jbroganjr

My recharge is the boys. Whether in the troop or in the pack. I am from a small town and when I go to school for any reason, I always here, Hey Mr. B, from the younger kids, and now older scouts in 6-8 grades.

When I feel burnout, I know that it is a sign that I am doing/trying to much and when this happens, I also realize that nothing is being done well. So I start saying NO. A simple word, hard to say, harder yet to follow. But it does prioritize things. In my world it goes like this: Am I happy?, then "is my spouse, children happy? When burnout occurs, it normally has affected one of those two instances, so I have learned to say no, i.e. No I won't run the camporee, No I won't run the pow wow, to small things like, No I can't make that trip and thus the work is spread around to someone else and in the process making scouting stronger. Once the burnout is out of the way, the recharge is, like mentioned: Pow Wow, either attending or staffing, Troop stuff, working with the kids, Round Table, etc.

Find time for yourself and balance your schedule.

Congratulations on taking on the most fun job in scouting! I speak from experience.

The posts are right on about developing leadership and the songs and skits are your tools to get all oars rowing in the same direction.

Pack nights will be yours, your style and your influence, there for the boys to shine and be rewarded.

When I first took over as CM, many moons ago, the first thing instituted was songs and skits, no ifs ands or buts. Yeah it can be like pulling teeth. My ASMand I did the first one of the year and the kids saw the potential there in us making fools of ourselves, that that pack, and the troop it feeds, are big, today, on skits!

Second thing was involving the kids! Den demo's, above mentioned skits and songs.

Involve as many adults as possible, giving them all just a little bit to do: You find props, someone else help with ceremonies, someone else to direct dens to "brag tables", someone else for popcorn, you get the idea, the more work spread around, the better. Using above mentioned tools, you all should start having fun! Both Boys and Adults, while never forgetting that you are there for the boys, your new bunch of fun adults will bring your program to life for your sons.

I thought real big, ran a gold rush in the form of a mini cub camporee for the pack, We had 200 people show ( I always included sibs and family), my wife thought it nuts that we went away on vacation the week before the event, but it "forced" everyone else to do the last minute stuff. I had spread enough of the work and leadership around, that no one had that much to do, and yet, a pack of 75 kids, plus friends and sibs, had enough fun over a 4 hour period. Did I mention that we fed everyone too!

The greatest reward was last SAt. I was invited back to the packs B&G and the kids where just great, my ego is really swelled today. Like I said the best job in scouting... and I have done a lot of them, CM is the one where you get to be the "Big Kid"

Also: Go to Round Table was not mentioned! That's where you will get more "tools" for fun!

Its only hair and as to seeing old pictures and how goofy we look, I look back at my mane as a youth and just get teary eyed, being so absent haired today. Let him enjoy it!

I would suggest the following:

Team Clove Hitch - Each patrol, standing outside of a 6 foot circle around a tree, must tie and tighten a clove hitch. One it reinforces the clove hitch, Two, a great team building game.

I use knots to appeal to the kids...they can build the best "fort" "tree house" etc, by knowing the knots and lashings. Go to usscouts and find the links to the hurricane district for drawings of what can be built with lashings! and if the boys want to build the biggest thing ever, let them try!

Scouts is supposed to be fun. It takes dedication. You have to meet your obligations when it comes to not only showing up at meetings, but having a plan (if it is an hour meeting, you need to plan for at least 1.5hrs and have a back up). If it is not fun for you, it will be a disaster for the boys you serve. What happen in the past is the past. You can learn from it, but just dwelling on it does no good. So before you go to training, etc. you have to ask yourself, is this for me. The tone of your post comes across as if you have been drafted into service. If you don't come willingly and positively, you will fail, no matter how much training, pointers, etc you get. The boys will pick up quickly on a negative emotion.

Training, Round Table, Pow Wow, go online and find meeting plans, discuss at RT with fellow leaders what works, what doesn't.

good luck

lets separate the wheat from the chafe here.

for the AOL (Arrow of light, not that lousy ISP), go visit the other troops. It will make your live easier and not set up a "match" tween you and the SM. Now, pay close attention to how your request is handled in the other towns... were they accomadating? How many restrictions where put on you? When you visit, as an adult, note everything you can. Do the boys run the meetings? Where your scouts invited into the meeting activities or were they wall flowers?

