Gunny2862

desertrat77 says, "The scout owns at least 50 percent of his fate in scouting."

I am going to disagree.

IF there is anything resembling a decent program in place - THEN the Scout(unfortunately and/or his guardians) owns at least 90% percent of his fate in Scouting. I would actually tend to place this number higher if the If-Then statement above is true.

Also remember that those volunteers of the GOBN are most likely dying to get new members, even though it may not seem like it.

And the cliquishness you detect MAY be because every year they hear the promises of enthusiasm and joining in the adult side logistical activity that makes it possible for the boy side to occur. And then every year see it wane and fall away - they are just looking for that parent who IS as COMMITTED as they are.

Step up, carry some water, go to some training, carry some more water and see if you don't accidentally become a GOB yourself - but you can't do it without fulfilling some tasks, you are earning the trust of those adults to let you have the good of the Troop put on YOUR shoulders - so that they can rest easy that you won't let the boys down.

We use Crocs or generic similar almost exclusively - in addition to their other properties if they DO come off, they float.

They don't really have to dry because they don't absorb water, the strap makes them easy to attach to the outside of a pack for stream crossing (save those boots).

No helicopter parent/guardian yes. Not, no moms.

I think my ASM who is a Mom is great. And she'll specifically deal Mom/Son issues either before or after an outing - almost never is she in Mom mode on an outing.

And I try not to be in Dad mode when I should be in SM mode also.

At at least one of our Jr. Highs the showers don't even work - and are used for Storage now instead -ewww.

thanks OGE

But see Gary, you are fine with exercising local options to use the program the way YOUR COR wants to use it but don't want anyone else to have the ability to do with a local option what they want to.

And while I may not personally agree with everyones choice of local option - it should be all have it or none have it.

Also while i understand and applaud your COR's commitment to providing Scouting to your youth in most other COR's (IME) Scouting is only one of the programs - not an intentionally integrated part of the COR's youth strategy.

And if we disagree about what another COR chooses for their local option one is free to seek out a new COR who wants it run the way each of us would want it done.

(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Ditto ScoutNut,

except in this area the CM can delay the rollover until School starts by requesting PRIOR to June 1 for a delay to allow the Scout to continue work on the current rank.

But as others have noted, once the School year begins - next rank.

As to Ghost Scouts in non-LDS scouting it really is simple economics, if we have non-attending/inactive Scouts on the roster there is no way we get a free leader at some events - for our particular situation unless we want to pay additional costs at every event we go to we need to pare DOWN our list rather than just carry in-actives.

When your CO doesn't foot the tab and the Scouts and their parents pay for everything except the meeting place, economics and certain parts of the Scout law, i.e. Thriftiness, become important.

Okay, apparently a truly differing experience here.

Disclosure, OA Brotherhood member.

Our Council Camp is the PRIMARY single beneficiary of our local OA chapter, there are SO many things that the chapter does.

At the Council Camp they clean up Campsite do minor repairs, clean campsites, ensure facilities are in working order add new program areas(new COPE activities) - under the guidance of the Ranger.

If you see a youth working at just about any Council driven event - he probably was made aware of the opportunity through either the OA or his Troop but was not recruited to work the event AS a OA member but they are primarily the ones who will answer the call and it's probably(by observation) 80/20 OA/Non-OA youth working the event.

Our OA youth are the ones who are the drivers trying to keep Brownsea alive.

There are at least four different workdays/Ordeal opportunities every year - two at the Council CS camp and two at the Council BS camp and occasionally a fifth at other Council owned/maintained properties.

Without the OA I sincerely believe we would lose a 50% more boys over the age of 15 from the Council. The have formed a great group.

For all but HA trips we pay as we go - you sign up and pay and then you either go or lose the money.

For HA trips we have a little more flex but there are so many more things in play;

e.g.: 1) Johny's dad is driving us to Philmont - Johny fails and is going to summer school, is Johny's dad still driving?

