John-in-KC

Two comments on Venturing vice Venture Patrol: There are items in the G2SS RESTRICTED TO THE VENTURING PROGRAM ... pistol shooting is certainly one. Ability to drive self/others (with permission) to activities and on expeditions is another. At the same time, the Executive officer of the Chartered Partner (note from one of my professionals: "Institutional Head (IH)" is no longer in the BSA lexicon) the COR, the various Committee Chairmen, and the various Program Officers have a joint responsibility to ensure that Packs, Troops and Crews work together for the common good of all the youth in the program.

DOES THE TROOP plann, develop, and execute a high adventure?? EVERY YEAR??? We all seem to think that because Philmont has a minimum age of 14, that is the acceptable minimum age for outings. Baloney. Scouting war story: I was 12 on my first BSA 50 miler, out in the old San Fernando Valley Council (long since the Western LA Council). Did my second at 13 and hiked part of the John Muir Trail at 14. Three Sundays from now, the SPL is going to report back to my troop committee on where the youth want to High Adventure for summer 2006. That will start the program planning process for the next year. SM and I already know what he's going to tell us. We're working on the program and support guidance we're going to give through the SPL to the PLC. BTW... we got the idea of inviting the SPL to certain troop committee meetings from the Fast Start tape! Bottom Line: Have an interesting program. Let the youth buy into the program through the decisionmaking process. PS: Quite a few of the SPLs I've known through the years were 14 when it was their turn. YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

That the 2005 list of merit badge requirement changes is BIG: Eagle List: Camping Citizenship in the Community Citizenship in the Nation Emergency Preparedness Family Life First Aid Elective List: Archery Astronomy Canoeing Chemistry Cooking Electricity Fire Safety Fish & Wildlife Management Medicine Metalwork Nuclear Science (was Atomic Energy) Plumbing Railroading Scholarship Small Boat Sailing Soil & Water Conservation Space Exploration Surveying Theater I'm really glad for the guy who does the meritbadge.com site. For those who counsel or know folks who counsel these badges, it's recheck time. YIS

Our Troop is also "pay as you go." If the site fee is "per head, youth or adult" then each youth/adult attending pays. If the site fee is a single fee, we spread it across the youth and boys going. Generally gets less expensive really fast. Whoever draws duty of adult cook gets a headcount, builds a menu, costs it, and gets a price out to leaders. Baked chicken on the fire is pretty cheap ... so is a foil dinner. We try to do things that provide examples for the youth ... but once in a while, we find top sirloin at a mega bargain, and then it's steak night. We use Bisquik or a generic instead of canned biscuits. Amazing how the cost per person goes down. Ditto dry milk for cooking, vice fresh.

To all, Thank you. I think what I'm going to do, for my Troop, is simply have a quiet conversation with the Scoutmaster: Ask him not to assign Scouts to their own parents for counseling a MB. We're in a LARGE council, with lots of options for every MB in the program. Scoutmaster controls MB counselor assignment. That is the right point of management for this issue going forward. Thanks for everyone's input. YIS.

I do not think it unreasonable for the SM to give "left and right range limits" to the PLC. The Committee can also give the SM reasonable guidance: "With gas prices at $2 a gallon, we desire the youth not select a campground more than 90 miles from our meeting site. If they do, they need to have something truly special that can only be done at the site." Yes, that's a planning constraint. It reflects that fact that the leaders driving are not made of money or time. The constraint gives the PLC latitude ... PLC is not REFUSED an activity; it has to know why the troop wants to go "outside the bubble." Another trick I've seen work is 1 on 1 time (or two deep on one) with the SPL and ASPL before AND AFTER a PLC. Teaching by close mentoring .. and then asking him afterward "What went right, and we SUSTAIN? What could have been better, and needs IMPROVEMENT?" Sustain/improve give the adult leader an opening to teach processes that work from the grown-up world. After all, we're trying to teach all these youth to be a functional teams.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Thanks to all. Lots of input really fast!!! Special thanks to BW for the comments that I frankly had not found in the manuals. I'm glad someone reads even deeper than I do. I like Vicki's and Scoutingagains approaches: Let the SM assign someone other than the parent, if there are other Counselors readily available (and indeed there are). On a personal level, I frankly prefer that youth get broader exposure and better adult association by going out-of-family and even out-of-troop for MBs. Thanks for the input. You, collectively, gave me a benchmark.

