Its Me

jeesh Dan, we have had all these discussions before. Each time they are different. New people replying or older forum members contribute something new. These all shape and construction the discussion to where we learn something new from these "old" discussions. And its a fairly defined topic not just scouts with ADHD.

In order of importance

A nearby pack that will make weekly/monthly meetings easy.

Kids your boy likes.

One with a Cub Master

A schedule extending at least six months out.

One that Camps twice a year or more

One that does pine wood derby

Participation in Council events

Leaders with TRAINED patch on their arm

A functioning Committee

A training Chair/Leader.

One with ties to a Boy Scout Troop

My son is joining a troop where he will be in a New Scout Patrol. I am not sure if this new Patrol will need to build their own box, but I am curious as to what belongs in and the type of euipment you would chose for a new patrol box.

Ignore her. For all your council relations use a District executive. Keep this lady at arms length or better. I don't see you having many options other than keeping your distance and waiting for her to crash out of site. I haven't seen unit commisioner at one of our pack meetings or committee meeting in two years.

The schism can be seen right here in this thread 7 replies with 4 boy scout leaders blaming cub scout leaders for their losses.

Stop blaming cub scouts for ailments in the boy scout program. Boy scouts shouldn't even need a "prepared" scout. So how could we prepare them wrong?

The schism comes from frustration on the part of the boy scout leader who loses a five year scout soon after joining boy scouts. He blames the previous progam or the implentation of the previous program on that loss. The cubber camped too much and stole their magic, we camped too little and didn't prepare, we did patrols, we didn't do patrols. The best was "boy scouting isn't about fun meetings, lower your expectations cubber and get with the program".

The schism is a blame game. Stop blaming the cubbers for boy scout woes and the schism goes away.

On the camping too much theory, I don't think that is possible. Considering that the loses are as high as they are in Boy Scouts, if we limited cub scouts to camping once a year, or no camping until boy scouts, then BSA the organization would lose out on a lot of boy/youth and family bag nights. That would be a shame.

"Just when did the great Schism between Cubs and Boy Scouts occur and how do we fix it?"

I don't know when occured. Maybe its always been there. But there is a poor attitude towards each other. I say that the meetings look dull and Boy Scout leaders right back, thumping their chest on how they teach boys to be men not little childern to cut and paste. That's an insult to all cub leaders, but I suspect this is a rampant attitude within the Boy Scout leadership. That their job is more important.

How do we change this? Proper training to tame inflated egos would be a start, but more importantly the jump between cubs to boys should seem more like a step than a leap. More cub/boy interaction. The asumption that every pack has an equal troop under the same charter is certainly false for my organization. The troop and pack leadership don't talk, the C/O is invisable. Councils need to provide opportunities to mix cubs with boys.

Edited to add:

I think more Cub Scout leaders should take wood badge. In fact I would say its may be more important to take wood badge as a cub leader than as as boy scout leader. I took woodbadge when I was a bear leader I think it was the perfect time to take it. Either as a bear or as a Webelos I leader would be ideal.

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You just described our Bobcat ceremony. I don't have it in front of me but blue was for this and yellow was the sun, and orange was something else. A final mark went on the parent's nose. I never saw a parent wipe off that mark during the ceremony or meeting. They all wanted their boy and them to be seen my someone at home with the markings. This is a well received ceremony and there is no reason you should not do it.

Well, just to close this out this thread with how our ceremony went.

We used a scripted ceremony available on line in which a chief, a guide and a medicine man lead the ceremony. In this ceremony, the medicine man tells a story about Akela as a youth shooting a flaming arrow that saves a hunting party. We tweaked it here and there and added another guide. I was the medicine man and I dressed as an Indian, with a miss-match of spare costume parts from our dress-up box, a $10.00 head dress and a very real looking stone tomahawk. I had a dad beating a drum in the background. The affect on the audience and kids seemed great. Complete silence fell whenever the medicine man spoke.

With all my hype about Florida having great weather for camping in March, we had a rare front come through and it rained all day Saturday. We were lucky and were able to move the ceremony into the council hall.

Ok, I practiced my flaming arrow at least twenty times around my house. I knew the fuel of choice would be alcohol and I firmly wired wrapped the cloth to the arrow. I used an aluminum arrow but removed the tip to make it lighter. A kid's bow was used as a real bow would leave the fire behind.

