Horizon

My Patrols are ALL mixed age (we distribute new Scouts rather than create NSPs).

Older boys tend to be elected, but in some cases they have elected younger Scouts as the PL as well. They boys will see who needs a POR and use that as one of their criteria ("Billy needs a POR for Star, why don't we let him be the PL for the next 6 months?")

I like getting Backpacking added, possibly to replace Cycling in that list. A Scout not knowing backpacking just seems wrong. We are (responding to the PLC request) adjusting our camping schedule to have enough backpacking trips in a year to be able to earn the Backpacking merit badge.

I like adding a new "advanced stereotypical Scout skills" category of having to earn one of the following (Pioneering, Orienteering, Wilderness Survival). Most, if not all, of our Scouts earn those three during their first year at Summer Camp anyway.

I like having the advanced medical category of E Prep and Lifesaving. I wonder if we should add a Wilderness First Aid MB to that category someday. Most of my Scouts earn E Prep, very few earn Lifesaving (my son is an exception - he did Lifesaving at summer camp, and commented that he felt that the effort needed was twice the work of E Prep).

To keep the list shorter, I would consider the following:

- Earn 2 of 3 Citizenships

- Earn either Family Life OR Personal Management

Thanks for the thread - I scored in the 70s (did not know the references for Eagle, and mentally put in the caveat about knots in required merit badges).

I would second the request for an "urban myths of the BSA" list that could be kept here. This could be a great list to distribute at Troop meetings to help show people that they need training.

Myths:

Time to earn a MB is limited to 2 years

Concurrent earning of T-2-3

Patrol camping requires 2 deep leadership

Tour permits are needed for every outing

etc.

Doing my best. There are times that I fall to Doing good enough to get by.

Obedient. I do not do well with this one at all. I have a tendency to run my own ship, and to do poorly when run by others. This cost me a military career, and keeps me on the exec team of small companies rather than working for larger firms.

"Horizon what makes you think a Troop has to kiss this kids tail end to get him to stay active? 20 people just said it doesn't matter how active one is. "

You misunderstand me.

If a Troop provides a good program, then boys will want to participate. This is the challenge that we ALL face. I have older Scouts who are not active. I have met with them and I am empowering them to design a program that THEY will want to a part of. For them, this means less car camping and more backpacking. This means more interesting campouts. This means more interesting merit badges offered. As the PLC has put this into place, I am seeing more of my older Scouts return to the fold.

You misunderstand me again.

I did not state that it does not matter how active. I stated that the BSA has a level of activity that is necessary to achieve the rank of Eagle. Based on the information that you posted, this Scout served his POR as the Senior Patrol Leader. That means that he succeeded in serving in a POR while a Life Scout, and he was active during that time. He earned his Camping Merit Badge, so he must have camped at least 20 nights. Those are the required activity levels for Eagle Scout.

That brought us to the definition of Scout Spirit (and a spun thread). You posted that this Scout also VOLUNTEERED at a firehouse. That is great. To me, that is the definition of taking Scouting Ideals (and skills for that matter) into everyday life.

This is why I posted that there must be more to this story that you are unwilling to post (which I also respect). However, based on the information given I did not see something that lept out at me as a reason to deny this Scout's advancement to the rank of Eagle Scout.

Rumor has it that our QM is going to "forget" to bring all of the tents on an upcoming campout. We will open the trailer and only find tarps and rope to make shelters.

When I was a Scout back in the late 70s / early 80s I did not have a BOR until I went up for Eagle. I was worried that my Troop had skipped a step so I found my old Handbook. Nope - Just a Scoutmaster's Conference required for rank advancement for Tenderfoot through Life. At some point the BOR was added for every rank. Why? Did we stop trusting the Scoutmaster?

