John-in-KC

[ FOG ]

Also, doesn't it say in the God and Country book that the Scout's pastor needs to sign off?

[ /FOG ]

No, it doesn't. Page 22 of the 2001 printing of God and Church(which is what I have at hand tonight), in the box at the top left, says A pastor, not THE pastor.

Remember, this is a tool for churched and unchurched alike. For unchurched boys, a pastor has to step up to the plate. That's part of the role of the Counselor ... having a pastor who can sit down with an unchurched boy or girl. In the case of a churched young man/woman, BFO, the childs' pastor is first best source. POF, new God and Church requires interaction between Counselors, children, and Pastors.

[ NWScouter ]

Also PARY is a publisher of the materials, the requirements are approved by the various denominational committees on Scouting.

[ /NWScouter ]

WRONG!!! Ask Debbie Hazelwood of PRAY who wrote the curricula. I know the answer already, I had a chance to visit with her and Mark during Relationships Week at PTC last year...

***PAID POLITICAL ADVERTISEMENT: It's MORE THAN WORTH THE MONEY to attend Philmont Training Center for the Scouting in the Church's Ministry conference!!! Mark and Debbie Hazelwood are genuinely enthused about what PRAY does, and spend substantial time working RED team and the various curricula, both the ones they write and publish, and the ones they print/manage on behalf of other agencies.***

... Debbie IS THE WRITER for God and Me, God and Family, and God and Church. Will she update God and Life next? Don't know, have not asked. PRAY sends out the draft curricula NOT TO THE SCOUTING denominational committees, BUT TO THE denominations various doctrinal agencies and youth boards.

REMEMBER, PRAY supports BSA, GSUSA, Camp Fire, and IIRC 4-H. They work closely with but are independent of...

Tomorrow (it's 10PM here) is Maundy Thursday. Remember our Lord as He institutes the new Covenant and goes inexorably to the Cross.

John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Trail Pounder,

Adrian is right. You will want to consider God and Life for young folks in 9th grade and up!!!

Adrian,

The level of effort for God and Church (immediate past version) was targeted (so it seemed to me) to a seventh grader. My own son is in 8th grade, and a confirmand in our church. The requirements of G&C were easier in rigor than what Pastor is doing.

If my son had taken this as a sixth grader, he'd have found the coursework somewhat tougher to complete.

OTOH, an unchurched boy will need help from a churched boy or his Counselor.

Pastoral involvement is VITAL to the new (Nov 2003) God and Church. TP will want to get with his Scouts own pastors. There will be times where the boy will interact with pastor one on one.

The Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all, this Holy Week and always

John

Adrian,

Here is the executive summary of the curriculum, direct from PRAY's website (http://www.praypub.org/New_God_Family/god_church.htm):

GOD AND CHURCH

Eligibility Guidelines:

Girls and boys in grades 6-8 are eligible to participate in the God and Church program even if they do not belong to a Girl Scout, Boy Scout or Camp Fire group (youth group and Sunday School members are eligible to participate in this program). This program requires that students have original workbooks and present their work to the pastor for final approval.

Curriculum:

The God and Church program will lead young people on a journey. It will be a faith journey with three parts: meeting Jesus, worshiping God, and witnessing and ministering for Christ. Participants will create either a video or a photo album to share what they have learned on their faith journeys.

My Journey: Meeting Christ

1: Meeting Jesus, the Person

2: Meeting Jesus, the Son of God

3: Meeting Jesus, the Head of the Church

Project: Daily Bible Reading

My Journey: Worshiping God

4: Learning how Christ Worshiped God

5: Exploring How My Congregation Worships God

Project: Discovering How I Can Worship God

My Journey: Witnessing and Ministering for Christ

6: Learning How Christ Witnessed and Ministered to Others

7: Exploring How My Congregation Witnesses and Ministers to Others

Project: Discovering How I Can Witness and Minister to Others

The God and Church Program provides young people with the opportunity to work with their pastor or other Christian adult, to understand the church's structures and objectives, and to participate in service projects that will give them a better understanding of the mission of the church.

The God and Church program can take from three to five months to complete. The program is very flexible and can be structured in a number of different ways. Ideally, the youth will complete this program in his or her own church under the supervision of his or her own pastor. However, it is possible to teach the course to a group of young people who belong to different denominations. In this situation, the individual churches should be contacted ahead of time. The pastors need to be invited to the class sessions that deal with specific church history and doctrine. The young people can benefit from this type of comparative study and learn to appreciate the unique aspects of their own denomination.

The God and Church curriculum was developed without theological bias; yet it was designed to permit the introduction of particular theological and denominational viewpoints on the material being studied. It is the responsibility of the counselor to provide this specific instruction. Therefore all students use the standard God and Church curriculum regardless of church membership.

It is at the God and Church level (when students study their specific denomination), that the following denominational logos are available on certain recognition items: African Methodist Episcopal, Baptist, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Episcopal, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), Presbyterian Church in America, and United Methodist. Information on ordering these recognition items is contained in the Student Workbook. (Note: These denominational medals are available only at the God and Church level.)

