Horizon

Give a boy a campfire and he is warm for the night. Let him burn his own fingers and his learns his own safety lessons with fewer words from you.

Update: I just sent the following message to my troop (spot the Beavah translated lines!):

At last night's troop meeting we announced that on Monday, April 21st the troop meeting will focus on patrol organization. I wanted to reiterate the plans and reasoning.

Boy Scouting works best when the boys lead, and the adults provide guidance. On recent campouts I have observed that the most successful camping occurs when older, experienced Scouts are actively engaged in helping younger Scouts develop skills and good habits. When this occurs, the older Scouts learn to lead and teach, and the younger Scouts benefit from a youth mentor. Unfortunately, unless the older Scouts are actively assigned to a particular Patrol, some of the younger Scouts get missed. During Camporee we saw how well the Stag Patrol (our recently-bridged Webelos Scouts) did under the guidance of xxx and yyy. Last weekend we could observe the same positive camping with zzz and the boys that camped with him, and with the "senior scout" led hike.

The current troop roster can be factored into 4 groups:

- Active Senior (Star and above) Scouts

- Semi-Active older Scouts (typically Life)

- Active Scouts close to or at First Class who have been with the Troop for 13+ months

- Active New Scouts who bridged over this year.

The rules are simple:

* No Scout will be left out, no feeling of "last one picked," and a "good fit" for each patrol (friends, personalities, interests, etc.).

* A reasonable effort to make sure each patrol is "viable" - has enough guys who participate regularly, and has enough range of experience to have both growing leaders and younger guys for them to lead.

* The optimal patrol size is 8. I do not want to see a patrol with less than 6 active, committed Scouts, or more than 10.

How we will manage this (it WILL be chaotic):

First - I would like to know which of the older Scouts will commit to actively being involved in a mixed-age patrol. Those Scouts will be the backbones of the new patrols. They can use existing Patrol names and traditions, or create new ones. These Scouts will serve as Patrol Leaders, Instructors and Guides for their Patrol. They will be responsible for the training, advancement and development of the Scouts in their Patrol. Over time, the Scouts they train will become the new Patrol Leaders, Instructors and Guides - continuing the tradition.

Second - I would like to know which of the older Scouts would prefer to be part of a Venture Patrol that will NOT have younger Scouts assigned directly to it. This Patrol will be seen as the model on campouts and at Camporee, and will be where we will draw individual Instructors or Guides from during certain situations. This is NOT the only group that will engage in Venture activities, those will still be open to all eligible. However, it is admitting that some Scouts are not interested in being a member of a mixed-age Patrol.

From there I will ask the Venture Patrol (to be formally named at the meeting) to meet with the younger Scouts and work on some Scout Skills, while the remaining older Scouts stay with me to set up the room. Each group of older Scouts that are going to be either creating a new Patrol or continuing an existing one will have a station in the room. They will then get to talk to all of the younger Scouts as they make their way around the room, getting to know you as well.

At the end of this the Active Senior Scouts will sit down and hold a private discussion and draft, run by the SPL and with only the ScoutMaster in attendance. No notes will be kept, and all comments will be strictly in accordance with the Scout Oath and Law. The Patrols will discuss the Scouts and where they best fit, and build out a Patrol roster. The Patrol rosters should have a mix of boys from the 3 active brackets - not all First Class, and the our newly bridged Scouts spread out over the Troop. Any Scouts not in attendance will be placed as well, where appropriate.

We will then invite the Scouts back in to join their new Patrols. The Troop will be purchasing flag stands for the Patrol Flags for during meetings, and Patrol competition will kick off with the May Campout.

I invite comments or feedback, and I know that this will be an interesting meeting.

Regards,

[Horizon]

I am trying to get a good listing of sights here in Southern California where I can separate my patrols safely.

Our toughest issue is reservations are required at a lot of the parks, or you run into 1st come, 1st served areas. We spent a little over $200 on reservations for a local spot for my troop over the weekend. I could have booked multiple group camping areas, but then I have to raise the fee to go camping. I do plan on bringing that up at the parent's meeting.