Re: Skills testing. The Troop my son joined, and where I now serve as Scoutmaster, had a very strong testing culture for both the SMC and the BOR. I learned this when my son went up for Tenderfoot. He was afraid of the Scoutmaster, and his reaction to the BOR was a reflection of expecting a court martial event. He did not pass his first BOR, because he froze on the taut-line hitch. He was told to come back and show a member of the committee his mastery of that knot and THEN he would be awarded his Tenderfoot patch.

This is when I got involved in the Troop (and subsequently became the Scoutmaster). I am trying to eliminate the re-testing mentality, and I am still not in compliance with the proper BSA standards (I admit with chagrin but openness here - and it is feedback here that has helped me along that path). One promise I have made to the Committee is that I will focus on skills so that they do not have to. I am still convincing them.

Here is the funny thing about using the knots. We have minimal guy lines on our tents, so the need to tie a 2 half & tautline is not needed. Camp gadgets require that we BRING poles, because most of our campsites have no downed wood (and there are severe prescriptions against gathering it). We can only light cooking fires a few months out of the year at specific sites. Hammocks are not allowed at many campsites due to damage to trees, so no timberline hitches. This is all an interesting challenge when teaching the knots - convincing the Scouts how much they NEED to know this information. Then, that becomes the primary "Test" that a BOR wants to run, along with the 5 signs of a heart attack. I think the BORs focus on those specific bits of knowledge rather than Scout Spirit because knowledge can be easily defined, while morals and behavior become a focus for debate.

Do we need BORs? I personally think that they have a purpose, but that in some Troops they have become a barrier to advancement and a barrier to focusing on what Scouting is.

I think the BOR is already happening, but to make a point:

Scout Spirit is living as a Scout every day. This boy volunteers at a firehouse - not a bad example.

The poster commented that he has not contributed - yet he served as SPL as a Life Scout, the highest position a boy can hold.

The Scout participated in other service projects, for hours he did not need.

There must be more to this case, but based on the information presented he sounds like a Scout who did hte majority of his work through 2005 (when he served as SPL), and since then he has been less active while finishing his requirements.

If the Troop could not find a way to keep him more active, that is an issue for the Troop to face. However, activity in the Troop is not the measure of Scout Spirit.

Badge Magic is OK, but it is NOT built to last in my opinion. The biggest issue is lining up the patches with the magic perfectly. If you miss some, you get the "peeling patch" look on your uniform.

I personally use it to place patches, then I take the shirt to my tailor who does the sewing for me. That way we do not argue about patch placement.

Oh yes - I only use it for the permanent patches on my uniform shirt.

This forum has people who like to bash the 13 year-old Eagles for completing the BSA requirements in the minimum possible amount of time (I was one of those many years ago).

Here we add a new group that want to bash the 17 and 11/12 months year old completing the BSA requirements in the maximum amount of time. I have many in my current troop.

In both of these cases people would not complain if they had earned their Eagle at 15 or so WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF EFFORT AND PARTICIPATION.

I have 3 Scouts who finished in the nick of time. Thanks to adult leaders they were able to schedule SMC, Troop BOR and Council BOR within days of their 18th Birthday, and their Eagle COH will be held during the winter break from college.

They earned it, and I can not wait for the COH.

One of them was SPL 3 years ago as a Life Scout. He participates in OA, and he comes to a few meetings. We discussed his Scout Spirit during our SMC - he simply got busy with High School while finishing one merit badge (Personal Management) and delayed starting his project. While he might not have been super-active with the Troop in the last 2 years of high school, he was VERY active 3 years ago. He put some good time into the Troop, and has contributed.

Did they earn the Eagle based on the requirements laid out by the BSA?

Here is how we do it (Troop of ~40 boys).

Once the boys has recorded / gained the necessary sign-offs in his book, he sees his Patrol Leader (or another senior Scout if his PL is unavailable). The PL initials the Scout Spirit to indicate that the boy is ready for advancement. I have discussed this before on this board, and do everything I can to ensure that this is not Adding To The Requirements. I ask for this in an attempt to help the boys see their youth leaders as their partners for Advancement, and to get the youth leaders to take ownership. I have even done a Minute on the subject of "How many Scout Handbooks have your initials in them?"

