John-in-KC

Barry said it more eloquently than I: I''m so sorry. You touched my soul. I''ll pray that God mends your heart.

Just a comment: Remember, these days, a Scout is either on your charter or not. I know of no way to have Council/ScoutNet place a youth member without assignment to a Troop, absent enrolling him in the Lone Scout program. Does anyone else know if this can be done at the ScoutNet level?

hotdesk wrote in part... "I hardly believe that everyone else''s troop gets all their scouts to perform their jobs." We do not. Let us be honest. About 4 years ago, one young man in my Troop, the ASPL at the moment (believe it or not) was being an obnoxious twit at summer camp. He refused to do his duties, he wouldn''t back up the SPL, in fact, he made the Camp SM and the SPLs lives Hell. Our Troop resident Grandpa is an Eagle Scout, a Scoutmaster of many years in his own right, and on our Council Executive Board. We had a rump BOR, trying to sort out the problem, and we had a rump Committee meeting. The boy was disruptive and discouraging to the point of affecting the other youth. We finally made the tough decision, and called for parents. It hurt! We couldn''t keep a boy engaged in things that should have been FUN (he was scheduled for archery, rifle, and wilderness survival MBs that year). Let us be honest: Most boys are going to be in High Direction, Low Support or High Direction, High Support on the pscyhological learning quadrant system (I & II). Adults will have to invest substantial 1/1 time. It''s right to do that. They need it, and us. It''s why we have the Adult Association and Leadership Development methods in Scouting. Finally, remember: This is still "The Game With a Purpose." When we make this regimented and job-like, the youth will run away: They can get that at football and baseball practice, and have a dream of glory.

Lugnuts Dad, Since you are working your ticket, may I point you to your District Advancement Chair and his/her copy of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA 33088? We talk about it much in context of Boy Scout advancement, but it actually is the policy document for all advancement issues, from the newest Tiger to the aging out Venturer. John I used to be an Owl C-40-05

OGO wrote in part: Other than that, it is just BSA "legal-speak" In fact, yes, it is. There is an anecdote floating around, I heard it from my DAC. Seems the National Council and at least one local Council have been sued by parents over denied Eagles. Legal defense costs money. Where does that money come from? Registration and FOS (and some legal defense endowments for other purposes). Additionally, every appeal of an advancement denied spends the time of Scouters above the unit, from the District Advancement Chair and unit Commissioner to the Professional coordinating advancement. If a new EBOR is called, that''s more time spent. A dollar spent here cannot be spent there (Scouting does have fiduciary responsibilities). An hour spent on task A cannot be spent on task B. Understand, I am not saying it is right, but the executive level professionals and volunteers made a decision. The decision seems to be crafted to reduce the number of appeals over "what does IS mean?" We can turn this to good advantage, especially number 3: If a Scout is starting to miss, get the PL involved to make a friendly phone call. That doesn''t work, dial up to a TG. THAT doesn''t work, dial up to the SPL. Then, and only, then, shift to adults. - Get the problem, as perceived by the wayward Scout. It may be that Monday night is no longer supportable for him. Does another Troop in town meet Tuesdays? It may be his family is falling apart, and he needs Scouting and its stability more than ever. - Put together some possible answers: Maybe a transfer across town, maybe the SM and his son Don pick up the Scout... - Implement! - OTOH, maybe the young man is developing interests Scouting won''t support (varsity athletics or band), and is ready to step away. Gee... that''s starting to sound like active listening and problem solving techniques from WB.

BACK TO THE FUTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! John who still has his youth uniform

