Gunny2862

I believe a "TarpTent" aka Henry Shires style with the parts sewn together but with the addition of the sewn-in floor would be welcome. Any of the TarpTent commercial tents should also work. Our Ranger way very particular about the two man tent stipulation and would have made us use a Philmont tent had we not had a two man tent to replace the solo one of us was planning on using. His Rationale (right or wrong)was a Bear sees a group of tents and sees something large he might not want to get into - a two man tent slightly separated might not seem like a much more tempting target but a one man tent either needed to be always in the middle of the group or not there at all - he pushed for not there at all.

My personal read, because you don't necessarily get good sites for a tent(think about how many people camp in these relatively small sites) it's easy to find yourself with no other viable option than a pre-dug swimming pool and if you don't have a GOOD bathtub floor you will go swimming. I had an ALPS tent that I was literally afloat on while others were trying to figure out how there gear got wet. The staffed camp personnel had put us in a draw and there waasn't anywhere we were allowed to place the tents that would have stayed dry. SO, I wouldn't do a Tarp at Philmont but I regularly do them here in the Ozarks, where I can pick my tent site.

I concur with the lightweight analysis, we used Jetboils and the only Philmont gear we took was a Serving spoon, the "frisbee", and the Bearbag rope and carabiners.

I've typed and deleted about three times and am still not sure exactly how to say what I'm trying to get at but here goes again... and due to the size and complexity of the issue I'm sure this will not capture all of the greater argument but...

If a family earned about 50-60 thousand in income, had just short of 400 thousand in debt, and were borrowing another 30-40 thousand a year. Wouldn't any financial adviser immediately tell them to a) reduce their expenses, b) quit borrowing, c)contact their creditors and give them a plan as to how they would be repaid, d) figure out a way to bring in more income.

From my perspective, it seems that the head of the family just wants to extract more income from the members of the family and continue the rest of the lifestyle. One of the members says yeah but make sure the older brother pays more because he earns more at his job. One of the members says no, you need to take less to let me invest part of what I earn into things that will ultimately bring in more money than you are forgoing at the moment, and possibly look at reducing the excess spending. And one of the members says no, it's not about taking more from what we earn the problem is the overspending and the resultant borrowing - when you deal with those we should talk about giving you more of our income but if those other issues are effectively dealt with we won't need to talk about taking more from us and until you do we'll do what we can to block the take more income answer because as long as you can take more from us you won't deal with the other avenues to fix this.

Now I know that's simplistic, but to the degree that it mirrors real life: Which one of the family members is being responsible? Why is it "Completely Irresponsible" to demand that the causes of the problem be dealt with first? Oh and while we're there, Why isn't the head of the family helping the members find jobs. And, in what way is taking money from one of the members and paying another of the members to stay home helping to solve the problem, when he should be scouring ways to find them a job that doesn't derive payment from his revenue but rather adds to the family revenue?

Wow

Gary, that's very pause, Libertarian of you.

But sounds about right assuming one trusts industry to regulate itself more than the Government to regulate on our behalf.

The feedback loop works better when the customers have something tangible to rate versus the price of the product and can fiscally reward those who do things effectively.

For someone who is so maligned as being so thick; this sure seems to make sense, and echo's some posters above... http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150260905388435 doesn't seem irresponsible to me..., what am I missing...?

And there's the rub. The Two major entities have been working together so long that they are two side of the same coin - something (in this case the Tea Party) came in and shook up the process. And a lot of people think that the business as usual needed to be shaken up.

Does that mean that anyone is fully happy with what the outcome is: I doubt it. But IMHO its good to see that the Office holders are at least considering whether they need to take what we think into account rather than just cutting deals without considering the electorate at all.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

CalicoPenn if the Tea Party has been " thoroughly taken over by the right wing with an agenda quite different from what they want.", then why are they still relevant in the conversation - even if it were true that it is only as an obstacle?

Would we even be having this conversation if it were true that the Tea Party has been " thoroughly taken over by the right wing with an agenda quite different from what they want."?

Beavah,

I think you are painting the Tea Party with a pretty wide brush drawing from a narrow sample or amalgamating various points into a crazy mishmash.

Something could be helping you with that would include that if you speak with a hundred Tea Party claiming folks you'll probably get a hundred different points on various issues from them and just because you put those points together it doesn't necessarily follow that those individual points are points that 51% of them would agree with. And there is no Party Office that speaks for the majority of Tea Partiers.

