities Chair for the whole Pack?

Advancement Chair?

Is training mandated by your CO?

It sounds like he could be beneficial in the right role with the right controls -- but the greater good and the greater safety are more important and more urgent.

I'm sure you'll get some great ideas in the next day or two - in the meantime, I'll keep thinking.

jd

Alas, no longer are the wild hotdogs hunted in Belgium!

drockstur,

Great post - thanks!

I see your point about the uni, but I think it's an obvious question to ask, "Why not use that reasoning ("to show the heritage and traditional customs of scouting. Its also a good way to proudly show off in a visual way the accomplishments weve made to our family and friends.") to have the uniform around earlier for the important steps on the path to Eagle? Eagle is a grand accomplishment, but the milestones of First Class, Star and Life would also be wonderful accomplishments to share with friends and family.

jd

I loved the Wolf Book. The Bear book, I'm not so sure about . . . where's the singing? the drama? the dinosaurs? the dirt? the Progression?

I guess you could argue that all that has been pushed to electives, but I think that's a mistake. It's like schools reducing music and art in their curricula. Bad thinking and bad science!!!!!! I agree it looks a bit too much like homework.

But the two that really BUG me are Achievement#10-Family Fun (I think for a "family based program" family is getting shortshrifted!!) and Elective#21-Sales (gee, I wonder what's the route cause of those requirements???)

Luckily, there's all the "Other" awards to round out this Bear year -- we're going to run as far as possible with the CS Outdoor Activity Award, Leave No Trace, World Conservation, Emergency Preparedness, 75th Anniversary and also encourage the boys to attempt their religious awards. That ought to keep 'em busy!!

jd