Friends, National is silent. Council and District do not have anything as a hard policy. As a Committee Chairman (and as a Dad) I get uncomfortable when I hear that Mom or Dad (who is a qualified MB counselor for a particular merit badge) has asked the SM to take their own child through "whatever it is." There is, almost automatically, a perception of a conflict of interest; this is really so when it's a one-on-one environment. I have less conflict when Dad, who is a "insert craft/profession here" takes five or six kids through a particular MB. The youth will raise the baloney flag if there are multiple standards for completion. I had less conflict when the SM asked me, a couple of years back, to counsel the Troop through Citizenship in the Nation. I took my own through the training, but I handed him off to another for the actual "discuss with your counselor" sessions. What I want, please, is "Does your Troop or Crew have a written or unwritten policy in place on parents being the MB Counselor for their own youth?" YIS

torribug, Title 10, United States Code is statute law for the Armed Forces. Believe it or not, it's AGAINST FEDERAL LAW to wear a component of the Armed Forces uniform... TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART II > CHAPTER 45 > 771 771. Unauthorized wearing prohibited Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear (1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or (2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps. http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000771----000-.html In fact, under Title 10 is the BSA's authority to have a distinctive uniform: TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART II > CHAPTER 45 > 772 772. When wearing by persons not on active duty authorized (j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category: (1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America. (2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department. http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000772----000-.html Hope this helps YIS

Eammon, Three truisms... Quality will sell, even at a price. Garbage stinks, no matter how you try to cover up the smell. We need to keep the OUTING in SCOUTING. The current field uniform is is very similar to the old Army Tan uniform in the late 1970s. It was a great uniform for the office. It was also a stupid uniform for field operations. The current Scouting field uniform is great for being in a properly heated or cooled building. It is not acceptable for field wear, for many reasons ... not the least of which is it is inefficient both at retaining heat and wicking away moisture. It's not the price, it's not the made onshore/offshore issue. It's the quality of the items. FIT and FINISH matter. Jeans work because they "wear like iron." They also work because folks like Sears, Roebuck put a wear guarantee on their items: "If you wear these out before you outgrow them, we'll replace them for free." Can you even imagine Supply Division, Inc putting that kind of guarantee on the table? I got to ask a Supply Division Scout Shop manager about "Satisfaction guaranteed" ... it does not cover fair wear and tear. My two cents.

I think several have hit nails HARD in this thread National owes the Councils a marketing program that puts Scouting, especially Cubbing and Boy Scouting, in front of youth. This means: - Standard ads at movie theaters as part of "pre-show" - TV, especially Saturday morning - Marketing ideas like Lynda's ... ALL get to play in Scouting. COUNCILS owe their units local marketing. We can have the best internal PR in the world, but the message needs to get to parents in the Council area. Hiking and camping for Boy Scouts, family fun for Cubs. "Timeless values" has a place ... in marketing to grownups, not to the kidddlets. WE IN UNITS owe our kids first rate programs, training for adult leaders, and lots of ideas. Boy Scout units owe Cub Packs den chiefs and program support. Venturing Crews owe troops and packs the same. We in units also owe our parents some pretty blunt messages on values, including the value of selfless service. My troop lost an entire recruiting season because certain leaders did not understand Boy Scoutings role in the Cub Scouting program. My thoughts.

OGE wrote (in part)... "Let the kids run with it, if its offending to local tastes, they will soon fond (sic) out and how they deal with it will be lesson for all as well." Good advice. I'd be prepared, though, for when a Professional or a Commisssioner come calling with an "on the record" complaint from someone outside of Scouting. It may not happen, but if it does, life could get really exciting. John-in-KC who doesn't watch cable

From my observations as a Committee Chair... HIPPA (however it's made into an acronym) does not affect the Scout or the Scouter while the unit is using BSA health facilities (1st aid stations, camp clinics, health lodges). HIPPA does not affect the Scout or Scouter in the routine collection of health forms. (BFO: The keeper of unit health forms needs to be someone who understands "need to know." HIPPA does kick in when, during accident, injury or disease---> IF the Scout or Scouter has to be removed from the BSA health facility to a local or regional hospital for care. I've seen this part in action. We had a Scout whose genetic diseases got out of "the band", and he required stabilization in a hospital. Our SM was not on the "authorized access" list, and had to call home and get parents fully involved for permission for care. That could be a big challenge if the unit is on a High Adventure hundreds of miles away from home. I don't have an answer ... I think BSA needs to revisit not the exam portion of the health forms, but the access to information when a Scout or Scouter has to be evacuated from a BSA facility to a local hospital. My thoughts only.

