jbroganjr

Good discussion BW. Before I get to my suggestions, though, I would not be too hasty in putting down former leaders of a unit. How about the ASM or SM whose son has moved on, or the need to find some other way to do scouting when one is fed up with working with adults in a unit.

Eagle Dad, our RT program is based on 5 minute intervals, as it is my observation that todays society is so used to that frenzied blitz of information. Announcements, you get 2 minutes tops.

unit commissioner: I agree that it has to be a revamped education and training, to add the benefits of the commissioner and to get the commissioners more active. (I was trying to suggest this in another post). The UC's though, should not just be limited to new units. A dynamic ADC or UC presentation at RT on the benefits of their service to existing units. The role of the UC should be shouted from the mountain top that they are there for more than charter, FOS and Popcorn.

Round Table - maybe it should be set smack in the center of training and commmissioner service and its emblem a bridge. It is essentially serving both masters here. And, in many cases the RT commish is the only face to face commissioner contact with scouters, especially with the phantom numbers game with UC to unit ratios.

The UC exansion into venturing is still in the baby step phase. (There's girls in scouting? was actually heard from a UC at a commissioners college this year) And with the expected growth of the venturing program, the same old problems with a new face will arise that need a commissioners touch.

i would suggest a commissioners contract, between the DC and the ADC, UC or RTC, spelling out the job, the training needed, the time commitment and other pertinent info. Both get a copy and this could be used to put at ease those seasoned suspicious unit leaders.

Question, How did this negative perception of commissioners arise anyhow? I have only met, for th emost part, dedicated commissioners. Folks w/axes to grind don't last long and those in name? well while they do no good, they do no active harm.

Yes

in the troop setting though. Why, inactive, or no scout spirit. A case of the boy went through and the SM "bent" the rules a bit. The boy was told why he was denied, and a plan of action was suggested with a time frame (In other words, we let him know what was expected for his rank and leadership position). 3 months later, his rank was granted.

It burns me though, when kids/parents skate through and get rank for their kids. It only deny's a kid the scouting experience.

In another thread the topic arose about the use of commissioners, specifically, the need for an overhaul of the role of the commissioners. a poster, twocubdad, suggested thinking outside the box. there was also comment about mentoring as a role.

Here are couple of questions.

What is the commissioner's Role in your unit?

Is the UC only there for charter, FOS and "referying" adults?

Is there something missing from the commissioners? If so, what?

How do you feel about the UC making housecalls?

If district intervention/help has occured in your district, what was the outcome?

For cub units: What are your thoughts on having the UC bring the RT commish out for a meeting?

For cub units: Does the RT program reach leaders of the pack?

Thoughts outside the box: What about a commissioner led "cracker barrel" for scouters at camporees?

For all scout units: What topics should be covered at RT, that specifically deal with a commissioners role?

Off the beaten track...the best training I've ever been involved with Is chairing a PoW Wow. Lots of work, tons of fun, too bad it was over in just one day.

Best training i've taken is the old Scoutmaster Fundamentals and Scoutmaster outdoors. Developed a great relationship with many of todays SM's, CC and ASM in my district.

Second best: Commissioners College, very insightful stuff was discussed there.

Random thoughts (not necessarily mine)...

What if the PLC has decided that their program has turned into a yearly 1c1y program and they are bored with the program being tied into the advancement of the new scouts?

(This one's mine) why is it so rigid, the 12 month calendar, on BW's part, when 14-16 month is actually ideal? (The troop I am associated with does a lot of service work as well as, IMHO, fundraising, that detracts from allowing the program to be an outdoors program).

How does one approach an old scoutmaster about changing his attidude on 1c1y and implementing one that more directly follows the program set out by the BSA

(this one is also mine). If the buffer zone is one year, and the goal is to achieve 1st class/1year and then the scouts are free to advance on their own, how does one combat feelings of failure for the small percentage (10-15%) of kids who do not achieve this goal while all their buddies did?

i can see how this is interpreted as a separate BSA program, because of the emphasis and I can see how scouters can misinterpret this as too much adult involvement, as that involvement in "making" this happen has to come from an adult. Do not think that I do not agree with the principle of this program. I do, I think it does keep kids in the program. I also think that the other side of the equation is that it also allows kids to find out that scouting is not for them. Personally have seen 3 great scouts quit, because they think that scouting is only about camping and they where not big on the outdoor aspect, but where real assests to the troop.