Adult Mentor Program:

The God and Church Adult Mentor program is an optional program for parents. Rather than having just their children go through the program by themselves, parents may choose to work on the program alongside their children. In the Adult Mentor program, parents have a workbook with lessons and projects to complete just like the child. Parents will be challenged to learn more about their faith and to talk about their faith with their children.

(award stock numbers snipped)

As a pragmatic matter,

I would consult with the Council Catholic Relationships Committee and the Scouts' parish priest to see how they want to do his work. You may find 6th-8th grade CCD parallels what he needs for Catholic award.

Good idea to consult anyway

Trail Pounder,

I'm a counselor for God and Church. Feel free to contact me by private message, and we can arrange email contact. Happy to share what I've learned so far. I've counseled youth through their Pastors, as well as in district wide programs that are almost evangelistic in nature (several of our young folk were unchurched).

We've had Catholic children in my area take Protestant classes, with the approval of their priests. Why? They want to know the differences in the belief systems of Christendom. Nothing wrong with that. BTW, our Council Catholic Committe is huge on the religious awards program.

DO, PLEASE, make sure you find the new edition of the God and Church curriculum. PRAY sent it went to press in November 2003. Scouts of confirmation age will find it far more interesting and conducive to Christian education than the older package.

Check with parents as you start this. There are denominations that have close practices. Not a good idea to give Christian offense

Finally, remember that PRAY and the religious awards program is external to, although closely linked with, BSA. It is legitimate to invite other youth serving organizations sponsored by your CO (GSUSA and Camp Fire both use PRAY for their religious program as well) to this education.

The peace our risen Lord be with you.

Registering: That is strictly under the province of the motor vehicle laws for your State.

Everything else: Have you asked another Scoutmaster at Roundtable what their troop does? What about your unit Commissioner?

I will say this, having seen troop trailers and troop storage buildings get broken into in my council: The unit and the CO need theft insurance on the gear inside the trailer!

Miss Shell,

Our District has done Life to Eagle 101 twice at Roundtable. The first time we did it for Life to Eagle coordinators. That was so successful, we did it for Life Scouts on the trail.

Here are some resources we have on our district roundtable website (Thanks, Keith!)...

http://www.kaiserklan.com/roundtable/eagle/EagleProjectDocs.zip

(CAUTION: 20 Megabyte Download!!! ... 4 minutes even with broadband connection)

http://www.kaiserklan.com/roundtable/pdfs/EAGLE%20PROJECT%20REVIEW.pdf

This is the checklist our district advancement committee uses to validate a project.

From the BSA website,

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/eagleproject/index.html

This is the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project book start page.

I hope this stuff helps you, your unit, and your district

John

(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

The Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan, and the Outdoor Code are great elements to include in a Board of Review ... not as a back-check on program, but as a way to teach a Scout to think on his feet:

- To you, what is the most important point of the Scout Law?

- Why is "A Scout is ___________" important to life?

- How do you practice "Do a good turn daily" in your everyday life?

A former member of the Council Key 3 sits, regularly, as the Guest Chairman for local Eagle Boards of Review. I've seen him take boys through 3 or four points of the Law.

I went googling for a definition. A fair number of personal or council definitions, but nothing that looks like a BSA policy sheet, at least online.

I would even be leery of age restrictions, though. There are age restrictions at the National bases. Philmont is 14, Northern Tier, though, is 13...

BUT!!!...

I just went back to the website of my youth council; well, its successor council: The San Fernando Valley Council went away in the first merger wave of the 70s. They have a 50 miler trail that works out of their Council camp (Whitsett: http://www.whitsett.org): The Silver Knapsack. Minimum age is entry to Scouting, but the Council mandates some basic skills that probably push the practical entry to 12 or 13 (camping, cooking, hiking, and first aid).

Thoughts.

YIS John

At the "big picture" level, we're all just going to have to wait for this one to play itself out.

Meanwhile, it seems to me that Scouters in existing UMC chartered units should have a heart-to-heart talk with their COR and IH. They should have it before the next charter cycle following this summers' convention. Additionally, district key 3 may want to hold similar conversations with these fine chartered partners.

These conversations will find some parish pastors out there who want to keep Scouting in their parish.

There will be other parish pastors ... who may well tell the unit or the DE to find a new chartered partner.

At the end of the day, this will happen parish by parish.

What the folks have said here matters, but we aren't where (physically) you are, and we don't have to deal with Doctor Dad. You do...

Call your Unit Commissioner. Ask to visit with the District Special Needs chair. That's a position on most larger District committees. If you are in a smaller Council, you may have to go to the Council special needs chair.

(This dovetails with Bob's advice to contact your DE or Council Executive, to ask for support from legal counsel).

Help IS available within your local Council. You do not have to stand up to a recalcitrant Dad on your own.

Properly equipped, you will be able to counter him, and his words will be bluster.