Now here are my feelings and this is how our troop runs. One, we do not put on special meetings for webelos. No, we communicate with them what the PLC has planned for the month because it is not much fun showing up for a meeting where gear/menus/planning for an upcoming event is going on as it is basically only work. No, we suggest they come to the meetins prior to that one so they can see and be involved with fun preparations or activities, etc.

As for no cubs doing boy scout camporees and klondikes activities, that may be a guideline, not abold print thing in G2SS, but webelos are not cub scouts and are encourage to participate in the boy scout programs at these events. The webelos reg. with a troop and stay with the troop. Hopefully they are integrated into either their own patrol with a guide or into existing patrols. (in our troop, the scouts really use their resources with webelos, having most of them help with the campfire skit...at the older boys would rather instruct and let the younger guys do)

Now to the chafe. I do not get all warm and fuzzy when a SM tells me that the have to plan a special meeting for webelos...often ends up being a bait and switch and the boys suffer. One wow em meeting then they sign up and are treated to regular, less wow em meetings.

Two, You would think this SM had a clue about how the troop grows...with active cub/troop activity through out the year through the webelos program. [The only time this was a problem for us is when webelos outnubmer boy scouts and that is not a problem...for the all hands on deck means we have a lot of temp. troop guides]

All those notes I asked you to take of the other troops...well they are there as a resource to judge the troop that your boys will probably end up joining. You have also extended your circle of scouting friends, because do not doubt for a minute that SM and CM and such know a lot about each other from district events.

So go see the other troops, ful fill the boys requirements for AOL. See how the program works other places, ask if you can go along with another troop to a klondike. It won't really matter do much if the boys don't know each other if the program is being followed because your boys will know each other.

Tx

J

Well i would love to have enough tiger leaders show up for a break out, unfortunately that is not the case in my district (#1 comment from DL - Boy I wish I had taken up that invite to come to RT...could have helped a lot)

So to answer your question, no, we include them in with the Den Leaders...however, each scouter is asked about questions or problems and we direct those folks to people who may have an answer. If the question/topic etc warrants, we will run it in a general session.

Is there something you are looking to get answered?

In the webelos den, the den leader should sign off on requirements so the boys get used to having someone other than a parent do it. Promotes trust and honestly here.

I also take the den chief at his word when a webelos scout has accomplished a requirement.

Tx

J

CSRTC

Hmmmm.......yeah, gotta stir the pot.

Mike F. I do believe you have shed light on a problematic symptom of BSA and other institutions in the USA. Namely, change. and the reaction to change. And I think that what you shed light on, in many cases, IMHO, that this is a case of change for the sake of change (which is a bad thing) as well as a dumbing down of the program.

So lets back these up, cause I know Bob White is going to come down on this because of all the "progress" made by man in the last 50 yrs.

In 1928, the entrance exam to Jersey City H.S. was as hard as the current SAT's, except it was administered to eight graders...had to want to be there (sound like a familiar concept?)

Now we have institutionalized educational crap bombarded at our kids (like "self esteem" training modules) instead of emphasis on the three R and science.

The BSA in trying to be hip and cool, responded in the the 70's to a loose moral culture by: taking "being square" out of the cub oath ( a good change, IMHO) but went farther by eliminating the outdoor program, namely camping, in 77 or 78. If we all followed the guidelines and rules to the letter, as per bobwhite, we might not have a program today. An instance of change for changes sake or worse, change to be popular.

I believe we have dumbed down the program, especially towards adults, that it is intellectually insulting at times. The new training seems to emphasize on show and try, instead of teach and do. The methods of training are to present outline of training module, read it and reiterate. No quarter is given to group process, group experience, etc. all training is aimed at the "dumbest" of the group. Thankfully, I have yet to meet the person who is that dumb who finds all this training stuff enlightening, especially the newvwoodbadge course, biggest waste of time I have endured in my life. Training has to be positive, engaging and promote the need for further learning and then follow up with provided not only resources, but resources to find more resources. The program and training should encourage high expectations, the evaluation of failure, how to get back up on your horse and ride on...developing character and leadership.