2) Billy's dad is our rock Climbing specialist - owns and operates Climbing gyms - Billy can't go - Is billy's dad still going and running that portion of the event AND/OR still providing the protective gear or do we have to go find a new Expert and equipment?

3) Outfitter gave us a 30% discount for the size of the crew, fall outs leave us down 15% for our reservation outfitter doesn't offer any discount at that number of passengers, cost goes up $50 per Scout and Adult.

etc. etc.

We try really hard to beat the money end for HA trips by having an Interest sign up with deposit date, a back out date with additional funds after which you paid; you either go or lose it and a "lost" date with final funding, unless perhaps something actually catastrophic occurs - the hamster dying isn't going to get it back....

It's the Scoutmasters Call, but I believe Stosh - (jblake47) has the right of it.

It's what I'd call but in this instance I'd have pulled a Tour Permit for the family camp...

First, I am not a PE.

Second, Some of us who work in Engineering have a hard time with things that are not cut-and-dried, fixed, with rules that change and have "wiggle room" or especially "undefined wiggle room".

That said, we need to get off of the spouting lines back at each other bandwagon and actually listen to what is being meant by those who are choosing sides in this discussion.

IMHO, the sweet spot on this lies somewhere in the middle. I don't think Lisabob nor Engineer61 want middle schoolers to be doing homework until eleven in the evening five nights a week. Nor, do I think various others believe that Schoolwork is unimportant - I was lecturing my H.S. Freshman on this topic this a.m. in fact.

But there does need to be some balance here, I get the idea that the College Student and maybe the H.S. Senior need to have the idea that there will necessarily be around an hour of homework per hour of class to prep for their next class - but at that ratio the H.S. Senior will actually be doing more work than the college student.

And most College Faculty will recognize that a Student who has over-scheduled and has no time to relax - is NOT an effective student. So shouldn't WE recognize also that over-scheduled youth are also going to perform less well than they could otherwise?

Our Troop has made it a practice, As his SM, I don't think I've signed any advancement in my son's book except the cert. that we talked about the YPT pamphlet in the front of his book. Just like I want every other boys book to be in relation to their parents.

As to MB's, as his SM our Council has advised that they don't want SM's doing any MB's for any Scouts in their own Troop.

I do have some highly qualified parents who do MB counseling for their sons but only when doing MB's in a Group scenario. Which we don't have an on-going system of, but is rather by request from a Group of Scouts for a particular badge.

Actually Gary I'm KIND of interested in your input.

But not to the point where if we are having an open discussion that I consider what you appear to be proposing, to wit and putting words in your mouth but it's the way I'm reading it, "I'll gladly tell you about the LDS as long as all comments are favorable and any factoids I provide aren't challenged."

I am a fan of discussion because that's about the topic, I am not a debate fan because that's about a competition and who crafts their argument the best - not about finding the truth through conversation.

You want more, I got your more right here...

Referring to on-going Training YPT, SA, SSD, etc.

Quote, "What Training certificates? I completed Woodbadge. I don't have to do any of that on-going training anymore!" UnQuote.

Someone, please, smack me again,... wet noodle please?

Eagle92, you are making my point, maybe I didn't pitch it well enough...

It IS likely that the council would turn him down.

OTOH, the COR should have a private brief not just on/with this fellow but on/with each and every applicant. His signature is the one telling Council that the COR thinks this fellow is okay.

Then Council can decide it's own level of comfortability not only with this fellow but with each applicant.

If the COR feels strongly enough maybe they have a talk with the DE about the fellow either before or while tuning in this fellows application. If not, well, maybe that is a lack of endorsement - but if that''s the case why would the COR sign the paper at all?

There are enough variables here that without meeting the individual in question and getting whatever disclosure he'd be willing to give that we can't and shouldn't say exactly what to do. But if he's willing to submit an app I'd ask him to talk to the COR second, AFTER I had fully signed on and become a believer and not just a Scouter who wants some help or a warm body to fill a DL slot.

