Its Me

After 3 emails and a phone call the family doesn't show-up for the group shop.

We have had a Webelos campout planned since September for this weekend. It has been published and reviewed in notes and schedule updates. We have met and done a meal plan and shopping list. Tonight we go shopping with the boys to purchase the items we voted on and budgetted for. Now 11:00 AM Thursday, a scout and his dad who have been absent for over six months want to go on the campout.

Is there room? yes.

Can we accomidate? Yes we food shop tonight.

Does this parent or kid have a behavorial problem. No

Why now? His sport has ended.

Nevertheless, I feel anger towards this family just poping in after many months of no-shows. And not even a reply a week or two ago that, "we might go."

Comments?

Almost one month to the day after the event occured the boy has turned in his knife and a well written apology. The appology really hit the points that I would have hoped him to understand. He states that he is sorry for pulling the knife and that by so doing he violated the Whittling chip promise. He mentions the air potatoes and the hat incidents but he acknowledges that his reactions to these events were wrong. In general a well thought out apology. The note and knife were turned in away from the other boys and was witnessed by me, another leader and the boy's father. Soon after this the boy's gloomy mood was replaced with normal scout participation and good cheer. I bet it was a big relief for this boy to end this chapter in his life.

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

I think one could look at the drop in numbers at the Webelos level like this.

Parents assume that exposing their childern to a variety of activities rounds out the child. Thus having been in scouting for four-five years they have completed this chapter in the child's development. So you have the been-there-done-that mentality. (been a scout [check here]). Time is freed to pursue other activities.

Also if we compare scouting to sports, Boy Scout may be looked at in the same way as competitive sports program. More time, commitment, money and skills will be needed in Boy Scouts than in Cub Scouts. Only the better prepared and self driven scouts will make it in the Boy Scout program.

As much as we like to talk bravado reality often gets in the way.

Six men and one woman all trained for their rank, even four Baloo's and one woodbadge decided on this response. The boy in question is not from a strong scouting family. He is more likely to quit than to face harsh treatment. His parents voiced concerns that he was being picked on by his own pack.

If we had brought this boy up to the middle of our Pack (~100+ boys) we may have brought attention to our cause but at what cost to the individual? The group of leaders with all the facts before them agreed that this was the best avenue for the boy and the pack.

PS

This boy was not at the pack meeting tonight for our semi-annual Rocket Derby.

Well the pack leaders met tonight with the primary topic being the knife incident. Here are our decisions.

The knife and whittling chip will be discretely turned into the cub master until cross over.

The boy will re-earn his whittling chip by re-learning and teaching one of our Bear dens the safe use and handling of a knife.

The boy will write an open letter of apology to be turned into me his den leader.

One of his parents needs to be present for all scouting functions.

As for the bullying. Each den will be asked to review bullying with their den. One of the leaders will speak with her child's group psychologist to suggest an effective method for teaching anti-bullying. A skit or similar easily understood method will be used during the December pack meeting to teach the harmful effects of bullying.

The DE was consulted twice on this issue and for the most part these decisions are agreement with his recomendations.

SWScouter,

I choose the oath and law that are the requirments for Webelos scouts. The boy is a Webelos II scout.

This past weekend we attended a Cub world campout. I wore the uniform green pants, tan shirt and beads and my son wore a pack t-shirt. Maybe 10 of the 150 plus scouts worn a blue or tan shirt.

What struck me is that I was one of maybe four adults out of 70 of which many were leaders, in green & tan. The camp staff were even all in T-shirts.

In practice, we are not a uniformed organization.

By choice packs prefer kids in t-shirts.

Adults prefer to wear t-shirts.

The uniform policy is not adheard too.

The policy doesn't match the preferences of the group it was designed to serve.

A primary goal of the policy was a unifying look for acceptance.

Since the policy is ignored, the intension of a singular identity is lost.

To meet the goal of a unfiying look a new policy should be written.

The new policy should revise the uniform to one that will be worn.

The new policy should use T-shirts since this is the prefered dress for both adults and childern doing outdoor activities.

My letter to the Pack leadership

The issue to be discussed along with the Webelos Campout

The Issue Johnny Scout, with den 12, pulled out and opened the blade to his pocketknife to brandish and threatened other cub scouts with. This occurred on Sunday morning December 5, 2006 at the Cub-world campout.