In our culture today, and in our training, we think that everyone wants to be bombarded with tons of information and hope some of it sticks. I personally feels that is a waste of ammo. It has all boiled down to the 30 second sound bite. People are much smarter than that. People are much braver than they are given credit for. I think the rational behind these dumbing down rules has more to do with: One money and management, Two, national trying to break up "old boy scouting" or cowboy scouting and by doing so, has broken down the information so that 8 yr. olds could follow it, Three has made the boy program simpler because of competition with other activities, such as sports. I think in a whole that they are walking a thin line, and unfornutaley, lose focus on what is important. So, keep up these thoughts, i believe the rules will change again in my life time and resort to a more traditional method of scouting. One that is positive, character and leadership building, uses the outdoors, as it does now, but will remphasize real acheivement (not eagle mills, not judged on popcorn $ or FOS) etc. a program that people will want to flock to. A program that is FUN, REALLY Fun, with a person.

Now, having commented on training and my problems with it, I still recommend that we take it. Be realistic on feedback so it can only get better. I also believe in follow the rules (Bold type in G2SS) and guides G2ss, SM Field Book, Handbook, SPL book, PL handbook, Troop committee guidebook etc. Most of it 99% is dead on, to bad we always get hung up on that 1%

(This message was not edited at all, contains the ramblings of a tired scouter who felt the need to complain a bit and is not addressed to anyone. If you don't like it, great, its the USA and you get your opinion, this one is mine.)

In our district, we publish a list of all MB (done by district adv. chair) listing counselors and MB and whether the counselor is district wide available or only for the troop.

Our troop has its own list of introop MB counselors

The question I have, brought to mind to mind by LauraT7, (and I am not saying she said this...don't want to have to get my own vest) is, how much, if any, follow up by a MB counselor should be done with kids on partials. I am particulary talking about troop/district MB counselors, not camp or MB orgies (guess I let my feelings slip on that one)

(This message was not edited, nor looked over, and probably had no thought put into to it)

While there are many memeories, the most effective and current one involved the west point camporee last may. It was, upon reflection, the best and worst campout ever.

25 feet x 25 feet is exactly that, the boys wanted to practice ahead of time, us adults felt it was a typo. Medals and congratulations to the smart ones the boys for foresite, wet noodles for us adults who got involved.

The cadets where way understaffed, and our troop was one who did not have a guide. the spl and aspl found out about girl scouts and missed the plc, the times where also changed for the sm cracker barrel, so he arrived on time, 1 hour late on the new schedule. Started the next day early, cramped and cold. Us "trained" adults, cold, hungry and tired felt a need to step in and help! (our troop is on the younger side and is only 6 yrs. old) and proceeded to screw it all up. the boys and plc went along. Spl got fed up with the lines and waiting so took a quick poll of the troop and starting splitting them up into patrols, and telling the patrols they would probably only have time to do one, maybe two activities for the day because of the lines. Again, us adults started to interfere when the CC and I stepped back and watched what he was doing. It was at that point that we gathered up (okay, grabbed the other adults and dragged them away kicking and complaining that the boys needed them) and all of us 18 yrs and older went back to camp. The boys did the right thing in spite of the lack of communication from staff (troops fault), the long lines at activity stations (kids hate that) by coming up with a plan, getting input, then the spl making decisions and sending the troop in 4 different directions. 5 if you count the tail between the legs adults skulking back to the campsite, properly chastened.

Well it gets better, Upon entering the campsite the SM is still there, making his entry for the cook off. Looks at us and tells us, again, "I told you to let them go (the boys) and go look around the camp yourselves. They will do or fail on there own. Its scouting and its the military, it is confusing large and in constant flux...you just go with it."

It was that day that the adult leaders of the troop saw the light. The boys had a great time, we had a great time. It started out as the worst outing of the troops history, but the faith of the SM and the courage of the spl taught all of us how it is supposed to be.

Since then the reins have not been loosened, but cut and the adults around these parts provide structure (safety, guidance when needed, lookouts for unsafe environments, etc) and the boys do. And when those reins are tried or an adult is "hovering around their kid" the green bar patrol has the authority to take a strip of paper, tear small cut down it, fold over the wings and then present his paper helicopter to the adults to remind them to stop hovering...heres a toy go play somewhere else.

Oh Yeah, it is easier for us adults, more fun, less work, less ego, etc

and ditto for the kids, if not more fun for them.

