jbroganjr

OGE - this never made it to the COR, who I am sure would want this scouter involved. I will try to find out the rest of the story, but I think it is the same ol, same ol, . This is a troop that seems destined to have a small number of scouts. Observed on my part is that the youth membership (excepting new scouts) is comprised mostly of boys whose parents are involved with the troop.

To further complicate matters, this women was a dynamic cub scouter, won cub scouter of th year at our district awards dinner. the leader of the other den that bridged, was just told he is not going to camp, even though it was decided that it would be a positive thing to have an adult that knows the boys.

The quandry here is that the pack that feeds this troop, in the course of one week, has just had a bunch of dynamic leaders told "thanks but no thanks, and I wonder the impact this will have on this pack.

BW - didn't read thru your last post. But this person was then shown the back door and the only conflict was one manufactured by the SM.

Thank you everyone for the responses.

BW - chapter and verse would be nice here. How or what, is the guideline(s) behind the denial?

Now the rest of the story...

maybe cause she is a women

and two, as the pack camp coordinator last year, there was a misunderstanding between the SM and a parent. The SM came home a day early from cub camp with his son and another boy. the other boys mom was not happy. the camp coordinator pointed out a pack ldrs meeting that the mom was upset and that the folks involved should talk to each other and straighten this out. TheSM interpreted this to be a personal attach on himself. Which it wasn't

Can a registered scouter, with an outstanding record, training and positive attitude be denied from joining a troop. This person is currently registered with a pack, won the district's cub scouter of the year award, been the pack leader for two years at resident camp for webelos, is an avid outdoorsperson, has earned a doctorate, been a Cub leader for 4 years, had the den grow from during the time of tenure (which goes against the norm).

The CC and SM did not want this person as an ASM, and suggested there may be a spot on the committee. Even informed this person about training in the fall '03. Person has been at every troop meeting since son bridged in Apr. but this person was informed by letter, not in person, etc.

One thing that is emphasized in our YPT is that the two deep leadership is also for the leaders proctection. In our litigious society, it is better to have the protection of two "witnessess" involved with the activities. This was brought up and agreed upon principle, in addition to the stated YPT guidelines by the Asst. D.A., DYFYS rep, Def. Att. and S.E. at the YPT training seminar. The reasoning here was that kids sometimes lie and it is better to have another responsible adult (Like BW pointed out, trained or the parent of an involved scout) as a witness to the scouting activity. there where tons of reasons and scenerios presented on how and why kids lie. It was the Asst. D.A. who strongly made the point that the judiciary regards children's testimony as suspect, as the children are typically easily swayed by their questioneers and to avoid getting into this mess in the first place, prudence dictates having two adults.

Another way to look at this is as the buddy system. After discussing the reasons of the buddy system with kids, I always let them know that my favorite reason for the buddy system is to share the fun times with a buddy. Having the two deep leadership allows the leaders to have a buddy of their own to share the fun.

i would like to thank everyone for their replies.

Since BALOO training has been out, there has been the misperception that now cub packs can come camp with alongside the troops at camporees. The responses here, especially the webelos woods, are a great solution to help alleviate this misperception.

I also like the idea of having a separate camporee program where the packs can camp out over night.

After our council merger a few years ago, the idea of having the webelos come along with the troops has been widespread and active in all the districts of our council, that is where my belief of having the webelos (2 yr.s) come along.

tx

YiS

J

"It's Leadership, not Leader Sheep!"

That's old one, but i stil chuckle every time i read it.

A couple of things on this thread.

It seems that the folks from COL want this change because of financial hardship. It was also posted that national left them out to dry on this matter, especially concerning the money. Is this not the pain of staying the same which is allowing the pain of change (Pun intended). Membership also can equate Money. The motivationof COL really comes across as financial/P.C. instead a true belief in the "wrongs" of exclusion.

Maybe the solution to the problem is to hold forth the ideals and seek out new revenue generating ideals.