hotdesk, Unit Junior Leader Training (old curriculum, if you can find it), or Troop Leader Training. Council Level Youth Leader Training (sometimes called Brownsea 22 or JLT). National Youth Leader Training Conference (at Philmont Training Center, generally reserved for youth staff of a Council YLT). MENTORSHIP... use of the Adult Association Method. 1/1 coaching, as soon as possible after the fact (could that have been done better? How?... get the youth to extract his own lessons learned. Group coaching... practical lessons in leadership. COPE... a low course! ... if they are capable, a HIGH course. Get the PLC working as a team. Get Patrols working as a team. Empowerment: Let the Scribe work with the Treasurer to create the bank deposit, allow the two of them to make the deposit. Let the youth Quartermaster be the one who turns back a tent because it is not clean, have the adult Equipment Coordinator around for when Billy (or his Mom) say "Who the devil are you?" to the Scout and try to reject the answer that that Jack is the QM. More empowerment: Yes, the SM handbook describes your report to the Committee? Have you considered how much of that your SPL can (and perhaps should) make? Have you re-watched the Boy Scout FS tape/dvd recently, where the SPL attend Committee? There''s a host of ideas, I am only scratching the first sixteenth inch of the pile here.

I think that what you said OGE is why I do not like this idea: It can have negative consequences. We are also talking, in other threads here, about the now Policy regarding the term Active. To quote hotdesk If a scout is found not to completing their delegated responsiblities the scout will be placed on probation by a simple majority vote by the Patrol Leader''''s Coucnil. A list of scouts put on probation will be provided to the Troop Committee during the Scoutmaster''''s Report. After being put on probation the ASPL will arrange for a meeting between the scout and the Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, an Assistant Scoutmaster or Scoutmasters, and the scout''''s adult advisor to discuss neccessary improvements. If the discussed improvements are not met by the next Patrol Leader''''s Council meeting the scout will be removed from their position From what I understand of the ACP&P BSA #33088, removing a Scout from his POR is the only thing that can stop the tenure clock for 1C-Star, S-Life, and L-Eagle. It is a serious business, and can have serious consequences. Out in the real world, discharge for cause has some pretty heavy social and psychological overtones to it. Heck, being LAID OFF has heave overtones. Do we really need to expose a 13-16 year old young man to that? Coach, train, mentor, encourage, repeat. Removal should be an extreme measure, used maybe two per cent of the time. I would hope much less.

Lisa, Since I''m not yet one, I can''t say this for sure, But I think the theory is certain Program folks, if they are doing their jobs right, have enough on their plates as-is, and shouldn''t have another Scouting position (and certainly not a principal position): Den Leaders Scoutmasters Venturing Advisors Unit Commissioners If these folk are doing their tasks well, they''re supposed to be very committed volunteers. Is there truth? Certainly for DL''s and SMs... Does that help?

Quick questions: 10K inbound every year. Does the Troop cover basic fees and BL subscriptions from the Treasury? Is there an established dues structure? Are you back out of operational debt?

I had to pick up a copy of PRAY''s God and Church today; my copy was too dog-earred to make another season of counseling confirmands. So, I went to my local BSA Authorized Distributor. She is good people; she is a Scouter herself. She had a copy of the new printing of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures (BSA Stock # 33088) on hold for another Scouter. I took a look at it. I have been saying in other threads "I will be surprised if this is not in the next printing." I was not, it was. Ladies and Gentlemen, here is the Boy Scouting Advancement definition of ACTIVE; it is in a text box lower left hand corner of page 24 or 26 (I did not look that close): For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined? Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if: He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current). He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on). It is now National Council policy. I think the comments of such folks as Beavah, anarchist, Eamonn, and Gunny have a degree more urgency now. The onus is on the unit-serving leaders to deliver the promise, not necessarily on the Scout. We, working with and through our unit PLCs, have to build a program that youth will want to stay in, advance through, and receive the values we define in the Aims. I certainly think we have to think of ways to empower and account program delivery (especially that keeping the Scout informed) to our youth leaders.

We based on end-of-summer COH around Honor Camping. We''d had a batch of young men Ordeal or Brotherhood in OA, and we''d had our first class of Warriors in our local council honor society, Mic-o-Say. Many of our young men didn''t wear Scout uniforms that night, they were in Indian (tribal) attire. All of these particular young men were in their 4th and 5th summers of Scouting. We went through and listed each Scouts'' accomplishments that past summer. Sometimes it takes it being in print for them to see just how much they''ve done!