But unlike either of the other major parties the common thread would be that they want a smaller(thus less expensive) government. How to get there is a matter for discussion - clearly it would have to include entitlement reform.

But one thing also drives the common folk and their discussion of the issue - is that our politicians play the game unfairly(duh), we the folk consider when we speak of the budget to include the way our house works - (plan spending go get employment of some fashion to bring in required income,divide it up = budgeted spending), our government does more off-budget spending than on budget and that depending on why the politician is speaking of the off-budget items is either in or out of the budget which muddies the issue and the discussion. Especially when it isn't clear to those who haven't done any homework but rely on the media to inform them that the off- budget items (while not the whole problem) are the major items that will require trimming, reformation, or deletion.

Bottom line is the pack needs to carry your gear.

If you aren't a kid(and thus don't throw your pack around) and if you don't "bust brush" when you are hiking you can very easily use a lighter pack.

If your carry load is 50 lbs(a normal Philmont load, but many folks carry too much) - and you carry a six pound pack, the pack alone is more than 10% of your load(12%), an eight pound pack is 16% of your load! Thus the pack becomes the load instead of carrying it.

I can think of no reason why any competent person couldn't use a lightweight pack at Philmont. Just ensure you pay attention to carrying the lightest gear(especially Tent, Pack and Sleeping bag) you can afford and skip some of the extras - you will look at them after the trek and wonder why you carried them anyway. Cut your sans food/water load to about 30-35 lbs including pack and you will love yourself later.

As a SM I have never done a tent inspection for any reason.

As a Camp Commissioner at a camp in the Midwest, we have done daily inspections, and do give ratings to each campsite but (here's the subterfuge - game in a game...) The posted results have no bearing on any awards or competitions - but they do allow for both positive and negative and comments to be made regarding health and safety issues without pointing out the Scouts in any particular tent.

The Inspections are not about the neatness, but about catching pre-cursors to mold, fungal issues, unsafe individual food storage, before they grow. And in some cases, to prevent major issues - I.E., this summer I had two troops in a single campsite, One left their fire hot(whether it flared or not isn't a matter for discussion as it should have been cold dead out with no one in the campsite) as they went to MB classes - the Other had a gas leak on a stove...

What you do at home is your business, what you do on an outing with my Troop is mine and the BSA's.

One of the primary reasons adults camp with/near Scouts in the first place is to provide a safety framework for those boys in addition to providing the adult association method. How much safety framework is someone providing if they are inebriated to any degree - if something is happening that requires adult intervention then being addled by ANY substance is reckless.

Ensure your COR and IH know the rules and that they will back you, either give the adults another chance letting them know it's the last one; OR, give them the boot.

This isn't just about the rules, it's about the boys safety. For the adults involved it's about choices and responsibility. If they blow off the rules, what kind of adult association are they providing?

My brothers had a SM who thought having a cold one(or several) on the way home was no big deal, even though he had a load of kids riding in his packed full station wagon, pre-mandatory seatbelt laws,... after his interview with the state trooper and parental notification my parents decided Scouting wasn't for our family - I never got to be a Scout. I sincerely hope that SM truly enjoyed his refreshment...

Other than the can disposal issue, I like the isobutane systems we use (Various Jetboils). And I've never had an "I can't cook with it issue" with the isobutane canisters.

If it is 30 degrees F or below we do as a practice keep a can in a sleeping bag overnight but I have only seen negative effects when a)when super scout placed a can on the snow to start cooking, it still worked but not a good choice, it was quickly decided to clear off a rock and put the stove on that instead; separate case b) under 30 degrees and c) happened to be above 10k ft and using a stove that drew from the canister in the upright (gas draw) position. At the same time we had a different stove from the same manufacturer that drew from an inverted can (liquid draw) it showed none of the effects of the stove using the upright can.

Both stoves cooked okay but the one with the inverted draw was visibly superior and had I had a gram scale on the trip could probably have measured the fuel use difference.

Isobutane worked extremely well for us at Philmont 2010.

We will be using it again for our 2012 Expedition. IWTGBTP!

Isobutane Pro's/White Gas Con's

No fuel spillage a) in packs; b) while preparing pump; c) while removing pump; d)while pouring from large bottle to "cooking" bottle; e) if fuel tube comes loose from stove(big fire hazard); f) If pump to bottle connection is worn/leaks/improperly fitted.

No pre-ignition flare from fuel cups to warm the vaporizer tube.

