Its Me

No flag Ceremony?

Arrest that Cubmaster!

I think in the baloo book there is an outline for a campfire program.

Three hours seems long to me too.

In general I love kid skits. The invisible bench, chair and fence skit will always bring a smile to my face. Mix in some songs and a few Books Never written jokes and wa'la', you'll have a good night.

mn_scout wrote

"Cub Scouts is a preparatory program for Boy Scouts."

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH! scratch nails on the blackboard!

Anarchist you are right. Once I came back from wood badge I was so impressed with the patrol method that I wanted my boys to have that experience sooner. What the boys are learning in Webelos seems like fluff compared to the personal growth potential available in Boy Scouts. In addition a boy can join boy scouts without ever having been a cub scout.

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

Yea I am on rant. Better here I suppose.

I am looking at the Webelos program and it just looks too academic. The kids that really enjoy the material are the academic over achievers. My boy likes it, his best bud likes it and another kid really likes it. Two of these kids are in their schools gifted program and the third has applied for his own patent.

I just don't want to waste my child's or mine time teaching academics while waiting to join a Boy Scout troop. Make it exciting! Ok I can make paint drying exciting if I have to. But is that the best use of time?

Neither in this thread nor in the other thread did someone make a definitive argument that the program is exactly what our boys need. Nor that they aren't saving the cool stuff for scouting. To paraphrase what has been represented in this thread, the Webelos program is meant to prepare them for Boy scouts.

So I will get a half hearted nod that the program is academic heavy, and I get that its a training time for the Boy Scouts, but no one but me, seems to think that combined these two themes equate to make for a less than stellar program.

Could it be that the Webelos program itself is the reason for the high attrition rate between the two scouting divisions?

Compare a Weblos Fitness requirement with a tenderfoot rank requirement. The Tenderfoot is much more physical even than the fitness element in Webelos.

Webelos has write a safety booklet tenderfoot has demonstare the heimlich maneuver.

Webelos keep a record of your daily meals, Tenderfoot count how many push-ups.

It would appear that there is some sacrificing of the webelos program in order to grab the first year boy scout's attention. A real robiing of Peter to pay Paul.

Webelos Fitness:

-With a parent or other adult family member complete a safety notebook, which is discussed in the booklet "How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse " that is in your Webelos handbook.

Read the meal planning information in this chapter. With a parent or other family member, plan a week of meals. Explain what kinds of meals are best for you and why.

-Keep a record of your daily meals and snacks for a week. Decide -whether you have been eating foods that are good for you.

-Tell an adult member of your family about the bad effects smoking or chewing tobacco would have on your body.

-Tell an adult member of your family four reasons why you should not use alcohol and how it could affect you.

-Tell an adult member of your family what drugs could do to your body and how they would affect your ability to think clearly.

-Read the booklet Take A Stand Against Drugs! Discuss it with an adult and show that you understand the material.

Tenderfoor rank:

-Present yourself to your leader, properly dressed, before going on an overnight camping trip. Show the camping gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it.

Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch.

-On the campout, assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrol's meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together.

-a. Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope.

-b. Demonstrate you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch.

-Explain the rules of safe hiking, both on the highway and cross-country, during the day and at night. Explain what to do if you are lost.

-Demonstrate how to display, raise, lower, and fold the American flag.

-Repeat from memory and explain in your own words the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan.

-Know your patrol name, give the patrol yell, and describe your patrol flag.

Explain why we use the buddy system in Scouting.

-a. Record your best in the following tests:

Push-ups

Pull-ups

Sit-ups

Standing long jump

1/4 mile walk/run

b. Show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days.

-Identify local poisonous plants; tell how to treat for exposure to them.

a. Demonstrate the Heimlich maneuver and tell when it is used.

b. Show first aid for the following:

Simple cuts and scratches

Blisters on the hand and foot

Minor burns or scalds (first degree)

Bites and stings of insects and ticks

Poisonous snakebite

Nosebleed

Frostbite and sunburn

Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

Participate in a Scoutmaster conference.

Complete your board of review

Thanks for the comments. I tried to deliver an upbeat program. I told the story of the national anthem in first person with the lights dimmed and a couple dads making bomb and rocket noises.

The above requirements are basically fourth grade lesson plans. I searched the net and almost verbatim the citizen requirement spewed out of Google in the form of fourth grade lesson plans. When I did do Part 1 of the citizen requirement the boys blew me away with how much they already knew. So I spent a couple hours working from a lesson plan to prepare to teach the boys American government when they already had it taught to them by a professional educator.