We also have issues in some of the campgrounds around here of safety from other campers. When we hit the large sites, we have been neighbors to some large groups of folks treating the woods as their favorite place to bring stereos and multiple cases of alcohol. I am working on familiarizing myself with enough of the local sites so that I can make the best possible camping situation for the boys, where they can separate safely.

The other key task is turning the troop into more of a backpacking group for at least 1/3 of the campouts. Getting boys into backpacks with camping stoves is important, and that is going to be the focus of the next few meetings.

Here is how we were able to handle BP camping as a Mega-Troop:

We were in the MidWest, and there are some great large campsites out there. We hit farmer's fallow fields, took over the entire council camp (the council had 3-4 camps as I recall), and a few other areas. I am remembering this from the eyes of a boy looking back - not as the leader. It was almost a contest among some patrols to see how far away you could get!

Looking back at my earlier post - we may have missed the exact mark on 100 yards / 300 feet with some of the patrols admittedly. However, I remember we were always far enough away from each other that you did not really hear the other patrols, and we really felt like it was patrol camping.

I just returned from my current troop campout (now as SM). I am in Southern California, which makes it a little harder to get patrol campsites separate (without blowing the budget). I was able to get the 4 patrols who camped to act as separate patrols - for the first time in over a year according to some of the older scouts. One patrol was even willing to haul their patrol box 250 feet so that they could have a nice private site.

I was a member of a mega-troop, and now am SM of a troop of 40+ boys on the rolls.

The Mega Troop:

- SPL and his staff camped as a separate patrol. There were plenty of real PORs in the mega-troop: e.g. 2 boys serving as Chaplain, A quartermaster with 2 assistants, ASPLs with specific roles of responsibility, etc. The SPL would pull from all patrols to keep from diluting one. As I recall the SPL's staff held at least 10 boys.

- We had 8-10 patrols of 8-14 boys in each. We followed BP camping (300 feet), and with our size you could get as far away from the "men" as you wanted to. The Scoutmaster would hike at least a mile going from patrol site to patrol site during campouts!

- When we went to summer camp, we took over 3/4 of the camp. This probably reduced some of the contact that I would have had normally with other troops.

- That many boys meant a LOT of good adult volunteers available at all times. Looking back, the SM had a deep reservoir of talent to draw on, something that I struggle with at my current troop.

There is a place for all of this. Where I am now we have a troop that limits how many boys they will accept, to keep to a certain number. That type of exclusion bothers me, and I have stated that I will take ANY boy into my troop who wants to join, and that we will find room for him.

If my troop grows to a mega-troop, then I must be doing something right. If I can not get boys to join, then I must be doing something wrong. If I choose to slow down the recruiting at times to keep things running as smoothly as possible, that is fine too.

t4eagle137:

- Project: I will put my Eagle project up against others. My meetings with the City Council. The budgeting. They use of 6 other Scouts to achieve my goals. The finished project still visible today over 30 years later.

- Learning: I can tell you how I earned each of my merit badges. I still have many of the books, and compare them to the ones my son uses.

- Leadership: I can tell you about being APL, then starting my own patrol. Serving as Troop Chaplain. Serving as ASPL.

I understand your comments, but at the same time I wonder. If we don't think that Scouts are capable of leadership positions at 13, then change the rules. Patrol Leaders must be 15. SPL must be 16. Any POR must have someone 14+ years old. The truth is that there are Scouts who are leaders at a young age. They can serve early, and EARN their Eagle by 13 if they so choose.

You claim I do not have the rank? Fine - I raise and call. What do you need to see to accept that I EARNED the Eagle knot (at age 13 - a few weeks before my 14th birthday) that now sits on my shirt as Scoutmaster?

Thanks for all of the comments - to provide a bit more background:

The patrol that approached me is losing two of their 7, and wanted to replace to keep the patrol at the right size. They started talking to a couple of the boys in my more successful new scout patrol (13 months), and if they pulled those two out they would end up putting THAT patrol in a bad way. I asked them to hold off a bit while I thought about it. At PLC we discussed it more and I told them of my concerns and they understood. Another one of my older patrols joined the conversation and love the idea of bringing young scouts into THEIR group as well, to rebuild a patrol that has a great name and history as well.