Don't know about racist... Pushes borderline of sexist. R appears to be a contraction of 'er ... and THAT is a contraction of HER. Yes, we feminize a lot of things we guys do ... including getting the job done. Even so, my mind can come up with a different interpretation of "get her done" ... and it's not nice to the female gender. Might want to see if youth are willing to go with "Get it dunn!" YIS

My two cents... Uniforming, as a concept and a method, applies not only to Scouting, but to athletics, marching bands, police, and the Armed Forces. Look at youth playing baseball, soccer or football (three of Scoutings competitors as youth-serving programs). No problems with uniforms there. Why? THE UNIFORMS SUPPORT THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THE PROGRAM!!! When I (am now or was then) on active duty in the military, uniforms made my clothing choice easy, every day BSA instills timeless values through an outdoor program. Yet, how many of us would wear the field uniform as a PRIMARY element of a layering system in winter? Why do so many units, as local policy, discard BSA green trou for Levi Strauss??? Jeans wear like iron, and don't set youth and families back when they wear out. Fabrics suitable for the outdoors... Fit suitable for the outdoors... Construction suitable for the outdoors... My thoughts. Others will differ. YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Fuzzy... That was his CITY employment photo. He was a dog catcher down there. Object lesson for Scouters: G2SS matters. Knowing who we select as leaders matters. 2 deep leadership matters. YIS

I'd rather each Council contract with an appropriate local or regional law enforcement agency (depending on the major community served by the Council). YIS

Trust me: Some ambulance-chasing attorney WILL try to get BSA National, the local Councils, and ChoicePoint in one huge class-action suit. That's my cynicism in full bloom. To what lionscout said: - If ChoicePoint, as a provider, is not doing due diligence on the folks they are selling information to, shame on them, and let the lawsuits come. - At the same time, BSA National's first (and really only) line of defense bloody well better be: "When we selected our vendor, we did due diligence to a fare-thee-well before we made our decision, and our most important factor in selection was best value." Again, my cynicism: If BSA National selected the vendor on cost, Katey Bar The Door ... the class action will come. Once again, my two cents, with a healthy dose of cynicism. YIS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Bob, Actually, with ussp and meritbadge.com, we have current requirements online. I keep meritbadge.com bookmarked on my PCs. I've found it loads faster for dialup ISPs (the last mile is just a tad far for me for DSL/cable).

As an aside ... I just went through Internet recharter, using the download from ScoutNet. The hardcopy app (latest edition) has a spot for youth SSN, but the online data entry form did not. I had to input SSN only for the adults. ~~~~~ Returning to topic ... integrity matters. It matters when we go out and do corporate FOS pitches. It matters when we go out and do family FOS pitches. If I cannot trust the non-profit for something as foolish as padding the membership, then why should I trust them with my charitable/philanthropic contributions? If the report is substantiated, then the folks in that Alabama Council have done nothing to help the Scouting movement. YIS.

No. My comment of "and lose sales" was a slam at Supply Incorporated, the for-profit arm of BSA. I for one agree that pdf-ing the MB series and selling it as a CD set would be less expensive for youth, troops and (over the long haul) BSA than killing trees. I do think, though, that BSA and Supply Division would have less net revenue inbound over time. OTOH, getting kids to read is a good goal too! John

( blantant sarcasm ) What? And lose sales??? ( / blatant sarcasm ) On a serious note, www.meritbadge.com is a good spot for requirements. He has the Citizenship in the Community updated to the 2005 requirements set. He also runs hyperlinks to resources for each badge. YIS John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Just as a final aside, I'd get Dad registered and trained ... he may well become a stalawart Scouter for the long haul ... and I know, full well, how good a fellowship the adult side of Scouting can be: Especially so for a man "single again." John

Biggest one I know of is to compare local Council cost of day camp or Scout camp to similar for-profit venues. My Council professionals tell us FOS presenters a good chunk of FOS is to offset the difference between the actual cost per youth and the CHARGED cost per youth. For MODERATORS: Why is this an advancement topic??? (You may edit this if you move the topic) YIS John

Mr SemperParatus, Since I'm a Scouter as well as a divorce`, I'm going to answer your question from my perspective: Sometimes Dad has had to fight, hard, in court, to gain custody rights. Lots of reasons for that, none of them worth going over here. Short version is Dad may not be willing to release time with son to Mom. Mom may also be inflexible. If Dad believes local Scouting program is strong and solid, and that son will develop quality relationships in the Troop, THEN ... I agree with those above: Dual registration is Scouting is dumb. I also submit that a Scout is Friendly: Implied task to us adults is to get together with a couple of phone calls and see if SM of troop in Mom's town is willing to accept signoffs from SM of troop in Dad's town. My thoughts only. YIS John