As for change, (correct me if I am wrong) but National has only excluded adult membership on the basis of morally straight as well as a belief in G-D. They have not expelled a youth that I have heard about. (Youth being under 18). I would not hold out much hope that the 18 yr. old life scout will have job this summer.

I used to be an Owl, a singed feathered owl

A wise ole bird, ruler of the night and without all that bradiggio of the eagles, and a much larger brain than the bob whites

Speaking of birds, my patrol mate put to rest all this sillyness of the "better bird" with the story of the hummingbird and why it does not sing.

On the six day of creation, God made the animals. And all the angels where amazed, especially by the birds who could fly and float like themselves. So they had a competition and the winner of the contest would be given the greatest singing voice. The competition was simple. The birds all had to fly as high as they could. And fly they did, with the eagle out front leading skyward. Flapping as hard and as fast as he could, the eagle outlasted the crows and ravens, the owls, bobwhites and falcons. But still the angels called out, "it is still a tie" and the eagle reached deep inside to pull himself higher, but still heard "it is still a tie". The eagle, exhausted and confused, could see no other competitor, and thinking he was alone at the top, rested... and the hummingbird, who hid under his wing sprung forth to claim the prize.

Well, this was the beginning of the earth, and no lawyers had been created yet, so the angels had to abide by there simple rules and the hummingbird family was given the most beautiful singing voice of all the birds. But the leader of the hummingbirds was so embarrassed at his flocks treachery that he suggested, nay commanded, that no hummingbird would use this gift, for it would only serve to announce to the world the hummingbirds cheating at the beginning. So now you know why the hummingbird does not sing.

I was fortunate to be asked by the antelope patrol to M.C. the campfire. They where in charge of organization. And the campfire had a lot of poking at the different animals, but Bruce asked me to finish up with a closing story. The cooperation between the patrols increased dramatically after that fire.

It was my suggestion at woodbadge to seek the high road. We brought cards that we handed out for "catching people doing something right" as we felt our course was way off base with nasty nonsense. It was so nice to go back to the patrol table with Bruce to find all the cards that where sent back his way for such a great story.

Sorry for the long post.

Scouting is supposed to be fun, not just for the boys, but for you also.

If you have exhausted yourself with the parents and the pack committee, then you have every right to turn this boy away from your den. You have not kicked him out of scouting, you have place the responsibility for this boy back onto the parent as well as the committee.

If you are not having fun, I can guarantee you your boys are not having fun. Remember, you are a volunteer and a parent, not a psychologist, a sociologists, etc. Scouting provides the program by which the boys develop and have fun. It provides the support for you the leader through training, as well as program activities like a pack or a district. No where does it say you have to put up with nonsense because of higher calling. Yes, earplugs should be part of the uniform as cubs should be loud and energic. Use that chaos as a positive reinforcer for quiet behavior. Never lower the standards.

I do not write this to suggest that we turn away AHDD/ADD kids, the previous posters have addressed this beautifully and, since I know personally, how hard it is to lose a kid, I also know personally how much everyone suffers when the leader is having no fun.

If the parents won't deal with it (evidenced by your statement of P.C.'s mom witnesses physical hitting and doing nothing and that this is not an isolated incident, but rather an example of specific on going behavior) than it is not your responsibility to fix P.C.

re you mad? Haven't you heard that a committe is made up as a body with lots of legs and no head?

All kidding aside. There is an advancement committee of at least 3 people for balance and fairness to the scouts. Then there is the troop committee and the size of this is proportional to the size of the troop. In the troop committee guidelines (not sure if that is the correct name of the book) there is a list of jobs and details of the jobs.

On that committee there has to be a committee chair (so at least this committee has a head), an advancement chair (also in charge of the advancement committee) and one other member at a minimum ( i might be wrong on that numbers here). After that, a committee can have a Treasurer, a secretary (helps CC with charter, registrations). You could also have a person in charge of tour permits, a person who heads up the fundraising. etc.

The danger here, and a battle in my troop, is that sometimes the committee forgets who is in charge of the troop, the PLC and that the committee is there to help add to the structure of scouting, not lead programming.

