Horizon

I think the Board did a great job in a difficult situation. They boy has hopefully learned a lesson, and knows that he will have to work 3 times as hard to make up for lost time AND has now been through an inquisition BOR. That SHOULD stay with him for years, and might be one of the most important lessons of his life. He learned that you can get caught, but he also learned that there are second chances for redemption (a key message in the faith of many Scouters).

If he had instead been denied in such a way that he would never have a shot at Eagle, the lying would have been forgotten and for the rest of his life he might just remember that he was prevented from advancement. He would not hold himself responsible, just the Troop. That is not a legit response, but a natural one. This way he could be held responsible while still keeping him in Scouting. This boy NEEDS Scouting, and where better to keep working on him than in the Troop. Without this, he would have quit Scouting and the teaching opportunity would have been lost.

Sometimes our most difficult kids are the ones who need us the most.

There are some great thoughts and ideas here. I wanted to responde to the issue of having Scouts be gatekeepers to the Scoutmaster's conference, however.

I hold three different types of SMs.

First - the ambush. This is when I ambush a boy at a meeting or campout. He grabs his Scout essentials backpack (that they are required to have with them at ALL times, unless specifically told NOT to), and we sit down. I will check his book, talk about his POR (if he holds one), discuss his current merit badge work, etc. It is a way for me to ID any issues without waiting for a formal meeting. These are fun and friendly - not an inquisition.

Second - the Scout's request for help. This is when a boy comes to me with a problem. I consider that an SMC as well, and we talk about how to handle it.

Third - The SMC to prepare for the BOR. This is when I talk to the Scout about how he has fulfilled all of the necessary parts to earn the next rank. I consider my role at this time to be a mentor, not a gatekeeper. After all, if the boy goes to the BOR ill-prepared, that reflects on me as a Scoutmaster. In the same sense, the boys coming up for advancement are asked to have their Patrol Leader initial their book next to the SMC signoff and the Scout Spirit signoff. That initial says that the Patrol Leader (or SPL) agrees that the Scout knows all of the skills (for T-2-1), or has fulfilled their duty in their role. This is not to stop the Scout, it is to remind the PLs and the SPL that they too have a responsibility to the development of the Scouts in the Troop. I am trying to make my PLs and SPL feel like they have a little more responsibility than just wearing the patch, and I find that this is effective. If, at any time, I hear that an older Scout is not signing, I have a meeting with the older Scout to discuss that as well.

It all means MORE work for me, not less. At the same time, it helps instill in the Scouts holder POR that there IS an "R" in there.

Acid:

I don't consider this thread to be crap (your words) - it is an important debate. Privacy concerns are legitimate, as is the issue of indentity theft. Of course, your SSN and all financial data is already held by the big 3 reporting agencies. Your criminal record is public information. If you donate to political causes in excess of $200 that is public information. Your voting registration is public information.

What I am NOT seeing, however, is a guarantee that a non-SSN based criminal background check will be sufficiently in-depth to protect our kids. I have posted repeatedly WHY and HOW the SSN provides better data access than just name and birthdate.

As for AYSO - that is new to me that they are allowing volunteers to bypass the SSN requirement. I agree that an FBI run background check should be an appropriate replacement, and would support that proposal (cost borne by the volunteer and not the region, and it must be redone annually). It IS true that to volunteer for AYSO you can provide your SSN online through the eAYSO interface, so that your number is not on file at your region. In my region that is the ONLY way we take volunteers, since I am the one in charge of our background checks as the CVPA. I don't like having to keep hundreds of SSNs in my safe, and I do not.

I think that BSA should implement an on-line volunteer registration system and dispense with the paperwork. It will STILL take an SSN, however, to run a complete automated background check.

Consumer Check using SSN: Reveals all of the permutations of your name, all addresses, and any significant debt issues that might mean that you should not be the troop treasurer. The name and address variants help in running the subsequent criminal check.

Fingerprint scans are nice, but far from the 5 minute check that they show on TV. You can get a lot more information on people if you have a unique indentifier, and that is what the SSN has become. We might not like it, but we are now better identified by our SSN than by our actual name.