So yes out of disasters, which are just learning modules if you think about it, great things happen.

Here's my two cents worth

Skits and songs are as equally as important as ceremonies. Kids should do most of the skits.

resources for those www.cnjcpowwow.org www.macscouter.com

Be prepared to be silent, helpful courage for those shy kids.

Pack meetings are essentially organized chaos. When you have the confindence of bringing the pack to silence, then you can venture forth and get them really really loud (cheers, den cheers, songs) Always bring the meeting up then gradually down so they don'tleave so quietly.

never rely on outside entertainment for pack meetings, more than 2 maybe 3 times a year is too much.

Den displays - get them

Promote district events, great help in getting your own pack volunteers when they see so many other adults at these events

Never miss a chance to say thank you.

Here are some other sources.

in a search engine type in flying pig songbook and also camp hinds songbook great scouting stuff there

also try my own powwow books (shameless plug here) www.cnjcpowwow.org it will be up until 3/03 and all material is in pdf format

Bring a bucket as a prop the next time you introduce the song.

Bob, show some scout spirit and give up on being right!

This is inane to see this childish on all parts in

these posts and does not promote a positive image of scouting. If I was not involved in scouting and read all these posts, I don't think I'd want to join such a nitpicky, he said/she said, Im right, its in book, simple nastiness by so many participants on this forum.

The stated purpose of this forum is for scouters to share ideas and build program, character and ideas.

One meeting makes sense, back to topic here. The CM job is the pack program and with everyone there, their is less miscommunication on involvement of dens, what the CM envisions, so committee can help so that a wholesome, well planned meeting comes together for the boys.

True scouting spirit would guide us to give the awards ot the boys. By taking the high road, we set the example that we care, even for those you have left. It sends an important message to that youth that someone cared, no matter whatever reason he/she left. And the old saying of reaping what you sow, sowing the goodwill may bring them back, or at least encourage the ones who stayed by the example.

children

remember that scout law part... kind, courteous, HELPFUL., It seems I need to be reprimanded in singling out Bob white. I read these post and do not normally contribute as it seems an excerise in inanety, nitpicking, name calling, whining etc. None of these things has a place in scouting does it. As leaders, humans actually, we have the onus of trying to make things better and be positive role models and example of character. Unfortunately, this medium, internet, is faceless, does not carry nuances, nor wit and the words hang there. It would pay to keep in mind the oath and law before we start bickering like kids in the sandbox, view it as a great way to acknowledge and manage diversity, conflict, etc. and use this medium as a learning tool (sometimes right, sometimes wrong) just as long as we all understand that it is perfectly reasonable to agree to disagree.

Tx.

J

My two cents

bob white may be correct in quoting BSA literature and is definately correct that training is essential, where i digress from this is as follows:

One, training has been dumbed down out of national in the last couple of years. The number one issue on this board, my council and district is disharmony and lack of communication or wrong communication between scouters. Bob, you come off as a big know it all on a big horse and as soon as someone disagrees with you, IMHO you throw away that part of the scout law about being courteous, kind and respectful. I believe the training currently offered, at least in my council follows that mode of ignoring courteous kind and respectful.

Two. In my state, NJ and in lots of places in the N.E. region there is an epidemic of lethargy on COR. IF our council gets responses to the many attempts at communication with CORs, we would be lucky to find 10% active. Unfortunately, those that are active, most are not trianed, do not understand the program, and I have witnessed there attempts of imposing their ideas of boy scouting which flies in the face of BSA aims and mission. Most units "relocate" when this happens. I do not mean to paint a broad brush here, just point out reality, and unfortunately reality flies in the face of a lot of bob's well meaning advice, though he does come off awfly testy.

The reality is that with a duty to country and each man a vote, adults bring their life experiences to any organization and voting is the accepted practice of our country.

three, I am glad your family all gets along and respects each other, but your model implodes when put in place with the transitional nature of boy scout program, either on the boy level or the adult way. It is and should be in constant flux. The materials from BSA are very useful, but many times are designed for a utopia not realized, except for Bob's units, in the rest of the country.

Also, it is disengenious to come off the like the expert all the time, not acknowledge the diversity of opinions, but rather hide behind rules and regulations. bob you once said in a post that it is o.k. to stir the pot, just stick with the ingredients. I believe you should taste your own medicine on this. If not, maybe you should find a relaxing fun hobby, instead of being the Boy Scout Police...I checked, there is no such animal in the BSA.