I like the hike.

Sctmom is right on about the adults tho'. We do rob kids the experience of the sounds of nature at night with all the racket coming from the adults around a campfire. I find this happens alot at camporees and the first couple of nights at summer camp.

A suggestion I use to quiet the "loud" boys down is to get them outside the tents and around either the fire ring or entrance to camp and ask them quietly to listen to the sounds of the night. After a few minutes, the noise inevitably starts up again, as boys are boys and then I ask them to identify the sounds, Is it a squirrel, raccoon, etc? Then I direct them to be as quiet as they can and see if they can see what animals are around the campsite at night.

So far, they have spotted: skunk, raccoon, chipmunk, snake, etc. I was glad they fell asleep in their tents before the bear showed up!!! They never would have quieted down again if they saw that. Suprised the smell of that critter didn't wake them up... It's nice to be an owl, ruler of the night.

To truly make an impression as well as aiming high for a personal experience I would suggest low rise scout socks with sandals.

My kid brother actually came to work yesterday with blue socks and flip flops, so I am guessing we could all be at the forefront of a new fashion statement

do you think I could find sock garters to match my scout socks? What supply number would that be?

Well the woodbadge wet noodle shall be applied to me.

I purposely worded it that way, because, that was the response I recieved from a large portion of packs in our district about a district Tiger Round Up. It ended up being canceled on a district level. It was also canceled in a couple other districts as well.

The number one gripe was that this was being used as a way to pump up membership as well as find a way to fill the day camps. (there is also a feeling that the "new" cub resident camp has hurt the day camps, which numbers wise is not the case, but that is a different subject).

Other comments, yes the kids are excited, but the too many parents drop the tiger program when they find out they have to be involved and that it is not babysitting. In our district, we do have a 20% attrition rate on tiger to wolf scout. This is also followed up by another comment that the packs can't provide the training and support for new tigers in the summer, as all the pack does is summertime awards.

Now I have counseled that it is better to find out now, w/parents involved whether scouting is for a kid or not. I have also counseled that, in practicality, a unit by unit base of recruitment would be more effective in our district and the district had about a 75% unit effort for spring recruiting, not a great number, but it could be worse.

Asfor canceling the event, it was prudent, as it was to be held one week after the spring camporee and the added onus of "burnout of leaders, competition w/ baseball, soccer is a hard one in the spring, upcoming end of the year pack picnics, end of the year pack programming meetings, etc.

I also counseled that at the least, bring the new tigers along on summertime activities, in addition to running fast start for the entire tiger den. Let everyone know what is involved, etc.

The last comment though, really threw me and I couldn't argue this.

We just got to the point where the existing Tiger dens and their energy seemed to calm down a bit and to plunge back in at this time of the year would be madness... The RT applauded that CM comment.

I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. I just threw out this thread after reviewing my notes from RT.

Bob

are you going to be there at PTC? when?

If you know in your heart that this guy/troop is wrong and that there are other people who have either witnessed the behavior or agree with you, then I think that it is your obligation to the boys you serve now and the boys that will be served by the troop after you are gone, to go down fighting. I would not quietly walk into the sunset, instead, I'd upset the proverbial apple cart. The questions I would ask the CC and committee are

is this the type of influencing behavior you want for the boys?

Could you explain to me how telling me that I am on thin ice and excusing poor behavior on the ASM part is part of the scouting program. And further this follows the golden rule how?

Personally, I'd be P.O.'d and probably press charges against this guy. I'd also have another chat with the C.O.R.

OGE - many units never see their COR, ours never does.

What I don't get, is if these folks can get so organized and raise and spend money to fly out to the east coast, why don't they just go start their own program

What is the purpose behind having spring recruitment and signing up Tigers, Most packs only run the Summertime Awards program and not actively meet as a pack does the rest of the year.