I will also state again that the BSA is far from unique in requesting this information. A quick Google finds a bill in Ohio requiring SSN based background checks for camp counselors, a .pdf application form for an earth day event requiring SSN for background checks for all parents attending, and many others.

I will restate that the American Youth Soccer Association requires SSN for the background check. Little League leaves it up to the district, but emphasizes on their website that name only search criteria limits the databases that can be checked. Middle name / initial variations can result in both false positives AND false negatives. They also do not catch it if you have changed your name. The SSN catches that.

http://www.littleleague.org/programs/childprotect/states.asp

"The search done on ChoicePoint limits the name-only search to sex offender registries in 10 states, while providing a far more thorough check that includes criminal records not found on a SOR, and utilizes the birth date and Social Security Number (when provided) to screen in additional databases. When positive results are returned in these states with name-only searches through the sex offender registry search, you are required to perform more research to determine whether the results belong to your candidate."

I would be interested in knowing how many adult volunteers are rejected by the BSA each year due to information found during the background check.

From what I can glean from a few background check services, the SSN helps you clean up the name and address list. It will pull every known address and name combination of the person associated with that particular number, including nicknames and maiden names. You then have a more complete list of names and addresses to use in the criminal portion of the background check.

AYSO = American Youth Soccer Organization (to answer a prior question). I posted their policy as a reference point, since we can all learn from the successes and failures of other youth groups. They publicly claim that the SSN allows for a more thorough background check. Others here are discussing that the FBI can do a complete check without SSN. While the FBI can, perhaps other groups can not. I do not honestly know. It may be that a check can be done without an SSN, but that it costs more. Perhaps SSN allows for an automatic check, while no SSN requires a manual check.

Criminal records across the 50 states are NOT well linked, organized, or easy to parse. Simple review the problems from the Florida election when a poorly built list of felons was used in regards to voter registration. Alternatively, you can look into the challenges that the National Background check for firearms purchases has had. Finally, the Feds are focused on felonies, but there might be some misdemeanors that we in youth groups are worried about as well. I want the best possible check that fits in Scouting's budget.

We are NOT an agent of the government, so we have the ability to be stricter than the government. That means that while I am completely in support of our nation's philosophy of letting 10 go free rather than convict just one - in my PRIVATE life (or that of my PRIVATE organization), I reserve the right to reject 10 great people rather than let one slip through. I also check the Megan's law sites regularly for my area to see if any name pops up that I was not aware of (one has in the last 5 years). We need to protect our kids - are we sure that that third-party firms that are used to run background checks can do it properly without an SSN?

Interesting debate. I think it can be summed up this way:

Cost of requiring a SSN vs. Cost of letting someone slip through into the system.

Here is the response from AYSO regarding their requirement for SSN for all volunteers:

-----------------------

Why does AYSO need the SSN in the first place? AYSO is a national organization. We secure

criminal background reports by searching court documents in county jurisdictions all across the country. These jurisdictions use a variety of personal information to identify those convicted of crimes. Unfortunately, there is no consistency as to the information used from jurisdiction to jurisdiction to identify those convicted. The expert opinions we sought and received on the matter told us unequivocally that all this information including the SS# - was necessary to ensure the viability of the background information we secure. Collecting all this information serves AYSO on two fronts. First, the accuracy of the information we receive ensures that we exclude those with the highest potential for harm to our children, and, equally important, it helps us avoid excluding a good and valuable volunteer due to mistaken identity.

-----------------------------

I was happy to see that there were few classroom badges on our list, and instead the boys are hitting the outdoors ones. The only issue that while we are situated on a lake, few signed up for water sports related badges!

I will admit that I encourage my Scouts to take the Eagle Required outdoors badges at Summer Camp (encouraged several to switch over to Camping MB, for example). My own son will take Camping and Lifesaving this year, getting him another step further along on the Trail to Eagle.

As for Monty Python, we have a Patrol named: The Knights who say Ni!