YIS John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

In addition to the Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars are a strong and steadfast supporter of Scouting!

Members of District and Council Key 3s should keep this in the back of their heads against the days when schools and PTAs want to drop scouting because we don't (insert politically correct practice here).

John

US $160???? For 5 days of Cub Scout Day Camp?

There'd better be some GOLD foil on the cubgrub!

I just called my PD for our District DC. US $45.

John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Eagle in KY:

I had been thinking of an adult-youth YP issue surfacing. I've seen some domestic violence situations outside of Scouting, behavioral changes in a boy can result from family YP issues.

I had not thought of youth-youth YP.

Even so, your last (let the DE handle the further investigation at that point) is right on!!!

John

My local school district runs 20 August to Memorial Day. For the pack I was CC and ACM, that was the period of weekly Den meetings and 4th Thursday Pack meetings.

In the summer program, we ran:

District Day Camp. We encouraged all Cubs to come. We encouraged graduating kindergarten students and their families to join as Tigers.

July 4 parade.

August cookout and Raingutter Regatta.

Our Council also has Bear Overnight Camp (1:1 parent/child ratio) at our Council Cub World, and we also run a 4 day/3 night Webelos Camp.

John

Kansas City Scout shop is a BSA Supply Division owned and operated store. They maintain them in stock.

IIRC Saint Louis shop is also BSA Supply Division

816-942-9333

John

I hope there is another involved parent in your Den. Two deep leadership includes a different set of eyes on the young man in question.

I will assume he/she concurs with your assessment of the situation.

I'd start this not by jumping to the CM or the Committee, but rather with the parents concerned. Neutral ground. Obviously this is a confrontation, but try for a businesslike meeting. There may be problems you don't know about, which show themselves in how the boy behaves. Asking for their help may be all you need to solve the problem. Then again, the boy may be following a "nit-wit" of a parent's example.

If the parents are not willing to accept your version of meetings (remember "two deep?" Two eyes and two mouths saying the same thing helps confirm the problem), then it's time to discuss, again "two deep", with the Cubmaster. Find out his spin on things. HE MAY WELL BE SERVING AS AKELA for this young man.

If the CM is doing "social promotion," he's doing a dis-service to whoever will take the boy into Scouting. The two of you remind him of that.

I guess what I'm saying is find the missing information for this. A little time finding out the circumstances of the boy may help him, you, and your Den.

Last point: If you encounter a potential Youth Protection problem, stop research at once and get in touch with your professional!

YIS John

I prefer the KCOIC to the HTACC ...

I was an OC on a particular UFL for a particular function that the "Board of Directors" wanted special coverage on, and I was simulations tech officer at Osan for a UFL where the KBSC contractor ran out of tie guy bodies.

That particular UFL included the joy of a typhoon hitting the Peninsula and suspending operations.

I know the 6 mil material. Even so, I prefer rubberized nylon

John

Mr Brogan,

Sent you a private message on this topic.

John

Our Council requires:

- Registration in BSA

- YP training

- An in-house class (held monthly at District Roundtable) that basically introduces concept of neither add to nor take from requirements.

John

KS...

Aren't you supposed to be out in CP Tango doing RSOI???

(I can trade feeble attempts at humor...)

Since I'm not an Eagle Scout, the rank of my youth expired on my 18th birthday

While this isn't the right forum, I do evaluate the structure of advancement now is far superior to what we had in 1969/70 or so. Boys are in a situation to be truly "over the hump" on Eagle required MBs when they hit Life. In our era, 5 Eagle MBs meant the road was still uphill.

John

GI poncho: Rubberized ripstop nylon, wears like anything... Keep it dusted with unscented talc and you're home.

Alternative: Commercially available ground cloths, rubberized ripstop nylon. These have the advantage of being riggable for a dining fly or emergency shelter.

I've used something like this since I was a Tenderfoot. I'm approaching 48 now.

John

OldGrey Eagle wrote...

"Would it help if it was spelt ALTAR BOY?"

Us Lutherans just call the young person an Acolyte....

(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

My own youth was in the 1965 edition. I think the Oath and Law have better explanations in that edition than the current. To that end, sometimes I use it to explain those.

OTOH, signalling with flags in the bandwidth era is about the same as making Longaberger baskets ... an extreme niche skill.

Also OTOH, the first aid I learned is not "best technique" available. Witness salt tablets

The program is the program. Sure, there are improvements I want to see the National Council take ... like putting Cooking back into the Eagle Required MB list (even if it means 22MB to Eagle). That's not my call, though.

My job is to help young men approach a well-rounded manhood using the 8 methods.

John

AS A NOTE:

Different Districts and Councils have different interpretations of what passes muster as an Eagle project.

I know of a District and a Council which WILL NOT APPROVE orchestrating a blood drive as an Eagle project.

Always a good idea for a SM or L/E coordinator to visit with the District Advancement Chair at roundtable and seek current local guidance. That way, he can guide his young men.

YIS John