During the ceremony, I did my story and when I got to the flaming arrow part we all went to the back porch of the hall to look out over the lake. Errr, errrr, errr, I couldn't open the olive jar with alcohol. The air had cooled and the condensed vapors had pulled a vacuum on the jar. EEERRR, finally I got it open. No one really noticed. Next we light the arrow tip. Shoot and poof it goes out. Luckily I had made three arrows, not knowing if I would shoot all three or what. The second arrow was lit and shot and it formed a great flaming arc. Success! No need to shoot another arrow.

Back inside, the story ends and all webelos get their patch and a custom painted arrow. Many pictures were taken with the medicine man.

Thanks for the replies.

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Too prepared?

Eagledad wrote that he lost a den due to a "been-there done-that" attitude. I am not sure if you re-visited this by speaking to boys and their parents if you would come to the same conclusion.

MY den just had their arrow of light ceremony saturday so I will comment while it is still fresh.

The tenderfoot requirement is a cubscout refresher. Now I don't have a problem with this because all new scouts will be brought to the same level. Plus, when teaching math for example, each progression is a mix of old and new stuff. But I could see where if these requirements didn't have some freshness to a scout he could get bored. Now the second class requirements looks a little fresher and the First class a little fresher still.

How did I prepare my Webelos? Beside the program requirements, Engineering, Showman, Outdoorsman.. during their Webelos I year I began to encourage the boys to sleep in one tent together and their parents in another. Out of the 14 Webelos in three dens, five did this. So 9 Webelos have never slept in a tent without their mom or dad sleeping next to them. I think this is a big jump for both the boy and his parents to overcome.

We did meal plans and kept getting the boys to do a portion of the meal. It wasn't perfect. The boys could do a task such as cook a burger, or cut an onion but even on our last campout my boys couldn't seem to put it all together, the prep, cook and clean aspect.

I liked one previous posters comments on this topic. To prepare a Webelos scout for boy scout make sure they can eat food they are not fond of, go to the bathroom in a stinky outhouse and get along without mom there to make everything right. Its more of an idependence thing than a skills thing.

Time will only tell if I properly prepared my boys for Boy Scouts. We cross the end of this month.

Is your question in regards to before they cross or after? The transition from Webelos to scout could be considered a two minute ordeal just replace his epoletts(sp), new kerchief and a hand shake.

When does the transition begin? If we say it occurs during Webelos II then as a Webelos II den leader I am just a prep school for boy scouts. I don't think so. I think the "transition" should occur after the cross and in the Boy Scout troop. Attention should be given to make the boy feel accpted amoung his new peers.

I will say that our attendance at a council organized Webelos mini-camp was beneficial. There was a lot of interaction between Boy Scouts and cubs and the parents got to see what was essentially a summer camp program.

Just to add to some background our C/O sponsors a pack and a troop. The C/O is completely removed from all involvement in the pack. The pack and the troop meet at seperate places on seperate nights and never interact. We sent no webelos to the troop last year and will likely not send any this year. I am sure there are other situations but our cubs have little interaction with boy scouts. Add, that middle school typically begins at sixth grade and the cub looks at a 13 year old as a near grown-up.

I will suggest that you encourage your senior patrol leader and all patrol leaders to address the webelos directly and as equals and as often as possible. The troop youth leadership should want them to join. The words, expressions and interactions your senior patrol leader will have with the boys will out weigh your interaction by four-fold.

The troop that did a skills day, taught by the boys to our boys was "way cool" according my son. Any activity that gets your boys and the new webelos to rub shoulders will be a good activity.

The "cut & past den" makes me chuckle. I now wonder if it would have been better had I been more of a cut and paste den leader.

Rather than address every issue brought up in three pages as to why my expectations were not met I will say this. I am looking at attending Troop #2's weekly meeting and I am looking at going on a campout with troop 4.

Thanks for all the comments.

I will say that Lisabob nailed the issues. My expectations were too high. I may have expected a derivation of a cub scout meeting (to be honest ours pack meeting aren't all that great. I did expect more spirit and life in the scouts. The scout master, no complaints a nice guy and didn't look at me as though he was sizing me up. The ASM, nice guy spent a lot of time with our Webelos.

But it really looked liked like a civic association meeting, with an opening pledge and then down to business so we can get out on time. I disagree with the poster who wrote that this is the forum we use to prepare kids for adulthood. One or two mondane meetings as a young adult prepared me to meet the challenges of boring meetings for the rest of my life. My 11 year does not need to sit through boring meetings to learn how the adult world works.

I feel for the young SPL who was running the meeting, he knew what to say and said it. He cannot be compared to an adult cubmaster who has been leading the show for a couple of years. That's not a fair comparison and he is off the hook. However, as an institution this troop had no charm.