I see you are listed as SPL, so the real question is, what do you need to get your job done and provide the program you envision? Those are the committee people and leaders that you need!

I always suggest to the PLC that Hawaii would be a nice trip, still waiting with my lei though...

#1 - ASM serve at the bequest of the SM.

#2 - The Committee is there to support the PLC and the SM to provide the BSA program

#3 - council is council, the troop is the troop. Just 'cause he's on a council committee, shouldn't mean squat with the troop, when addressing this issue.

I would suggest removing him. Yes it is harsh, but you have cited a history here. 1, To have this reaction over a non important rule like cokes is inane, It is just dangerous that he did not understand or realize that this is health related.

2. Okay, let's say this guy is stressed and got angry, due to change of plans, or physical exhaustion of the trip, every one gets angry, but NORMAL PEOPLE do not resort to stripping off clothes and threatening physical harm. (Prosecutable, sure, but I get the feeling removal of from the troop is what you are seeking)

3. The guy's a Helicopter to boot (Hovers about his kid)...just there for his son and his son does no wrong, hence no behavior modification from the parent.

The Unit Commissioner's guide has the part about removing a volunteer. In a nutshell: Troop CC and troop committe and you, as well as any parents who witnessed this incident, get together to discuss this and if they are going to proceed with removal of the ASM (you will probably lose the scout too in this incident). Once decided, you let the C.O.R. know as well as the ASM (There are ton's of threads on this forum concerning both sides of removal, however you have a legitimate basis for removing him). I would strongly suggest telling him in person, either two Committee members or the CC and yourself, there is no point in asking him to face a board of inquisition, it only serves to embarass someone and make the situation worse.

It is not that hard of a process, like all difficult things in life, the process is not necessary complex, often short and painful.

The next suggestion I have concerns the troop policies, did the boys create it? If not, I would suggest having them involved in this matter. One, it is their troop, Two, their rules will be harder than adults and Three, the will police themselves better than adults. It all adds up to preventing this type of adult meltdown in the future. Maybe not for you, but for the SM who comes along in a couple of years.

Adult Policies - A review, before all trips, of the medicals conditions of the kids. Even though I know so many of the kids, and see them every week, I review the troop forms concerning health issues, because I can't remember what kid has what reaction, who is allergic to bee stings, etc. I review this all the leaders of the trip. In our troop we have the "Binder" that goes with the trip leader, complete with roster (from scribe) permission form and payment history (from parent) health form (standard BSA class 2 for each scout), emergency contact list for every scout and every leader, insurance forms, tour permit, etc. All in plastic sleeves (our troop tends to make the rain god real happy to see us).

Sounds like this fellow wasn't trained, and if he was, did not pay attention.

Good Luck

I appreciate the answers. The reason I ask, for the last two years, cub packs in our district feel they are being slighted by not being allowed to camp at the camporees.

2 yr. Webelos are welcome to camp at any camporee in our district, as long as they are with a troop.

Eamonn

I would like to second my support for your approach. When it comes to finance and membership, I think outside scouting is a great way to go. New Ideas, new approaches, new networking. The secondary gain is the positive message of scouting has been pushed outwards to folks who do not have a scouting background, but still signed on to help.

The other gain, less reliance on the same group of scouters to get everything done.

I welcome our district looking outside for finance and membership, as it allows scouters to concentrate on providing program. It allows our chairman not only diversity of view, but added resources. And at the end of the day, if the work is spread around more folks, there is less work to be done by the individual.

DS - like your description of a rounded circle.

I believe that the "Rule of Three" or "Always Three" comes from Seminary practices. Basically the rule is that there are always three. I think that this phrase is not promoted in scouts as it becomes too confusing with the 2 deep leadership. But in application, it would cover the part in the G2SS concerning the scenerio where there were not 2 deep in a car driving to an event, so there would have to be one adult and at least 2 youth.

I would like to know the many varied thoughts on this subject. Should cub packs camp at camporees like the troops do?

Or should the cub packs camp at a different cub venue, i.e. their own camporee.