I ran into this with one of my Scouts who had held two different PORs while Life. I had personally only observed him for 2 months when I took over as SM.

Everything about his Eagle work looked good, except I had a lot of adults telling me that he accomplished nothing in his POR. I sat down for his SMC and we started talking about his POR. He was having trouble telling me what he did in the position. I asked him to come back next week with a sheet detailing his work and accomplishments. I then talked about how he would do this again and again once he entered the working world, and he would need to do something like this for his college applications. Finally I told him that he needed to be able to answer the same questions in his BORs for Eagle. It was a conference, not an inquisition after all.

He came back 2 weeks later (first time he was still a bit confused on how to write up his accomplishments). He had a sheet listing a LOT of things that he had been able to accomplish in his PORs. I told that he had done a great job, and would now Be Prepared for his BORs as well.

Some PORs like Scribe, Bugler, & Librarian look a little light when compared to Patrol Leader and Senior Patrol Leader. However, the Scouts CAN accomplish a lot in those positions. It is up to us to help the Scouts realize what they need to do to succeed.

Just giving the Boys a position description is a good start. I am developing a log for all PORs to help the boys track their work and accomplishments as well. Again, it is a skill that they will use for the rest of their life.

Isn't that what we are supposed to do as leaders?

We keep a supply of the big poles they use for holding up trees when landscaping. They are 2-3" in diameter, round poles of very splinterry wood. They look a little more real than the 2x4s, IMHO.

Check your gardening department and see what they have, you can also check with the local nursery as well.

Everyone hates the lawyers until they need one.

Our troop treasurer is an attorney who handles business contracts. Great guy, and we could not survive without him. I will echo the prior post about how a few bad apples make for a bad reputation for the field. There are plenty of poor attorneys - Assistant DAs who are lucking to make $40k in major metro areas, for example. Those guys are making real enemies while working to put away the bad guys. There are also those attorneys who take cases for nothing to help people (on my wall at home is some Native American art that was the sum total of payment a client made to a deceased attorney friend of mine. He took the case for free to protect her from the state of Alaska).

Let us go one further. My brother is one of those scum sucking evil criminal defense attorneys, specializing in DUI and drugs. I asked him how he does it.

1) In our country, you are innocent until proven guilty.

2) Everyone, no matter who they are, deserves representation.

3) The police have made enough mistakes in their world that just trusting them makes no sense.

4) If you do not like it, change the law. He only operates under the laws of the State of Colorado.

5) Blackstone: Better that 10 guilty go free than one innocent goes to prison.

6) His firm sends a sizable donation to MADD every year - they make his business possible.

Other things to remember - the media only reports when the case is filed, rarely do they report on when the case is lost. We (and I include myself in this) are influenced by the newspaper/internet initial burst of outrage, and we are rarely treated to follow-up on the final closing of the case.

Hold it - the MBAs like simple, bulleted lists (see most of my posts) where we can have enough wiggle room to do whatever we please if it makes us money (or helps the Boys in Scouting).

It is the JDs that make things so confusing!

[duck and cover]

Thanks all for the input for when I return to Cubs (I have two sons with a big spread in age).

Somewhere I picked up the "false rule" that Cub Scouts could not sleep in tents without an adult. It did not make sense to me, but once I built that (apparently wrong) rule, you can see where the confusion set in. Please note that this ASSumption was backed up by many others.

So, the allowable solution under BSA for my children of single moms who work:

1) Cub needs a designated adult who is NOT the Scout Leader - but this can be shared with another parent.

2) Cub needs to sleep in a tent with another Cub, and no adults in the tent (since, by definition, the designated adult is not their parent or guardian).

3) 3+1 rule for going to and from the campsite.

4) Tigers need not apply.

Is this accurate? Please note I am not looking for the "Right" thing to do, I am looking for the "Legal" thing to do under BSA rules (which should also BE the "Right" thing to do). Once I have established that, THEN I can work on making it the best possible situation for all of the Cub Scouts.

This confusion brought to you by the rules of the BSA, the nanny-state of 21st Century America, and my own general lack of knowledge.