Should this Troop be what I expect? If so I will quit looking and settle on this troop accepting that mondane meetings are the norm for weeknight Boy Scouts meetings. They are something to be endured between campouts. If the replies are that no, we sing, yell and cheer and work in some fun while training our boys, then I will hold out hope that there are trrops out there that will better meet my expectations.

We sang at woodbadge. A lot. We sing at church. We sing the national athem at sporting events. We sing school fight songs to show spirit. Even saying this, singing was just a part of my overall statement.

Are we raising future Rotarians or serving as a fun youth group?

I have seen posters on this site state their scouts were doing all sorts of neat things but the neighborhood kids still thumbed their noses at scouts. Could it be that they our weekly meetings snuff a lot of the spirit from other aspects of scouting.

I am just surprised at how mondane this troop's meeting was.

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I sincerely appreciate that lessons need to be taught before activities are under taken. For example, one most know the rules and good practices of canoeing before one actually gets in a canoe.

However, after Webelos Readyman, cub scouts summer camps and first aid taught at each rank in Cub scouts, even CPR has been previously taught to my cubbers. It's not new. The instructors did a good job. No complaints there. CPR is a serious issue and needs respect.

But that is no excuse to ommit the fun and scout spirit within scouting. More songs. For goodness sakes there isn't enough singing in this world. Jokes, or a opening remark by the scout master. An inspiring quote from a senior patrol leader. Let us yell and cheer. Put a fixture in the room that reminds us of the outdoors such as a bag night count, a totum, anything! Make me want to come and have fun.

Boy Scouters where is your passion?

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We visited our fourth troop last night and it was another low in dullness. The previous troop meeting we went to had an old man teaching the aviation merit badge. He lectured and then showed posters. I thought that was dull.

Last night we went to a different troop and watched a CPR trianing course. I think a Rotary club meeting would have been more exciting. In a church hall devoid of color, there were no patrol flags, no scout posters, no outdoor stuff anywhere. We heard no patrol yells or troop cheers and saw no presence of troop spirit. No songs, skits or any merry making. Just the business of the night. The kids sat like they were in night school.

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Heeleys are great fun. They have been around for about three years. They look like normal Rebock's but tip up the toe and you are rolling. Put your feet in-line like walking a tight rope and you are zooming along. But crashes occur and now most schools and malls have now baned them. However, I have never seen kids roll on table tops. They would never walk on a table top why would they heeley on a table top? Out of control kids playing tag (also banned at some schools) may get hurt wearing heeleys or not. I am not a big fan of ever increasing rules. Standard good conduct rules should cover most situations.

My Webelos II den is visiting a troop next week.

Over the years my den has gone from as many as nine boys down to four. Should I email those that have left cub scouting and offer that they could start new in a boy scout troop?

Any chance that these boys would return?

We are the west coast of florida. It should be around 50 at night and upper 70's during the day.

Well here is what I have learned from experimenting with flaming arrows.

A 7/16" woode dowel rod with no fletches (feathers) has a completely unpredictable trajectory when shot from a 70# compound bow. Max height for the wooden dowel 100'.

An aluminum arrow with fletches when shot straight up with a compound bow nearly disappears from sight. Estimated height ~400'

A childs recurved bow with a 20# draw will manage to get the 7/16" dowel rod about 60' of height. When shot from the child's bow the wooden dowel even without fletches has a near enough predictable trajectory.

An alchol flame burns a dull blue with some yellow. The flame does not go out when shot from the child's bow. However, the dull blue flame is not very visable as it travels.

Tiki torch lamp oil burns with a more yellow flame. On one test the flame was exstinguished when shot from the child's bow. On the second shot the tiki torch oil stayed lit.

I must say that where his scouting friends go has been a concern of mine. There are 13 Webelos crossing over from 3 different dens. Although there are different dens we have done several Webelos specific activities including two Webelos only campouts. As a group they are pretty tight. Not all are brother tight but true friendships are there. Personalities have been sorted out so that they all pretty much mix and mingle. Comfortable would be the best word to use on how all the Webelos interact.

The bulk of those crossing over will go to 3XX. The bulk of our Webelos who crossed over last year went to 3XX. So that is a plus for the eagle mill. He only knew one boy from chess in the manhunt troop but this boy was likely two grades up from my boy.

I sent my assessment report to my den families. All welcomed the report and most had the same opinion. The acception was my free spirited, very environmentally friendly family, they loved the Eagle Mill.

I am looking to make contact with two other troops in the area to arrange visits.

We have visited a total of three troops.