Safer for all the reasons above.

Have to carry White Gas cans' regardless of full or not for the duration of the trip.

Can dispose of the Iso Can's at various Philmont locations.(Must Puncture and crush cans before turn-in)

Isobutane Cons's/White Gas Pro's

More Fuel canisters to worry about.

Have to carry empty canisters(which weigh nearly nothing) until you can dispose of them.

Isobutane isn't as good in the cold (in my experience 20/30 degrees F or less) especially if drawing with the port UP(drawing vapor) ,in some systems can use with the port down(drawing liquid)which avoids the cold+altitude issue MUCH better. In either case, carrying the "next" cooking cans in a Jacket against your body or Sleeping with them in your bag mitigates this issue - it has only once been an issue for us and we took no precautions and still managed to cook with them. This should not be an issue at Philmont unless you are doing a cold weather (Fall/Winter)AND altitude(>10,000ft) trip outside the normal Philmont summer season.

Pocket Rocket is a great stove but the pot, and windscreen must be considered along with the efficiencies/inefficiencies of combining disparate systems - I really like the combination in the Jetboil Helios System http://shop.jetboil.com/index.php/helios.html It did really well for us last year in combination with two Jetboil PCS's(one of which we dual used with a 1.5 liter pot and recommended accessories to convert to one Jetboil to a GCS. I am trying to source 2 Helios's and one Jetboil PCS per Crew for 2012, Our Troop thinks this is the ideal balance of cooking capacity/clean up water availability and weight. We found we used 8 Fuel canisters for 2010 for the 12 day expedition and carried 12 - we will probably carry 12 again next time.

(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Mucking out Camp "Vault" toilets with a shovel, bucket on a rope, and a topside helper when the decomp process failed or was overwhelmed.

Cleaning Grocery Store Meat shops - Band Saws, Slicers, Grinders, Knives, Tables and the overall space - with a good attitude and while displayed to customers.

Clearing the space under Scales, Truck Scales, Livestock Scales, Frozen truck scale pits (Lever, Load Cell and Combo's)

Some of that was excellent work (Not!).

Hanging Drywall is work but mudding and sanding, clean, but dirty if you know what I mean.

Oh, did I mention I was a Marine for 21 years? Nothing gross going on there. We talk about Philmont and 3 days w/o a shower, try 3 weeks at a time.

Back to the OP look into the Big Agnes Classic series, the square footbox and generous cut may help with some of the claustrophobic sensations and the air pad you put in will help with the ground heat loss. I use an Exped Synmat 7 as my air pad it's rated to 0 degrees F(I've used mine for more than 3 years at this point and love it. I haven't been able to save for the bag yet but have my sights set on their Lost Ranger model rated for 20 degrees F. Currently using the 3 part Military bag.

Thanks qwazse, that's the avenue I've been thinking. That just like the rest of the boys, it's not my award, just my responsibility to make sure they had the opportunity to get there.

We have lights, batteries, shelves, tables, cook kits, emergency food, emergency supplies, tents, stoves lamps fuel storage and a place for everything to go and until personal gear goes in, still have an aisle way.

The trailer is huge, the only time we are ever close to capacity is summer camp load in/out or if we hit the road to a drop off point with backpacking gear for 3 full crews(Philmont style).

It's great having such a big trailer because you never really worry about having to leave something behind for space or weight.

It's a curse having such a big trailer because it's easy to get into car camping and not taking those coll backpacking trips AND you limit the number of vehicles that can pull the thing.

If I were setting up a system form scratch - I'd look for two smaller trailers. One to load Troop equip for car camping and one to carry backpacks or footlockers. We need a full size Truck to pull ours now, I'd prefer to be able to use 1/4 tons or even full size cars if necessary.

Helios system and the 1.5 liter pot used with the pot supports and a regular Jetboil PCS were the two unspecified items I listed before.

Our trailer is owned by the Troop, which means ultimately as Troop property the CO owns it. We fund raise for insurance and have a generous donor who pays the registration which is in the CO's name.

Our Trailer resides normally at the CO, with multiple means of security.

At times one of the SM/ASM crew will drag it home and do some extensive rehabbing, usually in conjunction with the current QM.

For a full crew of 12, we took a two Jetboils, an extra pot, pot support, fuel can stabilizer to be used when the pot was placed on the pot support on one of the Jetboils and a jetboil group system not the GCS, but the $149 retail one. We all carried one can of fuel each. With all of that we still weighed in less than our 3 MSR Whisperlite Internationals with appropriate fuel to run each.

