Horizon

Monkey Tamer: It will be hard to measure. I know of a few Eagles with young sons who will now enroll their boys once eligible, but will never necessarily admit that was why they held off. I was one of those people fighting against the system. I did it through letters and communication at the Council and National level, plus conversations with the head of the Presbyterian Church USA (one of the Top 10 charter orgs who allows gays and lesbians). Many times I was told by people here to love it or leave it, but I stuck it out hoping and pushing for local control someday. People he

Environment is higher on the profile, making our LNT philosophy critical. Service has been required at many schools, so our service requirements work. Outdoors has become adventure, and is celebrated. We should own this. So those 3 are MORE relevant now. Our local REI has several Eagles working there, and i would love to see a better partnership with REI as well. REI does a ton of outdoors training, and offers wilderness first aid regularly as well. Patriotism is still important. My Pack runs the September 11th associated Patriot Day morning assembly every year at our local publi

Terry: I found this site when looking for ideas about running my Troop - and it still serves that purpose well. I regularly get great ideas, links and directions from the postings of others. As to the I&P forum - having a public place to speak your mind helps. We do NOT want to the issue to be hidden, but rather to be debated. Let people declare that their unit and CO will hold one position, and others will hold another. I think that this is great step forward, and the market will decide over time. In the meantime, one more distraction is gone from running a great program an

Double post(This message has been edited by Horizon)

So IF this happens, we can finally see how many units leave (I doubt many, since they will still control their own membership rules) and how many units are created (a few, probably matching the ones that leave unless a major charter group leaves). If I charter a new unit at my church, how would you even know if someone associated is gay if we met up at Camporee or Summer Camp?

If this passes I will finally be able to have our church youth group registered as a Crew. Wahoo!

The BSA put us in this by saying that gays aren't moral. That is a value judgement. Saying that we are religious organization, and therefore do not accept atheists is not a value judgement. Saying that we are an organization that helps boys become men, so girls are not allowed, is not a value judgement. But saying that you can not be a leader if you are gay because that means you are immoral - that is a value judgement.

My issue is the accusation that the BSA is the last bastion. There are plenty of churches out there with the same attitude. I don't know other private clubs with similar membership issues, but I would not be surprised to find them. The BSA simply reflects the older, more conservative churches that make up a percentage of the charter partners. We are not a lone voice, we are joined by others. And we should change (but that has been debated already).

I remember when this first bubbled up - there was a thread about it. I don't think that we ever found a cite for the claim that he does not follow "Duty to God" though (happy to be corrected on that part). Is he refused for being gay, or refused for being an atheist?

1981 we had the Oak Ridge Boys. Our unit from Oklahoma loved it (I still associate their song "Elvira" with Scouting). Not sure if some of the other units were nearly as appreciative.

The only control / regulation I would support would be putting more money towards the national instant background check system. This would NOT have done anything for CT, but simply having the best possible instant check system for firearms ownership eligibility would be good. I have also felt that could also be used for checking voting eligibility. But the firearms themselves are fine.

I will echo some of what Fred wrote. When I counsel a Cit badge (Nation or World) to younger Scout - it is fun going through it all. If I get a high schooler, I am really just stamping out signatures since they have taken the courses. This is part of my issue with the schoolwork badges personally. I love counseling Personal Management, and every time I teach the boys to build a spreadsheet to show the impact of compound interest on both debt and investments. It is also a tough badge to teach around here, because most kids I counsel are not allowed to take a job (their parental driven focu

A Scoutmaster Conference does not grant a rank, even if you sign off. It takes a BOR to grant a rank. If this kid is registered in your unit then you can give him an SMC. You don't have to set up a BOR - that is up to your committee to do that. Use the SMC to help the lad understand his situation, and how it came to be. You find out something interesting, and you might find out that you have a great Scout who has been really functioning as a lone Scout. Don't punish the kid for the parent's actions. I am NOT saying grant him an unearned rank - instead see what is going on. Shuck

It is not a myth - it is semantics. "white, hetero sexual males are the most likely to molest children" perhaps could be re-written to be "avowed heterosexual males are the most likely to molest children." The issue is that married men, who have reproduced, and who might have a regular heterosexual relationship with their spouse can ALSO be a molester. The reason this is brought up is that it is not the flaming gay guy who is the risk factor - it is the one you never suspected due to their public persona.

