Its Me

Kids worship independence. That's why the 17 year old kid with the Porsche is as cool as the kid with cigarettes and a skateboard. They appear to be independent. Scouting recognizes that kids want to be independent (or at least appear to be) but the road to independence through scouting is more charted. Independence through scouting is systematic and drawn out. So no matter how cool the activities in scouting are, no matter how cool the uniform is, scouts will not be seen as cool by the kids who worship independence.

Wow that's terrific. I'll take these replies back to my cubs and mention how its a life achievement.

Just curious on when you decided it wasn't important enough to mention to a potentail employer that you were an, "Eagle Scout". I can imagine that listing "Eagle Scout" on resume for your first job out of school would be seen as a character pre-qualification. But with an Engineering degree and 20 years experience does it still matter? Or do you still list, "Eagle Scout" on your resume after all these years?

What's amatter? Verbage aint doable in yous language?

A sitting president will not oppose the BSA while in office. At least not during my life time.

What will happen is the BSA will continue to be the target of very left leaning organizations which will force the BSA to draw an ever more descriptive stance on its conservative views. For example instead of presuming the BSA is religious based, the BSA will be forced to define what it means (religion-wise) to be a scout. Once established the left leaning organization then targets the definition on legal and constitutional grounds. These types of attack will continue to come, forcing the BSA to appear more conservative than it may actually be.

Eventually a candidate will emerge in the primaries and campaign against everthing conservative including the scouts. He will lose because his ultra left base will be too small to carry him.

Then the woodsman come out and kills the wolf. Or something like that.

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The program will not be effective if the boy is incurably lazy (character trait 1).

The program will not be effective if the parents provide no assistance (character trait 2)

The program will not be effective if the child has no sense of civility (character trait 3).

The child must have a sense of patriotism (character trait 4).

A scout is reverent (character trait 5).

I think it is a reasonable statement to say that BSA encourages the development of leadership skills (i.e. future leaders).

If scouting were all things to all boys then all boys would be in scouting.

Let's establish right now that I believe all dens and packs should be open to all boys. But you cannot deny that the program rings a cord with some scouts while it is a dull thud with others. To deny that the program is not targeting certain kids (characteristics) is naive. Scouting is not soccer, yet a well run soccer program could develop many of the qualities that BSA is after.

Furthermore the program has very strict requirements to continue. More strict than other developmental programs.

Again what type of kid is drawn to and succeeds in Cub Scouts?

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Those answers are good but they are too general and politically correct.

For instance a lazy kid who isn't interested in outdoors or crafts; is Cub Scouts for him?

I don't know if a kid who is uninspired by the activities of a typical den meeting can be converted.

Thus an unmotivated child would not be a good fit in the Cub Scout program.

Think of the kids in your den and describe the successful scouts. Who are they are where did they come from? Is there a commonality to the successful Cub Scouts?

Certainly BSA cannot be all things to all boys. So then we can assume that not all boys qualify. What are the qualities BSA is looking?

Are they looking for particular characteristics? Intellegence? Behavoir?

If the program is designed to shape future leaders then there must be a stock material in which to begin working with. What is that stock material?

Eamonn, thanks for your vote.

By the way, the car with the widow follows the Hearst.

I also agree with Bob White. If you are in a position where reading a compass or using GPS is the only way to get out, you are in way over your head with cubs.

If you know nothing about camping BALOO training is not going to make you an expert. Its focus was on youth protection, safety and planning.

If you are devoid of the capacity to plan a four meal, one night Den campout then you are surely lacking leadership qualities. If spending a night in the outdoors frightens the beejeebies out of you than you certainly dont have a scouting/adventurous spirit.

Accepting that Den camping is against the rules we tried to direct this debate towards why this is so. Also intertwined in this lengthy (IMHO a quality discussion) thread is whether the rule should be amended and under what pretense the rule should amended.

Leadership keeps coming up as a reoccurring buzzword. But I put forth that I am no super planner or great backwoodsman and yet I was able to plan and delivery a quality overnight experience. Why is it that so many of you feel that you could not possibly do the same?

Vote here:

The Den Campout rule should be amended to allow for a conditional Den overnighter?

YES

Looking at my schedule, I have den meetings planned up through April. Our kids finish school on May 27. Do we hold an end of the year party? Do we continue to meet every other week during the summer? Most of my boys will reach Wolf rank by the Blue & Gold banquet on April 16. I would expect nearly all to reach rank by late may or early June. Do we focus strickly on electives during the summer or do we start on our Bear requirements?