The Incident,

On Sunday morning an adult from another pack brought Johnny Scout to me and said that this boy brandished a knife on other scouts while at a spot near the Baden Powel trail (the tree house tree).

During this campout Johnny Scout, was under my guardianship as his parents were not there. I removed the knife from Johnny Scout and asked a series of questions to determine if the man miss identified his intended use of the knife as a weapon. No, were the replies when I asked if he was whittling, cutting rope or otherwise using the knife as a useful tool. Johnny Scout said that he was frightened as several boys from another pack were throwing air potatoes at him and saying aim form the redhead.

At the time he was brought to me Johnny Scout, did not appear to be disheveled, nor did the man indicate that he was in a close contact fight or any fight. I saw no marks on the boy and Johnny Scout did not point out or allude to any pain he was having from air potato strikes.

There are different accounts as to how high Johnny Scout was and as such just how much peril he was in. His mother wrote that he was 12 off the ground while our own scouts remembered that Johnny Scout was just two feet off the ground.

Johnny Scout, has also admitted that he pulled out the knife the night before while chasing and rough-housing with Peter and other boys from Pack. Johnny Scout states that although he pulled out his knife on Saturday night he did not open the blade. My 13 year old daughter claims to have seen an open bladed knife during this scuffle.

Review In reviewing this matter, Johnny Scout has violated several scout laws.

- Scout Oath (or Promise) On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

- Whittling Chip: I will use my pocketknife in a safe manner at all times.

- Scout Law, A Scout is KIND. A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated I have discussed this matter with the other Webelos II leaders, our CubMaster and our BSA Council Executive.

Recomendations:

1. Each den shall address bullying at the den level. The leaders will discuss what bullying is and ask the boys to act out a bullying situation. The leaders will then hold a discussion on how to diffuse this sort of treatment.

2. Have 1-2 skits of the Bullying Skits performed at the December Pack meeting.

3. Have Johnny Scout submit his knife and whittling chip to the pack. Only after Johnny Scout has done both, re-completed his whittling chip and crossed over to Boy Scouts will he receive his knife and chip back.

4. Have Johnny Scout write an open letter of apology to scouts everywhere for brandishing a knife. The letter will be posted, without his name on our pack web site or on a scouter.com website.

5. Require that one of his parents be present at all times for all scouting activities for the remainder of his Cub Scout tenor.

As scout leaders we have a duel responsibility. First, we must assure the safety of all the boys and girls within our pack family. We must work to minimize, within our ability any harm that can come to our children. Secondly, we have the responsibility to help develop boys in need of a program that rewards good character and builds sound members of our community. A scout leader should demonstrate that he is as helpful and loyal as he expects his scouts to be.

Its Me

Webelos II Leader, Den 12,(This message has been edited by Its Me)

This is the latest letter from the mom.

"Hi again (Its Me) - Thanks for filling us in. We've had more discussions, more has been revealed. (Son) admits to taking his knife out Saturday night, but says he didn't open it. In either case, that is simply not ok! And he knows that! (Son)also says that the ones doing the throwing were not in our pack/den. He definitely felt singled out, rather than pack against pack or den against den. Thanks again. We're handling things on our end. Mom"

I wondered if he would admit to the knife incident on Saturday. I was concerned that since only my 13 year old daughter saw him pull the knife out on Saturday that he may not own up. My daughter said the knife was open. The boy says it was out but not open. hhhmmmm?

I have learned a few more things. The mom has written me and relayed a story that while 12 feet up in the tree her boy had no alternative but to pull his knife as the kids were throwing the potatoes as if pitching from a baseball mound. The boy feared that he would fall and break a limb. The story was told that the boy was in a completely desperate situation, "that the brandishing of his knife was not at all casually or hastily done. It was done wrongly but reluctantly".

I will add that when brought to me that the boy did not appear to be disheveled or have any bruises or marks that would have indicated a close contact scuffle. The man who brought him to me did not indicate that the kid was getting pummeled or that there was a fight. The boy did not point out marks or bruises where the fast pitched potatoes hit him.

From the mom's telling I believe she thought it was his own pack picking on him.

From another boy's account the boy with the knife was two feet off the ground on a fallen log. That he was called a red head and throws were directed at him. That the throws "weren't rockets". And that our pack boys were not throwing potatoes at him but the other pack.