Troop 00X ~12 Boy,

Troop 2XX ~ 40 boys + Venture

Troop 3XX ~50 boys + Venture

Troop 00X had the fewest boys. Our vist consisted of an afternoon in a church parking lot building a tower with the Boy Scouts. The adults ran the construction and directed the boys to perform specific tasks. The Boy Scouts yelled at our Webelos and told them that once they joined the troop they could tell them to shut-up.

I asked one of the parents if they did camping, and they do about two campouts a year. Did any of the adults have wood badge traing? No that would be way too coincil-ly for them.

OK Scratch (Troop 00X)

Troop 2XX, had about 20 boys at the skills day we did with them along with two other Packs. The day we spent with them was on a Scout campground and the Boy Scouts taught the Webelos knot tying, and hatchet safety. Good stuff.

After the Scout Master addressed the audience of Webelos and parents he turned the event over to his son the senior patrol leader. Latter in the day the scout master sat down to have a scout master conference with the boys. He collected the boys and they sat on the pine needles on the ground and had a small chat.

The Scout Master said they dont work on Merit Badges too much on the campouts. Their summer camp will be out of state in the mountains of North Georgia. The scout master had a tan shirt on and blue jeans. No other adult leaders were in uniform. When asked to get dressed in uniforms the Troop 2XX Boys put on a tan shirts.

It appeared that the adults did the cooking for this event. The adults cooked the dinner and the breakfast. At night the Boy Scouts played a serious game of man hunt. An interview with the scoutmaster said they have had 6 Eagles of the last 4 years.

My boy said, dad, they are just like us. I agreed. To me it seemed like the extension of a Webelos den. The main purpose of which was monthly manhunt games at campouts. They seem to take really nice trips but achieving rank and making Eagle is really left up to the individual.

Troop 3XX, we met them at their weekly troop meeting in a church hall. At the meeting a living fossil in a tan shirt and green pants told the boys to take out pencils and paper as he was going to go over the aviation merit badge. He then lectured for about 40 minutes using charts and pictures.

Many of the adult leaders in this troop have their wood badge beads. A brother Bear from my wood badge patrol is the committee chair.

This troop turned out 7 eagles last year and hopes to get 9 this year. To get eagle we were told, we have to come to the troop meetings and outings. All the boys at the meeting wore green pants and tan shirts.

The scout Master held a short chat in a church class room. Their summer camp this year is at a council campground.

None of the Boy Scouts, including the SPL or any PL spoke to our boys. The boys did not appear to be meeting in patrols. There were no patrol flags or other indications of patrol grouping.

Assessment

If left to my boy he would pick the manhunt troop of 2XX. No pressure to achieve rank, yet all the fun parts of scouting. On the other hand Troop 3XX is an Eagle mill. Their primary goal is rank ascension and Eagle output. Troop 3XX camps and from time to time will travel out of state but their trips are more measured and there must be a purpose to the outing.

I will paint two possible scenarios. One my boys joins the manhunt group has the time of his life for two three years and drops out as his life gets busier. His commitment to academics, school activities and sports does not suffer as much as there is no expectation that he will make Eagle. The other one is where he commits to Troop 3XX and diligently works toward his Eagle. The added pressure of the Eagle will force his commitments to other activities to be scaled back. He has a better prospect of making Eagle by 16-17 years old.

What say you?

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We have had two committee meetings in three years. None this year. When we did have a committee meeting if we got half the den leaders we thought it was a good turn out.

Of course the results of this neglect is that we won't have a blue and gold this year. The Cubmaster and his wife the CC run the pack meeting and while at one time they did a good job their interest has waned. They have put three boys through this pack and I believe can't wait for their last to finish.

The Webelos leaders are pretty good. I think that after you have a couple of years under your belt you learn what needs to be done and how to get it done. You develop relationships and learn who to depend on within the pack. Just like the boys maybe even more so, leaders grow in their ability.

Ok, its now my turn in the barrel for an AOL ceremony. I like one of the on line Ceremonies where the little Akela shoots an arrow into the air to show other braves the way. Here are my questions.

I want to tell the indian story dressed as an Indian Medicine man. Too much? Disrespectful?

Tell me how to make a flaming arrow.

What gifts should the boys recieve? I saw one AOL event where they got an arrow and a framed certificate. Is this the norm?

Many posters in the Backpacker forums are former scouts. The anti-scout slant may come from encounters with scouts on the trail. Posters have nemtioned how the boys can be noisey and that all they ever get asked from a boy scout is "how far to the next...".

In general what's good for scouting is good for backpacker magazine.