I would add Unintended Consequences to the list as well (research why a VIN is required, why one must be issued, and why the VIN is the only key identifying characteristic).

Eagledad: Once you get away from the San Francisco gay pride parade, they aren't about sex. The Marines were at the Pasadena parade, recruiting. Marines and Sailors marched in the San Diego pride parade. Assuming that you don't frequent gay pride parades, your view of them is colored by the media you choose to watch. As for the kiss in - a kiss is not sex.However, gay rights groups have long done their kiss ins as a form of being open about who they love. It is a means of coming out of the closet and making your perceived opponent uncomfortable. The gay and lesbian club at my univer

IT was uncool back in the late 70s/early80s. A couple of fun stories though. Junior year of high school. Chemistry class. One boy in the room had given the instructor an invitation to his Eagle COH before class. The instructor congratulated him during class. One boy (sitting in front of me) "Ha Ha - you are still in Scouts?" I tap him on the shoulder, tell the boy I am honored to have Mike join the Eagle's nest (we are different troops). I was also a football letterman. The boy in FRONT of the bully turns around and ask what the kids problem is. He had Eagled with me. He was the Presi

BSA24 that is the largest pile of horse pucks I have seen since Cavalcade. I will just say that if your generation is so damned good, why did you create such a horrible nation?

BSA24 - if we are telling our Scouts it is OK for an adult to smack a kid across the face for mouthing off, is it OK for the SPL to do the same when a Scout mouths off? How about if the SPL mouths off to you? Are you going to smack them for that? Shall the PLC get together and determine when a PL can whack a Scout for poor behavior? You say it is OK to to punch lights out if someone gets physical with your wife. How about if they just mouth off to her? You going to punch for that? We are supposed to be teaching kids the moral way to operate in society. Swinging fists every time someo

The types of "corporal punishment" described in this thread: "were I to see anyone smack their kid across the face" "striking, hitting, slapping, harming " "I can think of a few things kids would do that where getting smacked in the mouth would be a just punishment" Where do you draw the line on corporal punishment? Personally neither of my kids was spanked past the age 4 or so. It was not necessary, and I had better tools by then plus an ability to communicate.

Tokala - I disagree with your positioning. There is no need to go away from our values. Anti-gay is not one of of our values. It has never been taught, modeled or been a part of the program. More, tt is contradicted by the expressed faith and/or policies of many of our Charter Organizations. Now, homosexuality IS preached against by many more of our Charter Organizations - and they should have the right to determine their own membership rules and choose leaders in the units that they sponsor. Allowing local control would be a reflection of the Law of Reverent, and would maintain the

packsaddle asks: "Why is San Francisco so expensive?" San Francisco is surrounded on 3 sides by water - so there is little room for expansion. All of the available land has been developed already. All that is left is the ongoing gentrification of certain neighborhoods. Other reasons for the cost: Pay is good in the area (I should know - I have two open positions right now that are tough to fill): http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=San-Francisco-CA/Salary Unemployment is below that of both California and the US as a whole. http://bit.ly/UQHWZ8 So that me

Seattle - you should read your link. LUG is an overblown situation, more experimentation occurs among women NOT in college as well. Finally, it is self reported sexual activity data,with its own issues of validity. It only hits the news because it is about lesbians in college. I will believe that gays have all of this power when gay children are no longer killing themselves after constant bullying for their more moral betters, and when gay bashing is no longer a tolerated activity in our communities.

Packsaddle - my the boy would never survive the necessary committee meetings ( you know us Presbyterians - we need our committees to survive).

There is absolutely no need for the BSA to go down. We simply must determine what our core ideals ARE. Gay or not gay is so completely irrelevant to our mission, that it is humorously tragic that we allow this issue to impact our ability to provide a program for youth. Citizenship? Sell-Reliance? Good conduct? All of this wrapped up in program centered on on the outdoors? NONE of this has anything to do with whether or not someone is gay. Earlier someone asked how one of us would react to sending our son off with a gay Scoutmaster. 1) I am sure that among our units that th