I am still confused about Cub Scout Pack Camping.

OK, so G2SS says that MOST times the Cub brings a parent or Guardian, but that other times they can get away with having an assigned adult.

For being in the tent, however, the Cub can not be in the tent with only one adult who is not their parent, right? Can one adult be responsible for more than one Cub? Can the adult have their own tent and put two cubs in a tent together?

(Please note - I assume this is covered in BALOO - I am actually ASKING for someone to quote ALL of the relevant rules on this).

I took it to mean legal guardian I admit, and that was supported by the people I talked to.

I am hoping Bob White or one of our other BSA rules experts to clarify.

I will triple ditto that more problems come from misunderstood rules, rather than actual ones. However, the actual rules hurt us at the margins.

Example:

Scouts of single parents who work weekends. I hated having to tell Cub Scouts that they could not go camping since mom was working and no other family was in the area. And no, mom could not sign a legal document to allow me to take her son either. Maybe there was a way around it, but I had a lot of single parents who did not get to go camping with the Pack. Now, this was less than 5% of the Pack - hence my term regarding "at the margin."

There are probably others, but that is the one that I personally experienced as a Cubmaster.

You are correct about the NSP issue, which is also why I personally think that the NSP model is not always a good one UNLESS you have truly committed Troop Guides and Instructors assigned to the Patrol. Out of 3 Patrols of young boys, ONE had the fortune of the good Guide and the other two were sitting with boys still at the Rank of Scout 13 months later. The aforementioned Guide started a patrol and drafted the majority of the boys that he had been working with over the last 2 campouts.

What choice were the boys given when they were put into their NSP after all?

After the draft, when I gave them time for trades, the boys handled that themselves with zero input from me (I was actually staying away from the table). In the end they did their own shuffling to ensure that some obvious friendships, etc. were kept in the same patrol.

It was pretty impressive how well the boys handled that as well.

The draft was last night. I ended up with 6 patrols of mixed ages. Not a single Scout chose to go the "venture only" route, they ALL wanted to in a mixed age patrol.

We started with our standard opening ceremonies. All Scouts First Class and below went outside to decorate the church for an upcoming fundraiser, while I met with the older Scouts. The older Scouts then separated into either their existing Patrols or created new ones. Each patrol then took a table and set-up the room like a job fair.

The rest of the Troop then returned to the room and walked around the room meeting the Patrols. After around 20 minutes the younger Scouts went back outside for some Scout skills while we held the draft.

One patrol started with one pick, and they went around the room grabbing slips of paper with a photo and name of every Scout in the troop. Once all Scouts had been picked, I gave them 10 minutes for trades. They swapped a few around based on their knowledge of friendship and activity interests. The smallest patrol is 7, the largest is 9.

All Scouts then came back into the room. I held SM minute FIRST, discussing the 12 points of the Law and how they apply to Patrols and Troop operations. Each Patrol leader then read off the names of the boys in his Patrol. We then had 10 minutes for Patrol meetings to discuss names and to get to know each other.

One boy thought he was going into another Patrol (English is not his first language, and communication with him is sometimes misunderstood), but that was the only possible hiccup. We discussed the Patrol Leader's responsibility for advancement, and I announced that Patrol Leaders would give out their Patrol's advancements at the next Court of Honor.

I admit to being concerned, but it looks like the troop has new life in it, older Scouts appear to be much more engaged, and we are back on the path to the Patrol Method.

NOW I just have to figure out how to get 6 patrol boxes to the next campout! Our trailer only holds 4, and based on all of this I expect to see 6 Patrols camping on future outings.

We have two issues going on here.

First: Troop fundraising events, and what uniform is allowed for those events. Based on Bob White's post, you have to ask your Council for permission for the uniform.

Second: The use of BSA logos for money making events. You are right, you can wear your team jersey - I will be wearing my Angels shirt tonight when I go to the game. However, if I put on that Jersey and film a commercial - the Angels can sue me for the earnings. That is why television shows have to get permission to use certain logos, and why you do NOT see random logos on TV. Many companies will not allow it without payment, or without control over how it is used. If you are getting money, the owner of the trademark/copyright gets to step in.