The boy sends an email directly to me (or uses a form on our website which auto-generates the email) to request a SMC. We then do the SMC ASAP. I do them at Troop Meetings during the skills portion (1st choice), on Campouts (2nd choice), or during the week at my home. If I am completely swamped with SMCs, I might ask one of my ASMs to run an advancement SMC for Tenderfoot and 2nd Class. I only do that in situations where my availability is becoming a barrier to advancement.

"Re-testing"

Our troop was strong in the "re-testing" model when I became SM. I told them that SMCs and BORs had a reputation as the equivalent of a Captain's Mast in the Navy (which I have had the unfortunate experience of being on the receiving end). They told me that they had done that because many boys were coming up for advancement without actually knowing their skills (a lot a quickie sign-offs apparently). I told them that I would fix the training, and in return they needed to change the BORs to be in compliance with Scouting.

I sometimes ask a boy to teach me to tie a knot, and will work with him during the SMC until he can teach it to me. One of my patrol leaders sends his members to me with a "knot stick" - the stick has all of the knots for that particular rank tied to it. The stick was done by the Scout under the guidance of the PL, and I know that I do not need to worry about the Scout's skills. I talk to them about all achievements (What did you cook for the meal? What was your favorite activity from the list? How would you know if I was having a heart attack? Did we follow the safe swimming rules at the lake?). However, anything they are unsure of I then teach them during the SMC.

You are doing the right thing in running the SMCs, but you might hit a buzzsaw at the BOR level. I started by requesting a meeting of the Advancement Committee so that I could talk to them about how we work together. Before the meeting I sent everyone the online materials regarding Advancement from the main website (I got the link from Bob White). That helped set the stage for our conversation, since I turned everything back to the Scouting materials when a question came up ("Lets see what the BSA says before we discuss this.")

You could print in China, but then deal with shipping costs. If you shift to commercial strength digital printing, there is no longer a value to having large vs. short runs.

What would be great would be to provide local offices with both the ability to get bound books from National, or to be able to download the electronic files and get books printed locally if you have a good printer with the right press.

I could see asking my local Canon or HP sales office to do some ondemand donations of certain related books. For example, this fall my Troop has a counselor who is going to reach a 3 MB course covering Personal Fitness, Sports and Athletics. If we have the electronic files, we could have all three printed in flat spine bound versions for the Scouts taking the class, and it might be cheaper since only one cover would be needed.

I want to toss in a thanks to those who add so much content to the discussion.

Bob White - one reason some of us ask for more specific comments or clarification from National is when we run into issues at our Council office.

For example, I just reviewed one of my Eagle candidates project books as part of our Scoutmaster's Conference. He had no less than 20 tour permits filed for when he was building some furniture for a local shelter.

Now, if the Eagle Project is outside of the sphere of Scouting, does he need a tour permit filed?

jimster - you might be in my troop!

Our COH's prior to me becoming Scoutmaster were organized and run by the adults. I have been working on putting in more of a Patrol methodology into the Troop, and trying to make the Troop more boy led.

My Advancement Chair puts together all records of achievements. A Communications MB candidate is the MC (we actually do 2 MCs). They boys write the agenda, and our Committee Secretary prints the pamphlets for the COH.

To try to get the Patrol Leaders to "own" the development of their Scouts:

- Patrol Leaders award MBs to their patrols.

- SPL awards MBs to Patrol Leaders.

- Rank Advancements are announced by Star & Above Scouts, given by the Patrol Leader, and the Parents are up on stage.

- Eagle Palms come from the Scoutmaster.

Opening and closing remarks come from adult leaders (including my Scoutmaster's minute).

So, the COH is boy run with adult supervision. It is not as smooth as the completely Adult run system, but the first one went off very well I think.