Do you think this takes away from the boy scout camporee program, which is set up for a weekend of camping.

Do you think this would diminish the excitement that a cub has in looking forward to joining boy scouts.

I do believe/encourage webelos dens to camp with a troop at all camporees, this thread is directed at cub packs camping alongside troops.

Your thoughts?

Could this be case of boys doing everything to meet MB/service requirements and not enough on the "provide leadership" part. Granted this should not be the case, but I have seen a couple of cases this year in the district where the brakes where applied. Why? not for a SM ego, but for the scout to demonstrate leadership in his position. Each case was different, but the theme was kinda the same. Against the rules, probably, against better judgement, depends on the merits of the case. I would suggest following Ole Grey Eagle recommendation and find out why.

onehour has some great suggestions. I would also seek out the webelos to scout transition. If your pack does not have it, the unit commissioner or the RT commissioner should have it.

Round Table will (should) run a webelos to scout transition session, find out and go!

One of the hardest things, when visiting a troop for the first time, is to get by the "boy run" thing. In cubs, us adults run the show, in the troop, the Senior Patrol Leader (SPL) runs the show, much like cubmaster. It can appear chaotic. The webelos to Scout transition should have a troop visitation check list. Take the time to fill it out and ask questions. An important one, does the troop have a ASM or adult leader whose function is to coordinate with the webelos den?

Also, as a a den/patrol, allow the boys to come up with their own patrol emblem, i.e. Owls (which rule) or Dragons, etc.

I would further suggest that the webelos are now the top dogs in the pack. At pack meetings, they should be encouraged to set the example, with walk ons, skits, demonstration tables etc.

Also, a good den chief is invaluable. Read up on using a den chief, he is not just another scout, he should be capable to run a meeting by himself if needed, so use his input... and don't be discouraged if he tells you your plan is weak. Let him show you how to do it!

As for den chiefs, further, the should be selected: one by wanting the job, not just because their younger brother is in the den.

two, while there is no age requirement, a good rule of thumb is at least 2 years or better 2 school grade difference. (3 works best, IMHO). Three, he might not be at every meeting, Four, He should have in his possesion the Den Chief Handbook and He should be trained...looked for the trained patch on his uniform.

I have observed that there are den chiefs who get as much, if not more fun, out of being a den chief than just being a boy scout. It takes a special scout to do this. I have been fortunate to see some outstanding den chiefs rise to this challenge.

onehour has some great suggestions. I would also seek out the webelos to scout transition. If your pack does not have it, the unit commissioner or the RT commissioner should have it.

Round Table will (should) run a webelos to scout transition session, find out and go!

One of the hardest things, when visiting a troop for the first time, is to get by the "boy run" thing. In cubs, us adults run the show, in the troop, the Senior Patrol Leader (SPL) runs the show, much like cubmaster. It can appear chaotic. The webelos to Scout transition should have a troop visitation check list. Take the time to fill it out and ask questions. An important one, does the troop have a ASM or adult leader whose function is to coordinate with the webelos den?

Also, as a a den/patrol, allow the boys to come up with their own patrol emblem, i.e. Owls (which rule) or Dragons, etc.

I would further suggest that the webelos are now the top dogs in the pack. At pack meetings, they should be encouraged to set the example, with walk ons, skits, demonstration tables etc.

Also, a good den chief is invaluable. Read up on using a den chief, he is not just another scout, he should be capable to run a meeting by himself if needed, so use his input... and don't be discouraged if he tells you your plan is weak. Let him show you how to do it!

As for den chiefs, further, the should be selected: one by wanting the job, not just because their younger brother is in the den.

two, while there is no age requirement, a good rule of thumb is at least 2 years or better 2 school grade difference. (3 works best, IMHO). Three, he might not be at every meeting, Four, He should have in his possesion the Den Chief Handbook and He should be trained...looked for the trained patch on his uniform.

I have observed that there are den chiefs who get as much, if not more fun, out of being a den chief than just being a boy scout. It takes a special scout to do this. I have been fortunate to see some outstanding den chiefs rise to this challenge.