The second item of contention is the requirement is not tactile enough. More hands on for goodness sakes needs to written right into the lesson (requirement). Looking back at the 1954 Lion/Webelos book the citizen part consisted mainly of properly folding a flag. Great! Its hand-on, simple, with no researching, reporting or writing. Read fun!

Somehow over the years it appears that the Cub program has morphed into an evening tutoring program. As a Cub leader I would like to think that our evenings spent with the boys are used to fulfill a niche in their maturation process. The above is not a niche but supplemental school work. Read not fun!

The two main requirements for Webelos are citizenship and fitness. The requirements below look exactly like school work and the fitnes requirement is all talk. What kid wants to come out of the class room and then spend 85 minutes reseraching and reporting?

CITIZENSHIP

With your parent, guardian, or Webelos den leader, complete the Citizenship Character Connection.

-Know: List some of your rights as a citizen of the United States of America. Tell ways you can show respect for the rights of others.

-Commit: Name some ways a boy your age can be a good citizen. Tell how you plan to be a good citizen and how you plan to influence others to be good citizens.

-Practice: Choose one of the requirements for this activity badge that helps you be a good citizen. Complete the requirement and tell why completing it helped you be a good citizen.

Do All of These:

-Know the names of the President and Vice-President of the United States, elected Governor of your state and the head of your local government.

-Describe the flag of the United States and give a short history of it. With another Webelos Scout helping you, show how to hoist and lower the flag, how to hang it horizontally and vertically on a wall, and how to fold it. Tell how to retire a worn or tattered flag properly.

-Explain why you should respect your country's flag. Tell some of the special days we fly it. Tell when to salute the flag and show how to do it.

-Repeat the Pledge of Allegiance from memory. Explain its meaning in your own words.

-Tell how our National Anthem was written.

-Explain the rights and duties of a citizen of the United States. ---Explain what a citizen should do to save our natural resources.

-As a Webelos Scout, earn the Cub Scout Academics belt loop for Citizenship. At a Webelos den meeting, talk about the service project Good Turn that you did.

FITNESS

Do This:

With your parent, guardian, or Webelos den leader, complete the Health and Fitness Character Connection.

-Know: Tell why it is important to be healthy, clean, and fit.

-Commit: Tell when it is difficult for you to stick with good health habits. Tell where you can go to be with others who encourage you to be healthy, clean, and fit.

-Practice: Practice good health habits while doing the requirements for this activity badge.

And Do Six of These:

-With a parent or other adult family member complete a safety notebook, which is discussed in the booklet "How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse " that is in your Webelos handbook.

-Read the meal planning information in this chapter. With a parent or other family member, plan a week of meals. Explain what kinds of meals are best for you and why.

-Keep a record of your daily meals and snacks for a week. Decide whether you have been eating foods that are good for you.

-Tell an adult member of your family about the bad effects smoking or chewing tobacco would have on your body.

-Tell an adult member of your family four reasons why you should not use alcohol and how it could affect you.

-Tell an adult member of your family what drugs could do to your body and how they would affect your ability to think clearly.

-Read the booklet Take A Stand Against Drugs! Discuss it with an adult and show that you understand the material.

Boring!

In my Woodbadge course last year we had 4-5 adult Venture leaders on staff. And a venture crew showed up the second weekend to discuss LNT.

We got ours Thursday 9-1.

We run a rain gutter regetta and give out no awards. Our 100+ cubs just keep cricling through the 3 race line (6 gutters altogether. This way they can race as many times as they want. Nobody seems to notice that we aren't really racing.

What does a Bear do in the woods?

Whatever it wants to.

Bear patrol SR676.

I try and meet 4x per month (1 Pack 2 Dens, 1 Outing) but:

September, November, December and January all have holidays that usually cancels out one meeting. Not always.

Jeesh, you guys break into song just when this thread was about to go no-where.

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

I am niether part of the problem nor part of the solution. I work hard to deliver the program I am responsible for which is a Webelos I program to a group of 9 year old boys. I strive to make every den meeting fun and eductional. Within the Pack I plan the yearly campout. Last year I introduced planned activites at the pack campout, which by the way was a new concept for our pack. The tight grip the CC and the CM have on the pack make it difficult to change course without a lot of drama. And don't forget there are no committe meetings to offer suggestions and discuss changes. Besides with such large numbers there are no obvious signs that the pack needs a change. The demographics are such that, the population drives that their boys will have the scouting experience.