Lisa, Good thought and feedback. That said, part of leadership development for the PLC should be "It''s time to plan for Webelos transitioning and bridging up to us? How do we recruit, how do we make them welcome?" Problem is, I suspect WDLMom''s area troops are almost beyond that point now... BTW, how is the "not a den chief den chief" doing? Your son is exactly the right sales tool to bring Scouting along... reaching back. That''s where we get most of the kids. I''d love to see some study-level data on capture of new kids into Scouting at the 6, 7, and 8 grade levels...

WDLMom, Take any or all of these options: The object is to get the Troops off the dime... 1) Call your unit Commish, ask him for some assistance and intervention. 2) If you don''t have a Commish, call the DE, warn him he may lose boys. That''ll get him in gear, I promise. 3) Ask your COR to talk to their CORs. Sometimes a hammer on the head works wonders. It should be easy, Troops should be back-reaching to Packs routinely, and not just expect the boys to show up on bridging night.

Lisa, You said it for me. Eamonn, in another thread yesterday, said we are short 2/3 of our Commissioner Staff, nationally! The fact of the matter is someone becoming a Commissioner should be an experienced volunteer, who (imo) is ready to make Scouting a principal avocation. To do that, he or she has to be raised up through a host of training. To me, that means we must take care of the novices. If they get turned off early in Cubbing or early in the Boy program, we''ve lost them as volunteers, forever. We who''ve decided to make Scouting an AVOCATION owe the novice volunteers the very best training. It''s as simple as that. If we make it mandatory, that''s all the more reason to make it better? The downside? Mom and/or Dad will say this is baloney, and we lose a kid from the program, forever! I have seen generation-to-generation "you will not be a Scout." It''s sad, but it''s true, and the pinpoint is something relatively trivial 10 or 15 or 20 years ago.

ScoutDad, Indeed, you''re in a sticky wicket. It may be time to look at your leader training and take an objective look at your Pack. Is it delivering the promise of Scouting, using the Aims and the Methods of Cubbing? Is the premise for the kids KISMIF? Are the Scouters getting genuine pleasure out of raising up young boys? What does your Commissioner see as well? Only you can decide if change is worth the battles. Change is often resisted. You may find it easier to simply take your son (and perhaps your whole Den) to a Pack where things are done right in the first place. No one here can make that decision; you have to go with a combination of head and heart knowledge and do what will be best by the youth!

Why are you as SM giving the Program report to the Committee? Why not empower the SPL to the adults, and give him a major responsibility? Let him do the reporting. Mentorship. Coaching. Guiding! Adults supporting youth need to be aiding and encouraging, not cold and formal. Every minute you have a leader writing an eval is a minute he''s not being a living example to others. I can write an Army Officer Evaluation Report or Non-Commissioned Officer Evaluation Report which will get my Lieutenants to Captain, my Captains into command or to Major, and two of my Majors into resident Command and General Staff College. I worked with them to do strengths and weaknesses, I played to their strengths whilst developing their weaknesses at work, and I wrote to their strengths in the evaluations. I like what Barry said: This may last a few months. Get ready for deer in the headlights stares, get ready to do a LOT of coaching. After no more than 3 months, I suspect the reports will become blah blah blah same as last month nothing new stream of conciousness. Even as a staffer at Scout Camp, EagleSon got informal feedback, mentoring, and encouragement, not hard paper! I''m not in love with this idea.

I appreciate that you found room for the HS students who cannot give 4 weeks a month anymore I appreciate that the youth have planned a realistic program that actually gets executed I appreciate that you are moving a major responsibility (equipment) to youth stewardship I appreciate that you are actively supporting a young man with special needs in your program Frankly, I think your Troop has some pretty good rock in its foundation, and may well be set to take off as a quality, growing program!

If it''s not too cold where you are, we went off-site to an area park and had a campfire COH. A few skits, a few songs, lot''s of Dutch Oven SMACOS (S''mores using flour tortillas warmed in the Dutch), and some handing out of rank and MBs.