Being helpful is one thing, Being rude and ornery is another.

Speaking from experience, most of it bad ;-}

To instill a lively crowd, the leader at times will be the solitary salmon swimming upstream. However, if you keep at, the group will eventually join in. Singing loud is great, especially if like me, you cannot carry the proverbial tune in a bucket. I always tell the group this and direct them to outsing my poor voice. Over the course of my first year as CM (moons ago) I started alone and with the boys all trying, but no adults. Then, DL took mercy on me and joined in, if only to keep me on/in tune. Then, choir members from the church whose children where in the pack, actually came up front to help. Seems I had picked a really rousing song they all knew and thought it a travesty if I had to sing it alone.

Today, I get all the help I need to sing a song.

I especially love it when we hold joint boyscout/cubscout RT's (every so often) because I get the SM to sing. And since it is an adult event, I have no problem stopping a song, pointing out the area of the room that is not singing and starting over (and over and over again) until all have joined in. Nice, maybe not, but in the scouting spirit, we should never ask boys to do what we are not prepared to do ourselves, through example.

Keeping singing (or warbling in my case)

A little history... I am finishing up the woodbadge course as we speak, I have been involved with training, cubs and boy scout leaders, run jltc (troop level) and run RT.

My comments are addressed to following the syllabus. You have to keep in mind that any large scale training material that covers an area like the U.S. is going to be designed for the lowest common denominator. With that in mind (and staying to the core principles involved) I see no harm in presenting the material in your own way. For example, I hate, really hate, the video tapes. My staff covers all the material and then some instead of the video tape, for example in skit form, or in round table fashion.

As to the talent level of the participants...why not find out ahead of time???? Tack on a questionaire to the application and review them!!!!

I feel the training curriculum is going in the wrong direction. Bob White, you inadvertently will prove my point with the comment "You need to keep things on schedule if you want to get everything done in time. " The training is set up in a fashion that does not promote mental ownership. The model is to present your objectives, hit those topics (normally throught the worst power point demos I've seen) and then follow up with this is what you learned. The time constraints are an exhibit (IMHO) of the fear of getting off track...when a "good" leader should be able to keep a program on track while allowing "process" to occur. Process has been eliminated and the training has turned into some type of mantra to be chanted three times.

I also agree there is too much show and not enough do. The trianing should follow what we want the boys to do, just on a higher adult level. In their books, rank requirements say things like "show, make, do" not talk about.

We go over too many common sense things (even though I know that common sense aint' too common)

I'd rather spend time watching my participants do, then spend that time making a slick presentation board.

I.E. - at woodbadge (which I feel the curriculum and presentation of the first weekend an almost total failure) all patrols had to attend a presentation on backpacking stoves. Great idea, but no one was allowed to light one...guess what the hardest part of back packing stoves is...lighting it. This is a prime example of the "show" not do...and then expect these leaders who have taken the "elite" training of scouting to go out and what, fail lighting a stove??? I could have gotten the same info presented just by looking at an REI or Campmor catalog.

There is also too much emphasis on scouting is all about leadership...its not, its also about character development. Without character we get strong leaders, some may even say great leaders like Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse Tong, etc. The next emphasis I have noticed is that scouting is not about the outdoor program, that leadership and scouting occurs without the outdoor program... when the outdoor program is the vehicle used to promote leadership, character, etc.

Now, all the folks in my council who have gone to philmont (venture, District, Boy Scout, cub scout) in all aspects of the training have told me one thing that I find common to correct training...that is to make the syllabus and training your own. That does not mean change it...it means take the latitude to make it "fun" (a word missing in practice from national training) so that your attendees gain "ownership" of the boy scout way.

Please don't start on me about how this national way is the only "right " way. This is a great organization that at times does things extremely dumb. I.E. we used to trench around tents and chop down trees all over the place. In the seventies, camping was eliminated from the program. My point being, the training is training, some good, some o.k. some bad and some disasterous. A good leader questions and does his best to present the best. If you only follow the syllabus to the letter aren't you just being a leadersheep????

It can be a hard row to hoe at times. I have had to have these discussions many times, when my son wants me to be Dad.