From all accounts the adult leader walked up and took the boy by the arm and led him away. If that's true then he wasn't up in a tree. I will add that after seeing a weekend of camp activities that included a throwing game, that 7-10 year old cub scout aren't going to have bazooka arms.

Also the Saturday night incident where the pinned boy had a knife held over him was only witnessed by my 13 year old daughter. The hat, chase and pinning were all remembered and all parties agreed on how and who was involved. But either by position or miss identification only my 13 year old daughter saw the knife. My six year thinks see saw it too but that's not as reliable.

The pack leaders are meeting this Sunday and we will discuss this issue.

Darn!

The story as I learned it.

This weekend we camped at the local council cubworld. The site is 70 acres with about 20 acres left cleared for camping fields. At the edge of the wood line is a tree that in conducive to low climbing and has been labeled as the tree house. Boys gather there from various packs and play nice for the most part. But during this incident an air potato war broke out. An air potato is an invasive plant with a seed pod having the look, weight and size of a small to medium potato.

A dad with one of my Webelos II boys in tow comes up to me and says very politely, that this boy brandished an open knife in a threatening way on other boys around the tree house.

The boy says that the kids were throwing air potatoes at him. I take the boys knife and give the boy a lecture on how he should have never pulled the knife and that he should have removed himself from the situation when things got bad.

I related this story to the mom when she arrived and returned the knife to her. As they are a Buddhist family, any sort of violence is deplored. She was aghast!

I latter learned that this same boy pulled his knife on another kid the night before. The kid with the pocket knife had his hat taken by another boy in the pack. Seeing how upset the one boy was with losing his hat, four other boys joined in the chase to get the hat back. The boy with the hat was caught and as he was pinned by four other scouts the hat was released. However, as the one boy was pinned the pocket knife boy opened his knife a dangled it over the pinned boy's back and said some threatening things.

The mother of the pocket knife boy has written asking that I and the other leaders do a better job of control the bullying. I agree and will work with our pack leaders to denounce bullying.

But, how do I handle and address the issue of the knife pulling? Do I just ask that this boys whittling card be revoked?. Do I suggest that this boy may want to consider if he truly wants to be a scout?

I don't disagree that it would be better from a development stand point and an individualist stand point to have the brothers reach Boy Scouts on their own schedule. But I can understand this from the father's view; with the pack meetings on different nights, at different locations and even different charterre there will be few common occurances. Plus the Webelos I den has only one other kid in it and the leader isn't doing much to begin with.

Comparing moving up against an "ideal" webelos-I den and a perfect pack/troop relationship I would push hard for the boy to not go with his older brother. But that is not what we have. The dad travels a lot and as with most kids today both boys are in several activities. I would hate to force him to pick one boy to stay in scouting, have the older one wait a year or worse just say to both forget it.

So the younger one can cross after his arrow of light and six months after he turns ten. Unless there are several others crossing in August he will miss the new scout patrol and summer camp.

I am a Webelos II leader.

I had a dad approach me about the idea of getting his fourth grade son to complete his arrow of light before our our Webelos II dencross over in April. This way he can have his 4th and 5th grade sons cross at the same time. The younger boy wil be ten years old in February. As far as I can tell as long as his Arrow of light is complete he can cross.

First Crossing, Alexander McKenzie's Story of finding a route across North America (Canada), some 20 year before Lewis and Clark had their adventure.

I have been there for a Girl Scout day and they did a good job. I would build up to it with some space history lessons prior to going. It seemed to me that the girls really didn't know what the space race was all about.

Cape Canaveral National Seashore is a great place to camp. Beautiful islands with good fishing and great bird watching. But I don't know about any near-by big group sites. Its a national park so you may want to give them a call and I bet they will provide some suggestions.

http://www.nps.gov/cana/index.htm

Injuries/accidents:

If zero kids were hurt on campouts and events then great the report shows 0. If one kid sprained an ankle while hiking or one had a posion ivy attack during a clean up, maybe a deeep cut during a skills training event, what ever occured, report it.

It's just strikes me as funny that one kid looks at his childhood and sees that it is fleeting. The other looks at his childhood as something to overcome until he can reach adulthood.

Even at 42, adulthood looks pretty scary to me out there on the horizon. I am in no hurry to get there.

My Webelo just completed his week long day camp with a sleep out at the end. Everything went well.