Is it to pump up membership numbers?

Is it to pump of fees made at the camps?

Curiousity killed the cat so bring on the answers...

The 14 yr is a good requirement. Never heard of any thing about rank, we have had 16 yr 2nd class at resident camp. great scout, not interested in advancement.

"I wish that was the case, then the racial hatred that is increasing in America would not be happening. "

I don't know what country you are talking about here. I, the pessimist of this forum, choose to see the glass half full. IN the wake of 9/11, where any muslims rounded up and sent to detention camps, i.e. the Japanese Americans, many of whom where born in the U.S.?

While there where isolated incidents of hate against muslims, in a country of our size and population, the number of those incidents where statistically insignigicant.

If you look at the economic power of minorities in this country, in the year 2003 and compare it to the 1970's, the increase in the standard of living and education of all minorities is beyond compare. If we had the racial hatred you allude to falsely, this would not be a reality.

"America is Balkanizing. If we are to make multi-culturalism work, we need to honestly undertand what causes racial hatred. Racists are the symptom caused by racial friction. Racial friction is created when 2 or more races are trying to share the same territory. "

Uh, you really don't make a lot of sense here. Multi culturalism is a balkanizing process. In fact, I would argue that multi culturalism is a mutation of the philosophy behind Jim Crow laws. When groups do not assimate and change into a new form of society, then you end up with multiculturims, which is to say separate but equal. I argue that we are all equal and should not be separate. Yes we will disagree. The founding father s of our country disagreed for months on the form of the government. And if you want ot argue tha tthey did not get it perfect, I'll accede that point, but remind you that their imperfect gov. is still the best model in the world.

Do not mistake the friction as hate. Friction is a natural occurence that has to occur for change to take place. What I mean to say is that in order for the pain of change to occur, the pain of staying the same has to become more unbearable than the pain of change.

Multiculturim, today, speaks the message that a certain group of this country should be guilty or made to feel guilty for things beyond their control or responsibility. It further states that folks have to give up what is rightfully theirs to groups that have no claim or merit to those rights, properties.

The law of this land is the measure by which we enforce the equality of all. It is the duty of the citizens of this land to protect the rights and equalness of the land, balanced by the good of the Nation.

One could argue the point, as I was involved with in college, many moons ago about rights. The Bill of Rights grants the freedom of speech. If you truly throw yourself behind that argument, then youwill also have to defend the group that wants to limit your speech as part of their right to free speech. Quite the conundrum, same is true with establishing equality, as different cultures will have different views on what is acceptable to them and not acceptable to the other groups that make up society.

Thus we have Americana, which is the on going process of assimilation of other cultures practices and beliefs. As the certain of these beliefs are accepted into the American Culture, the culture changes, mostly for good. The friction arises out the the discarding of cultural beliefs that do not make up the fabric of American Society.

There are cultures here today, where it is accepted and normal to be secretive and the broader base of America Society, where openness is a key ingredient, find this behavior unacceptable. That does not mean that the greater society then should all change to encourage secretiveness, rather, that the process in which a medium is met, will just be a bit more arduous.

Another turning point in our society, as it pertains to racial tension is the ongoing change with affirmative action. Affirmative action is a process that was needed badly to balance the scales of equality in the last couple of decades, but I also believe that it may have outlived its usefulness. A quota system (also a multiculturistic tool) now only serves to create doubt about the equality of the candidates involved with a selection process, either acadamic or commercially based. All people should look to have their talents based on merit and accomplishment, not the color of their skin or the language they speak. That said, the laws of the land and the education of equality and the effort to eradicate the bigotry behind the hatred must be stepped up, openly to encourage an equal based system.

Most of the studies I have read, and there are a lot of them with the Supreme court case concering Michigan, show that the basis of data the muliticulturists rely on are faulty and many times purposely skewed to support a theory.

Michigan has actually found that after 4 years, the student body was less likely to intergrate with other segments of society.