Den Chief is not only a POR, I consider it a leadership position as well. I would be more concerned about a boy advancing to Eagle who had never held anything other than Librarian and Bugler if I were to question the POR list.

However, BSA requires a POR, not a leadership role. In truth, not all boys are made to be Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader or Assistant Patrol Leader. The Troop needs boys at several positions, and Den Chief is a crucial one.

Random thoughts:

"No plan survives contact with the enemy" - I wonder what happens in these detailed instances when things change? In the 2 months since securing donation pledges, the donor changes their mind after waiting so long for DAC approval. Does the boy have to file a form 17-a-3 to indicate a new funding source?

These detailed plan requirements remind me once again why the military and I had a parting of the ways many years ago.

Are we going to require .ppt presentations to accompany the .doc document that is backed up by the MS Project file showing timelines and dependencies? Should our MBC for Family Life And Personal Management now require an equivalent planning document for the project related requirements?

When did leadership and service become the ability to file hundred page planning documents?

The city should worry about the safety aspects (hence the insurance policy).

An independent group should provide an exam program, allowing guides to be "certified local history nuts" or somesuch designation. With appropriate work and marketing, that accreditation becomes a badge of honor and tourists won't want to use anyone else.

Someone mention college accreditation. That is done by private groups, not the government. Business Schools are accredited by the AACSB, for example. That is NOT a government agency. Medical Schools are accredited by a group that is under the AMA (specifics lost to me at this time). There are several college accreditation agencies, some better than others. Some are not accepted by graduate schools (we would not accept Devry or ITT Tech - they did not possess accreditation from a recognized agency).

Disposables are certainly refillable - and that is fine. We just decided as a troop (PLC decided it awhile ago) to "outlaw" bottled water on campouts after one particular trip where there were multiple bags of plastic bottles at the end. One of the boys had read the Wired article on bottled water and brought it up at the PLC meeting. They voted to prohibit bottled water and only reuse containers.

Just for levity - we sometimes have a food check to see who has the worst bit of emergency rations in their bag (usually a crushed to powder and stale granola bar of some sort). One of my Scouts always goes for a powerbar in a flavor he does not like. "That way it is good to eat in an emergency, but I won't eat it just because I want a snack."

Gunny (and John) - apologies. I probably should have done what I tell the Scouts when angered. Stop. Pause. Think if this is REALLY something to take offense from.

Accepted and offered in kind.

What I meant was that if a Scout regularly is not Prepared (forgot his sleeping bag, not wearing his uniform, doesn't have his handbook), we might talk about methods to help ensure that they are prepared. The Go bag is one of the best ways to help ensure that you are prepared, so we use it.

We don't keep a log, we don't have a points system, or anything like that. On review, I can see where you might get that impression (durned internet - we need video conferencing for some of the debates around here).

There is enough in the steps to advancement already, I agree that we don't need to add any. However, I worry that in the rush to get sign-offs and merit badges we sometimes forget the core ideals - and Be Prepared is one of them.

This is one of those conversations where people keep on adding their own bias onto my words.

To be clear - no boys is denied advancement that he earns. No requirements have been added. We have take a simple motto, "Be Prepared," and put it into action. Tell me - what do YOU tell boys to bring to a Troop meeting, a patrol meeting, a day hike, a service project, or a campout. How do you prepare for an earthquake, a flat tire, or splinter (had a splinter last night - pulled by use of the tweezers in one boy's bag. He feels proud, and we didn't even have to head to the troop first aid kit). There are basic items that can always come in handy, and the Boy Scouts have provided a great list.

For this I catch hell? Color me rather confused (and a bit angry - but this is the net, and inflection does not carry well. I will edit my comments to reduce the amount of vitriol I feel is warranted).

John is implying that my youth leaders are somehow sub-par because they teach Scout skills from items found in the bags. That is insulting, to say the least. My youth leaders ALSO carry the bags, and use their ropes to teach knots, their compasses to teach map & compass, etc. We had someone pull into the church lot last night a bit lost. One boy carries the local map in his bag, and pulled it out to give directions. You never know when you might find yourself with a spare 5 minutes to teach - why not have the tools available to do so.