My son is holding back tears as he describes his last summer camp as a Webelos. Even though I tell him that the Boy Scouts have great summer camps, its no use. The boy scout camp is miles away from the local cub scout camp is 1 mile away. Even though I tell him he can come back as a volunteer Boy Scout. Even though he likely has two more campouts in the fall at this cub scout camp, this is all no use, his spirits on down. He is growing up and he knows it.

His bud whom he shared a tent with last night and whose dad is my co-leader said, "I only went because my mom took away my gameboy (thingy) and wouldn't give it back unless I went to camp.

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

Forums such as this one are difficult venues to hold discussions. I appreciate all the effort to make your thoughts and passions come through in black ticks on a white background. Some of the replies I would have liked to have seen develop into a full fledged conversation. It's just not possible with time lags and various posts in between.

Maybe Boy Scouts is different than Webelos. I was never a scout, not one day, so I have nothing to compare it to. I will stand by my asssessment that the Webelos program is weak and does not hold the interest of the boys or their parents. And that evaluating how my son spends a large part of his "free" time is good parenting.

You people are over selling scouting to the point of exaggeration. To express that scouting is the unsurpassed program for developing youths is fictional. Its foolishness to consider that pulling him out of scouting will do irreparably harm.

My son did very well in piano. At age 6-7 he was picking it up quite well mainly playing by ear. His piano instructor thought he had real talent then she raised her rates and moved. A few trials with other instructors proved unsuccessful. One could argue that I am denying his true ambitions to play the piano.

He swims pretty well. I bet if I found a lesson plan for him and private lessons he could develop further as a swimmer. I am sure the swimming.com forum would scold me as well for pulling him out of swimming.

He has played soccer for many years and we intend to have him try out for a select or competitive team. If we dont let him play competitive soccer maybe I am denying all those wonderful opportunities to bond with other boys, travel and achieve common goals.

His mother and I spend an exceptional amount of time considering the phases of his development. To assess his time spent in any one and all his youth programs is in my opinion good parenting. To us the opportunity cost of the time spent in scout must be weighed against what is lost. In my opinion Webelos II scouting is hardly the magical rewarding program that all scouting is billed as on these forums.

To end this I will say that we will likely allow him to continue in scouts. Maybe as we finally get into Boy scouts and out of the Cub world I will see the magic. As for me, it better get a lot better in Boy Scouts for me to stay in.

By the way my favorite year as a den leader was the wolf year. The kids were great the parents were great. But five years latter still teaching the same old home safety rules, bike safety rules and assigning what amounts to be American history homework has gotten a little dull.

mn_scout wrote

"From looking at your posts from the past 4 months, this one seems to be out of the blue."

Go back far enough and you will see two of my rants on the Webelos program.

Eamonn wrote:

"So, are we talking about what is best for you or your son?"

Fair question. For me the answer is, get out. I took the den on a campout three weeks ago. A one nighter with just me, another adult leader, his wife and the boys. We had two Webelos without parents, two with and one bear cub. It had a big time feel of baby sitting. I could have used the time for some one on one with my boy.

Answering for what is best for my boy. hhhmmmm! That's a little tougher. He enjoys time with his dad but I am sure he has a good time with his buddies.

I am just looking at the Webelos II and the first two years of scouts and am wondering what the return on investment will be? Outdoors? He has that! Leadership? Not for a few more years! Friends? Scouts isn't the only place to make friends! Citizenship? His school is pretty darn good at this one.

Three meetings a month plus one weekend a month for the next 6 years or so is a big investment.

He is just finishing Webelos I. We alraedy completed 7 of the Pin requirements needed for arrow of light. My wife and three kids are advid outdoor enthusist having backapcked through Yellowstone, parts of the Appalachian trail, the Boundary waters.... I don't need the scouts to get us outdoors. If I stay for his leadership development it will be three more years of before he is elidgeable.

I am sure he would like to stay but he would be in activities 40 hours a week if he could. That's not possible with two siblings and active parents. He is already in a demanding private school, is on the chess club, plays organized youth soccer and swims after school.

Why stay when there appears to be so little return on the investment?

My boy and I fight over Boys Life when it firsts arrives. Of course he wins. I just read it a week latter. My ten year old is most interested the jokes. However, I know he reads at least some of the articles because during a converastion with some adults last week he described how one troop rode their bikes across American.