In fact, multiculturism and its advocates have been screaming like chicken little since this junk sociology first appeared about how bad things are. i choose again to see the positive gains towards equality. I also know that this is ahard road and this obstacle must be scaled to get behind it. Your view about balkanization is the choice of not taking this straight on, but finding a path around this obstacle and I am afraid you and the other mutliculturist have gotten lost somewhere.

America has learned a great deal about hate and has always sought ways to address the injustices committed in this land. From the Salem Trials to the Iraq War, there are far more examples of how the people and leadershp of this land have change the laws and as a result society itself to right the boat. From the abomination of slavery to the cruel Jim Crow Laws, to the abuse of Native Americas (Hawiians and Inuit included) to the total debasement of the asian workers (who built the west by the way and then where shipped home), This country, maybe not in the most timely fashion has found its way to correct the wrongs of the afflicted. Compare that record of the short time this country has been in existance to other world powers, whether it be the Roman empire, the Mongel empire, the Japanese and chinese dynastys to todays Europe, like France or Germany where racial tension and hate crimes, by population, far outweigh any thing in the U.S.

Steak on a rock - marinate before leaving. Build a fire, place a large, dry rock in center. When hot enough, place strips of steak on fire.

I am kinda into this stuff, so here is what I have made w/ D.O. - basic cobblers, from scratch cinnamon raisin buns, D.O. Pizza (buy the dough, put on toppings and bake; Quessadillas, pot roast, meat loaf,

On a grate/grill over coals - chicken, which will taste different depending on wood used! Spicy Thai chicken, with Peanut sauce over rice, w/ suated brocolli raub or spinach and roasted peppers (sounds complicated, takes 30 minutes to make the meal)

Breakfast, partial to the 'mess' which is a combination of eggs, sausage or bacon or steak or ham or whatevers left over, potato pieces, a little hot sauce, peppers, onions, mushrooms Basically what ever left around and added to the mess and cooked in either a DO or cast iron skillet.

My son: steak or chicken, soups, pizza, spaghetti, d.o. doughnuts, frajitas, cobblers. Pork Roll/Egg/Cheese Sandwhiches.

All of my meals should not require lots of prep or mess, but like I said, I am into this stuff and cooking is one of my hobbies. One of my challenges is to reproduce a gourment meal made in a kitchen to the outdoors. My rule kids can have a taste, depending on my mood and amount of food, and I will always be there to help guide the kids to produce whatever food they like, they just have to do all the work.

I also enjoy the company of other ASM who can really cook to. We try to set the example.

Our kids really took up the challenge of cooking when they looked up from there hot dogs to see us "adults" getting ready for a one pot Pot Roast complete with trimmings. Never see hot dogs and such on camp outs any more!

Best advice is to come up with entertaining and enjoyable meals that are not daunting to the kids. Most Recipes, though, are daunting to th ekids, it requires a bit of show and tell to get them to adapt to a better menu.

Go and find the cookbooks on line either at macscouter or usscouts.org for D.O. cooking.

Yoda say: there is no try, only do or do not!

A scout pack should provide the opportunity for year round scouting. To recognize this, there is the National Summertime Award, with pins for cubs, streamers for the pack flag and streamer for a den, just for providing, at minimum, one scout outing a month for June, July and August.. As for you burnt out cubbers, this does not mean you have to organize and run the event, a parent of an involved scouter can do this for the pack and the boys.

The question? What activities do you do for the Summertime Award?

My contribution: Took the pack to the USS Intrepid Museum in NYC. Fishing Derby, Minor League Baseball game. The pack always provided five option s for the summer, summer camps where included as an option.

It is important that we adult leaders provide the structure or scaffold, so that when they fail, the fall not too far. That structure takes in the safety and health and should provide a basis upon which adult scouters measure where each scout is on that scaffold structure. new scouts at the bottom, experienced ones above.

all of the posts above are top notch.

For foil packs, what do we do about the adults who don't bring the right equipment (like a mess kit to eat out of?). I witnessed a couple of 2yr scouts fashion a "plate" out of a piece of tin foil for this forgetful scouter. I think this was a lesson learned by everyone.

Let me clarify here.