Your Council professionals will probably just love to have a talk with your SM....

In our council, D.E.'s are apprised of where units go to summer camp as well as the numbers of boys, percentage-wise. Why? Well they want us to use the council camps. Every year, either in person at RT or on the phone, units are called, in a friendly way, about attending camp.

I am pretty sure that there may be some one at your council who could call your SM.

Another suggestion is to get the boys to try out the camp as a troop on a weekend getaway. Call up the Camp or Service center to reserve a spot...

Or better yet have all the above coordinated to show the BOYS what the camp is about... and have a the CC, and other ASM's come along.

Don't discount the latrine thing...it is a big deal, even with adults. The "filthy" might be a cover for an aversion to old plumbing facilities.

(Scoutmaster Merit BAdge, requirement #3, b. scour camp on first day for flush toilets!)

This message was not edited, nor proofed. All typos where typed at time message was typed.

The Lord does work in mysterious ways.

I would imagine Eamonn that this experience will only reinforce your commitment to mankind and scouting. You are blessed to bear witness to a boy who examplified the Oath and Law and while he might not realize it now, has a solid grasp of what is important. Thank you for sharing this with us and putting the focus where it should be!

Thrifty, Brave and Reverent

okay, so not only do we have the boy scout police on board here, but also the english venacular patrol.

i write in context, not to have stand alone sentences disected.

Does anyone else see the irony here, that when the mirror is faced at BW, his reaction is that of the folks he "

As for baiting

your quote "I am surprised Ed. Didn't you set the 25 mile per hour speed limit? After all it's your car and your street, so I assumed it was your rule"

Can you explain to me exactly how this is not baiting, how this is not unprovoked? Could you point out to me in this thread how evmori has lain down a challenge? Exactly who elected you judge and jury?

The difference tween us, BW, is that when it is pointed out how I may have the incorrect line of thought, I acknowledge my mistake. i do not then cheapen my admittance by addinga "but" to continue to justify my argument.

As for the program, it continuously evolves, does it not? Arguments are necessary for this change and the program adapts for the different folks, not the other way around. The program is set up with aims and missions, published guidelines are available, and training reinforces this notion.

your argument that the diverse cultures adapt themselves to the program is not how the program is presented in the N.E. Region, nor supported by the speech from the National Commissioner.

A further example of this is the adaptation and creation of the Venture Program. The BSA program was changed to fill the need of not only older scouts, but went to the limit of making it co-ed. How did all these venture folks adapt their diversity to the BSA program? they didn't.

As for theNSP and 1st year scouts. I sit on the sidelines with this experiment, for that is what it is. It seems to promote so many good arguments. Personally, I have seen this program implemented a couple of different ways, eithe NSP patrols or incorporation into existing patrols. I have seen it suceed both ways and seen it fail both ways. So to me, the jury is still out on this one. Brand me the heretic, but I can stand the heat and will remain firmly planted in the kitchen...

Here's the flip side.

I have had a handicapped scout at camp with nothing listed on his form, even though his handicap was physical as well as mental.

He lasted one day. Left camp, left scouts

I have had a boy, whose parents told us he had allergy meds sent to the health lodge. No one was told that he had to have them every day. Turns out it was not allergy but anti depressive. The sorry part of this story is that the kid would not take them and spent a week in "hell" at camp as he jumped off the diving board into full blown depression. It is unfair to Scoutleaders, who basically are just parents, who try their best to help these kids. The family's privacy was maintained, but at what cost? The kid left scouts, bitterly.

As for rights, how about some honesty. Like not telling leaders the meds are for allergies and the boy will take them when he needs them. How about contacting the phys. for camp or the camp director and let them know that the kid has to go every day for meds. I can live happily with that.

Parents should always know what is happening healthwise with their kids.

Our troop maintains "the BOOK" with copies of health forms (mandated for camp), as well as every emergency number for contact that goes with us on all outings.

I believe that 99.9% parents will let someone know about their kids health needs. but that .1% really can screw up a day