Two true stories: EagleSon is a HS senior now. Recently, a beloved Scouter in our Council, passed from this life. EagleSon, using Facebook, organized a tribute from the youth to this Scouter: On the day of his funeral, all the Tribesmen of Mic-o-Say (our internal honor society) at his (and several other area HSs) high school publicly wore their claw necklaces to class in memory of Fast Squirrel. Last year, when EagleSon had his ECOH, he was part of a group of six. We had prepared a press release for the major city paper and the ''burb weeklies. EagleSon was taking web authoring that semester. He showed the photo and press release to his teacher, it ended up on the parents home page! Of the six, 2 were in the band and three were on the varsity football squad. As long as we don''t make them wear their Class A uniform to school, they can and will be proud of what they do in Scouting!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Lisa, To me, the best recruiters are the boys themselves. Their willingness to wear a Class B t-shirt to school, to brag about the canoe trip last summer, to share the tale of getting that weight from the bottom of the pool for Lifesaving MB... that's where you will get the boys. I would add: Scout Sunday at area churches seems to be a pretty good time for recruitment as well. The young men use their Class As instead of their regular church clothes, and they get to talk about it with some of the grown-ups of the parish. Some of the other boys (and girls, after all, Scout Sunday is for both Boys and Guides) start wondering why the grown-ups think the young man is so cool. Other cool things that attract boys: Is there a rappel tower anywhere nearby? Jack seeing Billy on full belay, hands off the rope, trusting his belay partner... that can be cool. What about a town pancake feed, where all 4 troops go together. Let the Scoutmasters and such be the SERVERS and BUSBOYS. Let the young men themselves have a "show-off" kitchen and be seen flipping the cakes and broiling the bacon! Frankly, get the 4 SPLs and their ASPLs together. If there are any JASMs or Eagles, grab them too. Ask for how they'd go after the challenge. I'll bet they have better ideas than I do! Does all that make sense?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I appreciate the thoughts so far. Each has put careful thought into their comments. Thank you I''ll be honest, I''ve not reached my own conclusion on this issue yet. The reasoned thoughts of others, I trust, will at some point resonate with me to gel my own thoughts.

OGE, I really, really appreciate that your Executive Board went to that level of effort to make the training experience worthwhile to volunteers! It shows me that the community cares about Scouting. Further, there''s something RIGHT about the Professional Staff caring enough not just to have program materials for sale, but that those materials need quality delivery. Aquila, To your last sentence I say: YEA, VERILY!!! Considering the Professional Service seems to be evaluated in major part on their sales of unit charters and youth memberships, I have to hope they''ll have the kind of vision OGE''s community leaders and Pros did!

Well, Brent, In the case of the supplemental training I''m not going to (there''s a need for campmasters, and Ranger told me he could certify me 1/1),... - An insurance professional who does safe driving for truck driving schools is doing the safe driving theory class. - Licensed heavy equipment operator-trainers are doing training on the Bobcat, the road grader, the backhoe, and our dozer. - CDL trainers are doing the heavy truck and bus driving training. - Two master mechanics are doing the shop tools classes. Yes, they''re volunteers, but they''re specialists. In my own District, we''ve got a great crew teaching most of our courses. The YP lady is with CPS. Our Merit Badge Counselor trainer... he retired from teaching education. Our IOLS guy who teaches/demonstrates camp cooking? Award winning barbecue! As for me, I got my Instructor Skill Identifier from the Army in 1987, and have since learned Instructional Systems Development. I teach adults in my day job both in large group and 1/1 formats. I teach specific classes in program being a RT staffer. I teach PRAY''s "God and Church" in our District God and Country program from an area church. I admit, we''re blessed, but when others say suck it up, I say baloney. We who are the long-standing Scouters need to learn how to present training to standard. If you can be pedantic about uniforming, please allow me to be pedantic about ensuring we have quality training for new volunteers. If not, we can then cut straight to the ad hominem attacks.

I absolutely agree with ScoutNut on this: Once again, there is no need to bad mouth, or even comment on, your current Troop at all. Simply tell the SMs that you and your son are looking at what other Troops in your area are like. Period. Leave any comments about your current Troop at home. If word gets back SM-SM to your old Troop, see my post above. In fact, I''ll amend what I think you should say: Leave it at: "This Troop does not provide the Scouting experience I want for my son." If it ends up another Troop meets another night of the week that fits his schedule better say "We found a unit whose schedule is a better fit with his church and homework obligations."