I do not think that going to an ultimate extreme of a troop going their own way is the answer, I only painted this picture to show that there are always choices. I neglected to include in that post the following.

One, talk to the dist. Com, and D.E. about this situation.

Two, work with the dist/council staffs, call them or see if there are other folks in your unit looking to help out in some way. It will be greatly appreciated on the district/council level.

Three, the most effective way, by examples one and two, is to affect change from within.

If the Oath and Law and Golden rule aren't enough, remember that the mission statement also applies to us adults, about making ethical decisions.

I agree that this is a mess.

As for council position and district positions, (having myself just completed my tenure on the nominating committee) I can give you some insight on the "gift to scouting" mentality. It is Hard, really hard, to get folks on the district/council committees. Why? because many of the "doers" are folks like yourself who are the leadership of the unit.

As for the gifted mentality, remember, that the district and the council volunteer staff are there to support the units, through finance (FOS, Popcorn), membership (I.D.ing youth, potential new units) camp promotion (ensuring camp programs/facilities are up to par), JLTC, TRaining, etc. Commissioners work to ensure unit health, (rechartering, help, shoulder to lean on etc) All strive towards quality district and quality council, BUT all need healthy units to attain this stature. How, all are keyed into stated goals. One of these goals is always keyed into quality unit. Why, it ensures that the youth of the unit where properly registered, that leaders are trained, that there are enough leaders on the charter, etc.

Back to the gifted scouter and his impact on council/district volunteer staffs and how it applies to the above. One, with a shortage of folks, esp. commissioners, sometimes a warm body will do, especially if that warm body follows through on a job. NEVER equate this with being liked or influential on a program. TWO, There are lots of scouters who are on the district/council staffs 'cause they no longer work with a unit, (i.e. son left scouting, son became an adult, conflict with unit personal, unit folded, etc), and I am sorry to hear that in your area that there is a tendency to act better than every one else (one reason I don't where all the knots on my uniform is to avoid that tendancy, I wear a couple, not all) Three, and this is the important one, for you, your CC and the youth of the troop. In reality, a troop is or can be an isolated unit that does not need the district nor the council (ramifications later). That is to say: Your ASM is shown the door and starts trouble. Your unit has options, it can go out of council for: Summer Camp, JLTC, etc. As for signing up for philmont, northern tier, seabase council contingentsetc, I am sure that the professional staff would not let someone with an axe to grind involved with that decision and that is based on individual scout applications anyway. If the troop is going to any of those places, council volunteer staff have no input or say on that matter anyway.

Woodbadge? see the woodbadge posts on secrecy, there isn't any, you just sign up or again, go out of council.

The ramifications of this policy: One, calls from UC and DE who will want to know why you are not utilizing council camps (this is a friendly call). Not doing popcorn, again phone calls.

Now when you hit a council in its wallet, and I am assuming here, the professional staff is not going to take it kindly, especially in the long run, as the council outlays tons of dough to provide camps (a cheap camp will have a budget of $350,000 a year), JLTC (yeah, the costs cover the course, but the course is held where? oh yeah, council camp), FOS and Popcorn provide the funds to underwrite professionals salaries, the support staff (secretaries, etc).

You always have choices in life. I echo your decision to remove this ASM. I would be leery of what that individual may try on a council/district level, but I do not think it will effect the troop. If it does, see the above paragraph. But always follow the Oath, Law and the Golden Rule when making these decisions and take the high road. Take the low road and you only serve to help your ASM in his quest.

Witht he proper training, BALOO in place, pack camping only serves to help the Boy scout program by getting the kids out camping.

When they come up to the troop, they have the initial jitters taken care off and are ready to build upon their cub camping experience.

Is it taught or is it just learned?

I believe we should judge people by the content of their character and their actions.

But racism is also learned from other groups/cultures,etc. Today, there is "white guilt" or down with the white guy, even evidence on TV, but the repeated showing of "Dad" being the dumbest guy on earth (Something about Raymond comes to mind).

There is subtle as well as overt racism against Blacks, Asians, every sprectrum, as well as religion (Jew,Christian, Muslim).