Sorry, I am not going to apologize or back down from actually applying the Boy Scout Motto using a list from the Boy Scout handbook.

We are pretty successful (>70% have their bags at any point in time - about the same percent for complete uniform). They always have it at the Rank Advancement SMC and BOR, but that is because they now consider it to be part of their standard kit for a review (Complete Uniform with Sash and Hat, prior rank cards, etc.). We found that the luggage tags are helping a lot, since it makes it easier to run down the list and check the bag contents.

It is not used as a harassment tool ("Hey - where is your bag!?!") but as a gentle "Be Prepared" reminder. All of the items find value on a regular basis during meetings, campouts and other outings.

Example: I see a Scout who is working on First Class arrive early to a meeting. I might sit down with him and offer to practice the bowline with him. If he says, "I don't have any rope, can you go unlock the Troop trailer?" I reply, "First let's check your essentials bag and use that rope." If he doesn't have it, he realizes that he should, and we use mine. Nothing else is said, but the boy has now seen a reason for the kit and has a better chance of remembering it next time.

Example: A Scout cuts himself. The first statement out of my Scouts is usually, "who has their essentials kit? Get out your First Aid kit!" Immediately all of those withOUT a kit have a reminder that they should carry it with them.

At a recent COH a Scout discussed Be Prepared with the parents, and then quizzed them to see how many of THEM had an earthquake kit in their car (we are in California). Very few did, and he smiled and pointed out that the Essentials kit that the Scouts carry is a great personal earthquake kit if you get stuck on the highway for a few hours.

The 10 outdoor essentials are only a portion of the packing list for a campout. Most of them are good for impromptu day hikes, service projects, trail building days, or practicing Scout skills. I carry them myself as the SM to provide the example.

This bag is not a huge backpack, it is a school day bag. Most of the boys just shove that bag INTO their backpack when they go camping, knowing that the essentials are already covered.

Be Prepared.

If he doesn't have it at a meeting, then his book can't be signed (unless he brought his book separately). If he doesn't have rope, he has to borrow to practice knots. If he doesn't have his First Aid kit, it is difficult to practice First Aid.

I counsel Scouts to Be Prepared. I have used the Boy Scout Handbook to DEFINE what it is to Be Prepared. I don't see that I am in any way adding requirements by asking Scouts to show that they follow the Scout Motto.

If a Scout is regularly NOT prepared, we will discuss that at the SMC and I am sure that the BOR will discuss it as well.

Here is how we cover this at our Troop. The BSA Handbook has a list of the Outdoor Essentials:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Outdoor_Essentials

Knife

First Aid Kit

Spare clothing

Rain Gear

Flashlight

Trail Food / Emergency rations

Water (in our Troop no disposable water bottles are allowed - must be a refillable type)

Matches

Sun protection

Map & Compass

We tell the boys to take a napsack (school backpacks are the best) and load it with all of this. We also tell them to add their BSA Handbook, 6 feet of rope, and a notepad and paper. We give them a laminated luggage tag with their current Scout ID card on one side and this list on the other side to check it, and to attach to the bag.

We ask the boys to bring this pack to every Scout event unless specifically told not to. This helps teach Be Prepared. At any time a Scout on the Trail to First Class can work on knots or First Aid. They can get their Book signed off. They can take notes for a MB class. They can bandage a cut.

Simply put, a nice pack to use to ensure that they are prepared.

My son is working on Emergency Prepardness MB right now. One of the requirements is the Emergency kit. He went to his MB counselor this morning with two bags - his Essentials pack AND the additional items needed.

We were at a pool and several boys wanted to do the 30 foot line rescue. 6 of them pulled the rope from their packs, tied it together to make a 30+ foot line. We then did the resue work, and they all had their handbooks for the sign off as well.