As for the balance, it was my wife who insisted that I do not be super scouter and allow my son to go on campouts, my first year in Boy Scouts. So now, when I go, I am a ASM first, but find the 20 minutes for my son... and try to make that time available to the other scouts in the troop.

To get my "leadership" in action is why I do CSRT and now really enjoy being the laid back, fun ASM. This balance works for me and when it doesn't, well, that;s when I branch my "leader disease" outwards and run little things like pow wow and camporees ;-}

Yes, I truly believe that the GSS is there to protect National from lawsuits. I also believe, being from jersey with its abundance of lawyers, that you as a leader need to follow the GSS to protect your own rear end. I also know that national is not coming to your defense and will not provide legal costs, especially if you did not follow GSS. I also believe the GSS is overboard and has the created a ripple effect of keeping people who follow it too fearful of risk and that us folks (I am included somewhat in this statement) look overbearing to the folks who do not have nor read GSS. Having stated that I am in the GSS group, I am compelled to say, that I look for ways to walk that edge, as boys need adventure. So I spend way too much free time making sure that we hit the requirements so the boys can have the adventure.

But, only by being trained and following the guidelines, will you have a defense in court, God Forbid that something catastrophic should happen. I do recall seeing recently a case where a leader was not held liable because she had been trained, filled out a tour permit and conducted the program within the guidelines.

I would also suggest getting a rider on your home owners insurance to cover your scouting activities. Cost more, you bet, but worth it in a catastrophe. Loss often times causes people to seek out blame and punishment. thus the road to h, e double hockey sticks is paved with good intentions.

This is information I try to convey and reconvey at my RT's. Be prepared!

In our troop, we rotate ASM to lead the overnight/outdoor adventure. We are a busy troop and it would be too much for one person. An unstated, but observed policy is for us older ASM to guide the new ASM and stop them from being helicopters (hover around their kid).

Jobs for ASM - running fundraisers, in the capacity of coaching/guiding the boys to success. We try to do different fundraisers each year, in addition to the standards. We use these opportunities to get kids not in major troop leadership positions to lead these efforts in the hopes of getting them to lead, getting a taste of the job.

ASM go to RT, Assist/Co Run troop JLT, are used sparingly as instructors for advanced outdoor skill sessions.

Most of the time thought, we try to get the kids to do everything, otherwise our coffee gets cold, someone takes our seat and we miss out on another ASM story.

We also try to see who is the most creative or best chef on our outings and/or who uses what cooking method the best. There are no awards for this, no formal competition, just an unstated "rivalry" that makes us ASM bigger for the job, if not the pants ;-}

with the troop, we are the dinosaurs (Big Bodies, small brains is how the SPL refers to us). We are there as a model, to show the boys a way of doing it. I like the posted roster, I will suggest it.

As for separate meetings, we talk at troop meetings when troop is planning for a trip. We decided to make the patrol to keep us scoutmasters working towards our goals and remembering what our jobs are, we had to many 'helicopters" you know, adults who hover around their kid(s). I am working on a helicopter totem now, for our patrol award ceremonies, separate from the kids.

The adult patrol is gives us adults something to do and stay away from the kids.

As for competitions, keep in mind we are not boy scouts, but adult scouters. So competitions to me should be reserved for: Camporees (if in the program), Most summer camps run a SM competition. I would suspect that if we ran more competitions than that, we are in fact, appearin to compete with the boys and the boys will lose out in the end. So stay focused on the job. Having said that, I would incorporate the last respondant and use the adult patrols at scouting events, like a camporee, to make the prizes to be giving away to boy patrols in a camporee competition.

JBroganJr.

I am trying to see what the fees for pow wow attendees are, and what do you get, beside program for your money.

As an example, our last pow wow: fee $30.00 (early registration, 2 month prior - $25.00) you recieved of book on either on CD or in print form, a patch, lunch, class handouts, their was also a juice/coffee bar on arrival with bagels and donuts,

The year before, you recieved above, plus a T-shirt and outside entertainment at the Blue and Gold.

Both years supplied excellent program, IMHO

What do you pay to attend a pow wow? What do you get for your money?

Thanks

Jbroganjr

Bob, I did not see your suggestions on recruiting den leaders, where would I find it?

Jbroganjr