And in all of this, predujice is practiced in subset against the same. A "keep down the Joneses" type behavior.

And ignorance is a cause, emotional response another, cultural shaped behavior too.

The answer is that I do not think we will ever eliminate prejudice from the human condition, but through openness, character and perserverance, WE CAN eradicate racism. World wide, who knows, but I like to think tha the greatest country in the world could strive to do this. Multiculturism is not the way though, it only breeds separatism. I stand the multiculturism argument on its head this way, as the reaction tend to be the same for most people. When a "white" based organiztion or church, sets up their own neighborhood (compound) and expounds upon the belief that they must remain separate for their own religious or cultural believes, most of the U.S. automatically sees this group as (insert your own perception here)______________. Extremists, Religious Nuts, Racists, etc.

My point is that the argument for multiculturism does not support this Hypothetical group to be their own thing,rather it warns against their hegemony, all the while multiculturists, speaking out of the other side of their mouth, proclaim the inherant rights of (again insert your choice here)___________ of latins, mexicans, asians, black, martians, plutonians, trekkies, to have their own distinct culture.

Assimilation and blending of cultures is the answer. As the NINA (No Irish Need Apply), which was prevelant in the N.E., not just England example shows, the Irish assimalated into the culture, eventually working within the system to bring about change. One highpoint, the election of the first Catholic, Irish American President, JFK.

I think having separate languages in this country only serves to hold back spanish or vietmanese citizens from realizing the benefits of the country. Another example of multiculturism.

If we could all live side by side, seeing no color, accepting the benefits other cultures bring to the pot, and working forward to bring the lightness of justice and equality to all, what a wonderful world.

Like DS, I do not see color in people. I see who they are and go from there. I find it wonderful to share differences of U.S. culture with cultures from other lands and from different cultures here in the U.S.

Yeah, the U.S. is not the panacea that it could be, but we could be alot worse.

All man are created equal... lets let everyone know that

Eagle Foot

So What happened?

I don't know why DDHII is getting so upset. My brother has asthma, mild case, since he was a kid and the doctor told him/parents that it was allergy related. I have heard this from other asmathics as well, so I assume (a dangergous thing anytime) that allergies/asthma have come about as a description. But I see no rudeness, nor any type of "mocking" in any of Laura T posts,

Why so sensitive? What about the word or description of allergy is so offensive.

I am assuming (again) that most Scouters recognize that asthma and the need not only for inhalers, but the need for knowledge of what to do with a scouts/scouters asthma attack (incident? what word here?) so as to render comfort and care are as important as knowing what to do with the person who has adverse reactions to bee stings (now I am writing carefully) or the person who is diabetic, has ADD/ADHD.

My point, is that of all the posts and silliness that can result from the posts on this forum, I have never seen anyone treat these things lightly, nor offensively.

Again, what gives?

Stirring the pot (pardon the pun)

As for returning a trailer vs. paying for electricity. If the CO donates money or outright buys a trailer to support its scouting unit, why wouldn't you accept it. The BSA does not charter with groups like the internation brotherhood of drug dealers, mostly churches and civic organizations, who legally, run raffle and bingo. The argument that you would return the trailer, but still meet in the building funded by the same CO and whose utilities are paid from the same manner of fundraiser is really duplicitious, no?

As for the right of the scout unit to know how the CO operates its own budget and fundraising, is not just a bit cheeky, but I think the rolls of have somehow been confused. The CO owns the unit, it is not the responsiblity of the CC or SM to deny whatever funding from the CO at all, as the CO owns the unit. In fact the CO could use this as way of removing the volunteer from the unit, with just cause.

In fact, the CO should be commmended for trying to help fund its unit, as there are many (a majority???) who receive no funding at all from the CO. And if the SM or CC or scouter feel so repugnant about raffles and bingos or games of chance that CO like churches, VFW or American Legion use, then technically, that scouter is not following the aims and means of the CO, even if he/she does follow scouting.

I commend ASM14 CO for finding a way to pursue their idea of fundraising, and find it very scouting like that they have will use the proceeds from this event to not only fund their unit, but benefit other youth organizations as well