Bob, {shudder} I agree with you. The CM and CC (who are husband and wife) look around at the packed house and think they delivering a Jim-Dandy of a program. But the steady flow of motivated parents masks what is at best an average progam and at worst a minimalist approach to deleviring the program.

I did not say my pack was a success. I only said it was huge. The idea that I am putting forth is that area demographic plays a bigger part in the size of the pack than the performance of its leadership. That is my emperical experience. The pack we were in as tigers had really fun pack meetings, with dens doing skits and telling what they did the previous month. Our first pack had a well oiled committee as well. But it was based out of an older neighborhood, less wealthly and a smaller school pupil count.

Parents who want their kids to have the Scouting experience will send their kids to an underperforming pack. Parents who are less concerned about their child getting the scouting experience will not send their kids even to an over-achieving pack. Actions taken by the unit leadeship, CO, District and Council take a backseat to demographics.

I read CNYscouters opinion that the local units performance is the biggest contributor to recruitment and growth. I think demographics are much more important even bigger than the individual unit's operations. Our unit has a weak CO which offers no visible support. So weak that the District Executive mentioned to me over the summer that he would like us to get a new CO. Our committee meetings are nonexistent. We meet as a committee once a year and occasionally communicate through an email. The Den leaders are left to fend for themselves. There is no training chair or other mentoring program in which to develop the Tiger and Wolf leaders. Our pack meetings resemble boring business meeting with little or no scout activities. Actually the pack meetings are more like church on Sunday with adults getting up there and talking endlessly about various subjects with an occasional scout strolling up to get an award after his name has been called out over the loud speaker.

All this and yet out pack is huge 100+ scouts. We have five Webelos dens and about four-five dens for every rank there after. Why do we have so many? The neighborhood! Upper middle class well educated professionals. The homes are new and the subdivisions are over flowing with kids. These parents are ambitious and have set goals for their children. Scouting is a check list item they want their kids to do, along with piano lessons and sports. Based on my observations, demographics is the single biggest factor that influences a packs success.

We all have camps like that. We have one that is 70 acres of the some of the most beautiful land around. As was stated earlier, the land was donated to the scouts after the area was logged out around 1920. The parcel sits on two adjoining lakes and is in a very exclusive and fastly developing part of the county. It is now a Cub scout camp with a bigger parcel way out in the hinters land of the council acting as the boy scout camp. Money does not come into this camp to fix the washrooms or other vintage buildings. I would hate to see this centrally located site be replaced with a distant one of lesser quality.

Bob, first the post was a supposition to that of another posters comment regarding the reasons dues are higher.

The second is you are making the wrong compassion for unit size and organization a bay scout Patrol should be compared with a girls scout troop. A GS neighborhood is more like a BS Troop. So when you say troop sales compare favorably, you are comparing 50 boys with 8 girls.

Finally, the last time you started to get so worked up over every detail you had to take sabbatical for four months and resort to private messages because you could not control your own emotions during discussions. I thought that anger management period was behind us.

Our Cub Scout pack shares the same CO and number as a boy scout troop. In the two years I have been with this pack, I have only seen Boy Scouts at the cross overs. Last year none of our Webelos went into the brother unit. All choose to go to the same unit but outside of our CO sponsorship. There are no den chiefs in our 16 den pack.

Good points Madkins007. Its hard to reconcile "a scouts is thrifty" when you walk into the scout store to buy a uniform.

The friendly lady at the scout store will tell you that your scout needs matching shirt & pants. Ok! And a belt and hat hmmmmm! Also a kerchief, a slide and a pair of Socks. Patches identifying your Den, pack and Council . And a 500-page instruction book with 100+ color photos.

Ouch!

Oh and you are his den leader? Then double all the above.

Saturday I signed the same said boy up for recreational soccer at $120. This registers him and gets him a simple uniform. His coach will get small equipment bag. This will also provide the team with practice field time and one ref at the 12 saturday games.

Does x = y ?

Is scouting too expensive? Is it more expensive than comparative youth programs?

A rambling thought is that this Webelos uniform will be used over a 2 year period.

Total out the door $163.76

Just the Webelos Uniform was 107.3

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