Exchange between Engineer61 and Gary_Miller

"Engineer61, "3) Warning that I have received from parents of the LDS allowing known sex offenders into the BSA troops as leaders. (We know about Oregon.)"

All rummer and lies. If a person is a CONVICTED sex offender they are not allowed to work with youth in any capacity in the church. The key word is convicted. Accused is not convicted. This is still America innocent until proven guilty"

So is Gary Miller saying that anyone who isn't a CONVICTED sex offender is going to be seriously considered to work with the youth in an LDS Scout Unit? That's the way it reads.

I'd be having long long talks with the entire committee about even lifelong friends who brought along any hints of accusations who were looking into becoming Scouters. Becoming a Scouter is not anything that just anyone is or should be allowed to do - temperament alone could be a disqualifier for working directly with the boys, much less prior history of being accused of one of the bigger hot button issues in Scouting.

I'm joining Oak in the middle ground.

One) Adults very definitely have rights.

Two) The Registered Adults, especially Scoutmasters, should support the Troop to the extent of their capability.

Three)Discussion:

Okay, until a youth is caught (trapped) in a cave that I would have to crawl in and no one else(Senior Scout, ASM, Park Guide, EMS , is deemed capable of retrieving them, and I am not of more use in a site coordinator position (seeking outside help, coordinating response, keeping track of who is in the cave and who is out and if out where they are, is medical response required, etc., etc., etc., then you won't see me in a cave I have to crawl into.

IF My bills we to become overwhelming and I needed to work a weekend or two to avoid severe financial consequences, then arranging for another (Qualified) Troop adult to accompany the Scouts should be fine.

IF it is a decision between my Wife requesting my time on a certain weekend and the Scouts , sorry the Wife wins because A)she's the Wife and B) she very rarely asks and usually looks for a hole in the Troop calendar so she can schedule around them before asking.

OTOH, if the Scout want to do an activity I'm out of shape for, well, time to do some push aways and run a little.

If they want to do something I'm not interested in - fortunately I can usually brush up on my knots, re-learn Morse , catch up on paperwork etc. etc. etc. but I never get the chance because even on a "free" weekend

(which still means the Scouts set-up, cook, cleanup, and abide by Scouting rules( buddy system etc. etc.)) I wind up working advancement with the motivated few.

Adults do have rights, they also have responsibilities - one of which is being a good example of being an adult.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

The more I do this the more I realize there isn't a set answer to this.

Key: I think it's because it depends on the boy.

Hopefully, although not always, the parents know their child better than we do. I try not to worry about what methods the parents are using - they most likely won't listen to me about their parenting style anyway.

And frankly, SOME parents aren't self-aware enough to make a rational plan about managing their children in anyones interest other than their own.

So for some, a good thing; for others - the nail is in, they won't do it just for spite.

If the food is provided and prepared for a certain time and one misses it, well they will be hungry for a couple of hours - or in the U.S. they will for the first time in a while realize what the beginnings of hunger feels like - not a big problem.

If an advancement opportunity is provided for the group with all of it's attendant preparation and planning - do you run through it again for the Scout who chose to be late? Not the one who was the victim of an unfortunate circumstance beyond his control - but the one who CHOSE not to be there at the appointed time?

Choices and Consequences in a place where it is safe to fail...

You could use lots of charcoal - to create plenty of Co2 for that new tree to work with and let the boys make their Dutch oven Dump cakes for the event...

WAKWIB and others according to: boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-43409.html

Gottesmhlen mahlen langsam, mahlen aber trefflich klein;

Ob aus Langmut Er sich sumet, bringt mit Schrf' Er alles ein.

- by Friedrich von Logau (1604-1655), in Sinngedichte, (1653), III.ii.24.

Translated by H.W. Longfellow:

"Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small;

Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all."

(Cite: Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, 3rd ed.)

Which may have been popularized by a Winston Churchill Speech, but I don't have a cite on that.

Trev, ditto..