I have shut down YouTube videos using my software product, where my product was visible in the production.

If you watch the deleted scenes from some movies, you will see blurred bits on actor clothing - that is because they never got permission to use the logo when they made that scene.

You will sometimes see athletes in commercials with a generic football shirt on, not their actual team jersey. Guess why? They do not want to have to pay money to their team or the NFL.

The BSA has the right and obligation to protect their uniform. If you are doing something for money, they have the right to come after every penny you earned doing it. This is NOT a free speech issue, it is one of copyright and trademark law.

The BSA wants their cut.

Now - the prohibition against the use of the uniform for NON-monetary events is another debate.

No offense taken, and I have no issue with the critique.

The message was for both boys and parents, and 85% of the boys were at the meeting. Much of this had already been discussed with the senior scouts, and was actually triggered by me being approached by the older scouts, including the SPL (some content is earlier in the thread in regards to that).

My vision is that of Scouting - functional patrols with boys leading - something that is missing from the troop in its current form. Several of the boys have asked for help fixing it, and had asked to start recruiting. Deeper discussions with the SPL and Scouts helped develop the framework of this plan.

I will update again after execution.

The letter is OK, but a bit long for youth in my opinion. It is also full of partial research quotes, which would drive the 25% of my parents who are actual research scientists crazy. Since one of the those scientists is also a gamer (he and I play Halo III together online sometimes), he would be one of the first to ask for the journal article that supports this.

Here is the problem - there does not appear to be much in the way of peer-reviewed research on video game addiction. There IS research on dopamine type addiction that CAN be applied to gambling, athletics, gaming, and other activities that stimulate through specific reward based activity. There appears to be a percentage of the population that has the ability to become addicted to certain types of stimuli much more than others.

For Scouts, a simple ban on electronic devices works just fine. We take away batteries on our campouts if we spot earbuds or screen glows. More Scouts are carrying cell phones today, which makes it a little more difficult, but I have found that talking to the Scouts works well. Are some of them playing in their tents after lights out? Yes they are - but at that point they are already on the campout and I can live with that.

In our house we also control through passwords, and use gaming as a risk/reward for academics. My son "forgot" some homework that he was found completing this morning, and will have his access locked out until Saturday evening. When we do this, we also have to lock up the TV as well to prevent him from just jumping to another habit.

Controlling your habits is part of the Duty to Self. To help, we also need to make sure that our adult leaders are also aware. How many of you make sure the coffee pot is brewing at dawn? Which leaders fight nicotine withdrawel on campouts? How many joke about finding ways to make it legal to have a drink on a campout? Who is desperately searching for scores on Saturday during football season? Kids are FAST to sniff out hypocrisy, and any scent of it destroys your message as well.

Some interesting information, with links is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_addiction

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060228/clark_01.shtml

Restate my comment from the other thread:

Glowsticks attached to blunt arrows fired from the sides of the stage area to cross / land near where you light up your light.

I promise - flying, glowing arrows are FUN! You just need to practice, and ensure safe angles for the shots.

For tapout:

Set up a crepe paper / blower fake fire - but do NOT turn it on.

Get your two best archers and put a glow stick on a pair of blunt arrows. When tapout starts, have them at the Right and Left of the area, and have them unmask the "burning" arrows and shoot them at a soft target behind your crepe paper fire. When the glow arrows cross the fire area, throw the power switch.

Any loss of "cool" factor by the lack of flames will be made up by the glowing arrows flying across the campsite.

I went to Tom Hale and Bob Garland in the late 70s / early 80s. They were merit badge oriented then as well - you could take 3 in the morning, have lunch and free swim, and then 2 more. After that you were free to still run around the pond at Garland on the canoes, or try to dam up the stream that went by the camp with rocks while watching for water mocks.

I remember having fun and taking outdoor merit badges.

Then again, it would nice to see the badges only held in the mornings, with the afternoons free for more activities.