All of the overtures have come from Scouts who WANT to train the younger Scouts. However, as I try to implement more of Patrol method, I can either go the Guide/Instructor route for training the younger Scouts, or instead put younger Scouts into mixed age patrols.

As to the performance of my younger scout patrols: 1 of them has done well, thanks to a couple of great natural leaders. That patrol also benefitted from having two dads around who understand Scouting, and gave their sons pointers. The 2nd one has done OK at best. My true New Scout Patrol was started with two older Scouts assigned as Patrol leaders. They came out of camporee doing well, and are on their way to rank advancement.

I am still thinking about the mechanics of how patrol recruiting might work, to ensure quality patrols and to keep certain scouts from ending up on the sidelines.

First, our current organization:

1 venture patrol

3 older scout patrols

2 younger scout patrols (New Scout Patrols after 13 months)

1 New scout patrol (recently bridged Webelos)

One of my older scout patrols has expressed interest in recruiting some of the younger scouts, so that the patrol might live on after some of them graduate high school. In essence, create a legacy patrol. I told them that I support the concept (that is how my old troop did it). However, I did not want to see them cherry pick a few boys, leaving some of the younger scout patrols weak. I also know that there are a few boys that would get left in a patrol of 1 if this was poorly managed.

I was considering getting together with the SPL and the patrol leaders to discuss how something like this might happen. It could be a draft, or a submitted list, or other such set-up. Patrol leaders could give me their choices, and I would respond with final patrol assignments. I could ignore it all and stick to the existing patrols, and let patrols simply age out into obscurity over time.

I appreciate any insight and input from the forum.

I have had a couple of the LEDs - happy with them. Now I want to mention another one:

http://www.bogolight.com/

This is an LED light with built in solar for charging. Leave it in the sun, and you are good to go with light. The price is higher, but in exchange for every light you buy they send one to Africa (and other places where a good source of light is needed).

My son carries his in his Scout Essentials, and we never worry about battery life. If it is dead on Friday, he can simple charge the battery on the campout by leaving it outside.

I have had a couple of the LEDs - happy with them. Now I want to mention another one:

http://www.bogolight.com/

This is an LED light with built in solar for charging. Leave it in the sun, and you are good to go with light. The price is higher, but in exchange for every light you buy they send one to Africa (and other places where a good source of light is needed).

My son carries his in his Scout Essentials, and we never worry about battery life. If it is dead on Friday, he can simple charge the battery on the campout by leaving it outside.

My troop suffered from a similar problem. After observing for a year, I am now the Scoutmaster trying to fix it.

- Every campout was getting provisional patrols.

- The patrol boxes are marked with very old patrol names, since nobody "owned one" and they were just issued a new patrol box for every campout.

- No patrol flags are used EXCEPT at camporee.

- Patrols die out. Once they are made, they exist until the last member leaves the troop. This gives us patrols of 1-3 Life scouts working on eagle, a New Scout Patrol, and 3 decent patrols.

What I have done so far:

1) No more provisional patrols. We do allow patrols to take guests, but the patrol with the members is the patrol camping, with a guest from another patrol.

2) We just picked up 8 Scouts. After camporee, at least 2 of them will transfer immediately to a regular patrol, which will bring that patrol up to 9.

3) Patrols will be encouraged to build up to 10. Based on observation, 10 gives us 6+ on a campout.

4) Two older scouts have been assigned to the New Scout patrol as their PL and APL. They have a challenge to get the new Scouts trained in Scout skills (with a reward).

5) I will be looking at our older semi-active patrols to see what can be done with them.

6) Patrol flags will now be required at troop meetings.

I am going to have to do a lot of work to clean up the troop organization. Luckily I have some older Scouts interested in helping, a newly energized committee, and a desire to light some fires. I also have had two good years of recruiting, and next year is already set up for victory as well. It will take a while, and it also requires keeping a positive attitude. Everything I have done has been met with a comment of, "we tried that and it did not work." My response has been to smile and state that I want to give it a new try.

Class of 1983, Indian Nations Council. Incoming Scoutmaster out West now.