Thanks for the great comments fotoscout. The posts by Proud Eagle and Bob White infuriate me. Their pompous, self-righteous position is what kills scouting. They act like the dangers of camping are so great that one man couldn't possible organize five boys to sleep outdoors for a night. The dangers where we camped were no greater than those in my own backyard. Every kid had at least their dad and most had a mom and a dad plus a sibling. Where is this huge need for a pack committees on campouts. All youth protection policies where met. Hygeine was maintained. I have seen 7 year old birthday parties less organized then my campout. It has nothing to do with being an over-reaching den, its just not as difficult to plan, organize and execute as Bob and Proud eagle want you to believe it is.

The bonding and overall experience we had far outweighed the thought of one too few hotdogs or a boring hike. Its just not that hard or dangerous to sleep one or two nights in a tent.

(I guess it will be a while before I get to five stars)

The focus seems to be on the issue of leadership. 1) The assumption is, camping leadership at the pack level will always be superior to that of the den level. I belive that to be flase. 2) Leaders at a Pack campout will be better organzides then a Den campout. I know that to be false.

The "its in rule book so it has to be good" people focus on the very subjective idea of leadership. Instead the discusion should be on the hazards. The hazards challenges of small group camping (read den) are no greater than large group camping (read pack). In fact its the opposite. It is easier to monitor the boys in a small setting than in a large.

Well we went and I can say we had a great time. I had a Ranger lead hike in the morning followed by free time at the playground. After lunch one of the moms lead the camp in group games. Latter one of the dads lead us on a hike through his favorite trail in the park. I cooked some meals but by all means, no more than my share. I monitored the fire, settled arguments and keep the boys in reasonable order. Once there I did no more work than if another BALOO had planned and organized the event. I liked it for the reason that our den boys had to play and interact with one another. It is my hope that by having these den campouts the boys are forming genuine long-term bonds. If this had been a pack setting with 75 kids it would have been harder to get them to just play with each other. Let alone monitor and know their whereabouts at all times.

By the way, I am no longer angry. We had four boys spend the entire two nights/three days. One boy spend the second night and another boy + family spend the days with us but nights at their home. The three boys that couldn't make it all had good reasons for not coming.

By the way the boys said the pagan goat ritual was their favorite part.

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If by getting BALOO trained I am the Pack's designated campout organizer. Why would I not be qualified to organize a Den campout? If I am trained for 30-40 boys and families how can national say you are not trained for a 10 boy den? My regional council has acknowledged this and has granted us a tour permit.

Thanks for the comments fotoscout. Its not as though I am sneaking around. I had our cubmaster sign the permit application and I sent it to council stating that this was a Den campout. It was approved. Its at one of the six-seven sites listed as approved for camping in our area. Its a well known state park in our county. Our Baloo instructors absolutely said we could go den camping. Now maybe the term should be family camping as a den. No boys will come without at least one of their parents and all siblings are invited.

To the point. A two night campout may have been too much for only our second campout. The first was a pack.

I had no trouble organizing the event. The planning and the work needed does not bother me. In fact I rather enjoy trip palnning. I was just disappointed that I am getting a lower than expected turnout. But after looking at it with a good nights sleep. I will get around 60% to participate at least some during the three day event.

I sat through BALOO training and they in fact said that Dens could go camping. Hence the approved permit from council.

We are a wolf den.

Five months ago I sat through Baloo training. Four months ago I planned a two night three day Den campout. Its at a state park in our county about 25 miles from our neighborhood. With a den of ten active boys, 4 might be going and only two are doing the full two nights. I got trained, got the permit from council, reserved the site, I'll buy the food and cook it for them. I have planned the activities arranged for a ranger lead hike. I even learned some stories.

At every den meeting I have mentioned it. With every email I have discussed it. Why are they all now backing out? Why would they be in Cubscouts if they weren't interested in taking their kids camping?

Why?

Signed

an angry me.

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What I have really come to understand from this thread is that I am not an outfitter. I may purchase equipment as needed to improve the camping experience but I am not a commercial outfit. I will likely eventually get both. But I can't equip myself with the idea that I have to feed 50 people.

As for splitting the den; it will have to wait until next year. But that is the subject for another thread.

Thanks for the replies. And I agree that our den is too large, heck our pack is too large (over 100 boys) but I have very little say so in that.

Those large double burners that operate off a large propane cylinder interest me but I have yet to hind a griddle that will cover both burners.

I have two car campouts coming up this spring. We cook and eat as a den. The den has 12 boys plus siblings and parents. Not all camp but for our first campout we had 22 in our group. I have a couple of back packing stoves and most places we go allow fires.

Ok here is my question. I can either buy a Dutch oven or a propane griddle. The oven will be more for dinners and the griddle will be more for breakfasts and lunches. Which one would you get? Or would you invest in other cookware.