On our return we found we'd carried 45% too much fuel and could have left 4-5 canisters behind.

We made a sharpie slash on the bottom of any can we used on it's initial use and continued slashing with each successive use. When empty we drew a box on the bottom and then punctured the can to relieve any remaining pressure and then crushed and carried them out.

We had no fuel spills in packs or on the ground and it seemed like a much safer way to go without the priming hassles of the other systems.

We are retaining the MSR systems for freezing weather but had no problems with the Jet boils at 37 degrees and 11000 feet of altitude. Keys are to put the canister in your sleeping bag overnight but this was only a factor on our one coldest night.

But did ch33rful really get away?

ch33rful is showing all of the qualities we want in our Eagles - without the award.

I struggle with this myself as a Leader, one whose own son may choose not to complete the Journey to Eagle.

On one hand, he's a great kid. Active in his Community, his Spiritual life, his Troop. Well regarded by Adults and Youth, always commended on any job (paid or volunteer) he takes on. Multiple Varsity letters in Multiple Sports although only a Sophomore. Sought after member of our Council Camp as a Staff member. Decent but not stellar grades. Kind, Thoughtful, Introspective, Protective of others.

And yet somehow I feel I will have failed him if he chooses not to complete his Scouting career without that esteemed award... even though I know parents who would love to know how we got him to be who he is - as he is.

ch33rful - I have to think it is ultimately about who we are and who we become and not necessarily about the Awards or recognition we receive. After all, it's a game with a purpose - after arriving at a place of evaluation, if we find we have character - does it matter that we don't have a symbol from someone else recognizing it?

The 2010 awards are posted here: http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2010-02.html

Once there, you can navigate to all the archived years.

For our OA trail lamps we had a wide wooden base with a tea candle holder encased by four small glass windows with a flip open latchable top with a 1/4 inch gap around on three sides. Virtually untippable, not enough flame to catch the unit even if the candle fell over, wind and rain, well, resistant, 'cause we did get them put out once.

All home made except the glass panels which can be etched and cut from any standard sheet. Works great.

Smudge pots among other things are used on ranges to mark pathways, and provide "blacking" for weapons sights (a worn finish can shine, a temporary range fix is to properly smudge the sight removing the shine and when done properly "sharpening" the edges of the front sight post creating a better sight picture).

They were also used to keep a ready source of fire available for cannon and when in fixed emplacements, match-lock weapons.

Not really a lighting (lamp) accessory.

Hurricane Lanterns are an entirely different piece of equipment. Not the same at all.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

In my little personal world - where it can on occasion get a little petty - I experience a little push back when someone tells me I "have to" take the mandatory training.

On the other hand when I'm given the sales pitch that if I really want to provide the best Scouting experience for my Scouts then I'll make sure to get to the training and ensure I know everything Scouting has to offer them - Hey, I'm running to that. Especially if my predecessor has his "Trained" strip and ensures that even though he's the woodsy guy who know the taxonomia and common names of just about everything that exists in the woods and although I may never learn that stuff, I will learn ways to make Scouting work for the boys I'll be working with. After 20+ years in the Marine Corps I don't have any issues with my ability to endure just about anything in the woods, but even just being around other Scouters I learn new more comfortable more effective ways to do things, and to teach things in more relevant ways to the Scouts. And Training has simply been on some occasions time to do that w/o the boys.

In real life I have taken almost everything the OLC and Council offers except for Woodbadge - which is a two part time and cost consideration. I serve on the Council Training Staff as a Trainer, and even so, the "mandatory" nature of the proposal bugs me, and so I try to ensure that we A) cover all the material and b) try to make it as painless as possible.

For those who are commenting on too much emphasis on getting Eagle and may or may not be noticing the conjunction of college scholarship application time: Parents who haven't prioritized Scouting in their youths' life come up against the fiscal realities of how much college is actually going to cost them if they are funding it - and come to see that anywhere between $500 and $5,000 is lying on the table for their Scout but it's just out of reach w/o that silly Scoutmaster signing over the award.

In our entitlement world, it's just plan mean of Scouting to deprive little Johnny of his rights by not giving him what he's earned by being in Scouting(never mind his 2 year hiatus and complete lack of involvement when he was there.

Of course, the fact that parents are waiting until the kids 18th birthday to start thinking about how to pay for college, well, they are already in deep unless they are able to just write the check.