A fair amount of basic training is now online, which helps get people partially trained. While online training is far from perfect or optimal, it beats having NO training. I would love to see BSA get more modules delivered in an online format for those of us who are constantly scrambling for a free weekend or evening.

http://olc.scouting.org/

As for mandatory...

I am a trained soccer coach with AYSO (I hold my Advanced certification). To get there I had to take 3 courses:

U12 training (around 10 hours), Intermediate training (12 hours) and Advanced (15 hours). I was not allowed to take a team to the sectional AYSO plus tourney without completing all of those hours. That is how they forced us to get it done - we could coach, but not tourney play without Advanced certification.

Now, I don't know how BSA would do this (make IOLS like Baloo for campouts? Require a trained SM/ASM to go camping?).

Training is a double edged sword. It helps the leader, but it can create a significant barrier to some of our VOLUNTEERS. When a volunteer is trying to help and they are told that they can not do something without the required training, you risk losing the volunteer. You can also risk creating a good old boys club of trained vs. not-trained.

My two tent stakes of opinion.

Beavar82: The 7 part troop meeting includes 15-20 minutes (at least) for skills. For younger Scouts, I see that as working towards the skills that they need to demonstrate for T-2-1. For older Scouts, that can be the skills they learn as part of a merit badge. The entire troop meeting should not be a merit badge class, I agree completely. However, when I have ASMs who can teach Merit badges, why not have them hold small sessions during the skills training?

BasementDweller: You say that you earned merit badges at summer camp. You didn't request those MBCs, they were made available to you. Do you consider those badges to be less earned than the ones that you earned by calling the Council?

We go with 3 stages of the race:

Speed trial, computer tracked, each car goes 3 times and uses its best score

Shuffle Puck style - the boy pushes his car, and gets points for the closer to the line.

Jump (aka the wheel whacker). The car drops off of a ramp and is measured for distance cleared.

These 3 events added together determine the over all winner.

Awards given:

Best SCOUT design (with multiple judges who are told to ignore cars obviously created by parents, or from pre-built kits).

Fastest car in the den and pack

Overall champ

It helps that we find it easier to pay a local guy to run the entire event, rather than rent a track.

How available should MB Counselors be? As I said, I had them easily available at all troop meetings and at all campouts. We still had to do the work (including discussion, demonstration, etc.).

Is part of every badge having to call someone at the district office to find the MB Counselor for badge x?

5 scouts at the last PLC asked for a Physical Fitness MB class to be held so that they could earn the badge. By making that available, am I cheating them? Should they be told that they need to call the Council office?

I don't understand how having a list of counselors, and having them available at troop meetings, is cheating the Scouts of part of their education - as long as you don't give credit for just sitting in the class.

I was a 13 year-old Eagle Scout (I turned 14 a few weeks after my COH).

I was a member of the "Eagle Factory" that a poster referenced above. We did not call it an Eagle Factory at the time, but after years of insults delivered by others - the troop decided to take the term and make it their own.

I can walk you through my 25 year-old merit badge sash and tell you what I did for each badge.

Here is how they did it:

1) It was a boy run troop. Every meeting started with the SPL, announcements, and then split to advancement classes. After class was patrol meetings, then the Scoutmaster's minutre and finally the closing ceremony.

2) Skill Awards were taught by Eagles only (yes, it was in the day when it was skill awards that got you to 1st class). That is where those Eagles went - they became instructors for skill awards.

3) Merit badge Counselors were available at every meeting for all core badges.

4) Merit badge Counselors were available at every campout.

5) The summer camp schedule was always packed as well. I earned 5 merit badges at every summer camp.

6) There were enough boys working on their Eagle project that there were always opportunties to earn service hours.

7) The SPL had a large enough staff to camp as a separate patrol (and build the model campsite every campout).

None of this was paper Eagle - it simply was a troop where resources were made available to the boys. It helped that there was critical mass - enough adult volunteers to staff the classes and enough boys to fill them.

I am now an Asst. Scoutmaster (and incoming SM). I will model my time based on what I had as a scout. 13-14 might be too fast for some, but at the same time if you offer boys the opportunities - they will take them. That is not leading them to the water - it is providing the water.