Gunny2862

My understanding is they were specifically worried about alcohol stoves and that fabricating a wood burning stove would not be a problem (IMHO).

Swimming against the popular stream, Words have meaning - it's why we have a dictionary.

If popular culture has added a new meaning to a word or influenced it in the vernacular to mean something different than it originally meant, well, that's why context is such an important part of the American variant of the English language.

I use the words I want to use, they serve me, not I them. If others have a PC agenda, fine. I, for one, am not playing.

However, I do hope that any who misunderstand me or in those occasions when I will misspeak will grant me the latitude to re-phrase or correct.

And from the quote that started it all, from the context, if they are too tired to gather sticks for the campfire they were pretty tired.(EDIT FOLLOWS) See, there I went assuming and posting before I read - but it is still evident that they were tired from the days activities and not pursuing homosexual practices and being referred to in relation to those.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

OldGreyEagle, I don't know what it says about the rest of my cars but that Wankel engine was the best one of them all.

I'd buy another one in decent condition in a heartbeat.

1979 Chevrolet Impala with the 170-horsepower 350-cubic-inch V-8, $215.00 at auction. I couldn't afford the gas for it even back then and then got the "Bomb" 1974 Ford Pinto Runabout in "Flame Orange" and "Date-Door" (Passenger could get in but needed assistance from the outside to get out)$500 at auction. From there I graduated to a Trek 7000 touring bicycle(It no kidding, cost more) a Ford Mustang(el cheapoo $$$ repairo had to go bye-bye) and afterwards bought my first and Last new car a 1994 Isuzu Impulse. From there I've had a 1985 Mazda RX-7, 1994 Saturn SL-2 and a 2004 Saturn LS200(newish).

As you can tell Troops vary widely on how they do things.

At least 10 Troop camp-outs a year (under stars or Canvas), 1 Cabin Camp, never more than $15 a trip.

Council activities 2-5 per year depending on conflict with our outings 10-30 per outing depending on COUNCILS price.

Philmont or other HA every other year after meet age requirements 720 + Travel costs about $900 total for family + Troop provided funds.

Summer Camp about $250 all-in.

Tents, cooking gear , water filtration etc. provided by Troop funds from fundraising(and it's not Popcorn money for this For us you can use your Popcorn portion for anything you want but we have Troop fundraisers to offset what we consider Troop costs.)

Sleeping gear and clothing provided by families - got to tell you thrift stores are awesome.

I figure the average family pays in about $550 or less to the Troop/Council per Scout on a non-Philmont year.

I figure the average family that chooses to send their Scout to Philmont pays in about $1400 or less to the Troop/Council/Philmont per Scout on a Philmont year.

Personal equipment costs vary so much based on what you choose to buy and where you buy it, the Scout Direct Program of ALPS Mountaineering is awesome. Several Scouters have used gear websites that are incredible.

I want a NEW sleeping bag, I am looking at $200-300 but over the course of two years only it's less than $3 a night I spend outside. So it depends on how you look at the purchase also

Prolly Spam but,

I Love ALICE if you need nearly indestructible heavy duty gear. But, for it's indestructibility you pay a weight premium.

Also love MOLLE, not nearly as indestructible BUT not near the weight for capacity either. I'd buy and carry MOLLE at Philmont, but would plan on a sewing session when I got back.

I am currently wearing a commercial pack but it transfers the load really well even though I am paying a weight premium, I want a GoLite Odyssey or Quest, but would use the Molle I had when I was in if I could get one at a reasonable price.

SeattlePioneer, I in no way am trying to denigrate anyone else's experience, and am glad yours was great!

However I can only comment from my own - which is solely as a Scouter and Brotherhood member.

But whether and how the Council and the local Chapter choose to provide Election and Tap-out/Call-out experiences is not something I can control - only comment on.

YiS

We as Adults have to remember that our YOUTH members see things very differently - and after going thru the stress of what may be the first time they've ever been voted on for selection to anything, It may be very important and have a deep impact if they feel it resolved by Call-out/Tap-out while the tension is still there from the election. However, if forced to wait 2-3 months or more to attend the "Special" ceremony they may no longer care. Until the next election anyway when they are usually disappointed they didn't get it done last time.

While delayed gratification is something they should definitely learn, I'm not sure the election cycle Call-out gap is the the place for them to learn it. If there's a single day between elections and the call-out ceremony my guys wear me out trying to find out what(if anything) I know about their election/selection results.

shortridge, The Tribe of the Lone Bear at Camp Arrowhead, Marshfield MO , Ozark Trails council is a descendant of the Tribe of the Mic-O-Say originated by H.Roe Bartle and operates out of the Heart of America Council, see Mic-o-Say link here http://hoac-bsa.org/Camping/HonorCampingPrograms/TribeOfMicOSay.aspx ,see the History page especially.

See ToLB Link here http://www.tolb.org/ you may need to copy and paste I didn't make the link live unless posting does it for me.

In my humble opinion, It is another organization which within Scouting uses additional motivators to incentivise (sp?) character development within those youth who choose to participate in the additional Scouting opportunities offered by the Tribe. While the OA can very much do the same thing this utilizes differing frameworks and has been a great program for several of my Troops Scouts who while OA members and participants aren't as motivated by the OA program as they are by the ToLB program.

Our Troop participates in both the OA and ToLB programs.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Fold and Roll Tents, Stuff Sleeping bags, store both loosely or hung.

UNLESS the manufacturer states they expect it to be stuffed but it still get stored loose if it's mine.

In my own case it's part of my overall need to have some order over things I can control and gives me inventory points as I pack the tent to ensure I have all of the stakes, poles, and accessories.

We do stuff like that all of the time and have a presentation set of stuff we loan at the Cross-over ceremony and that they reclaim with Troop provided joining swag when they complete and pay for Troop registration at their first meeting after Cross-over.

Some parents don't "get" what they are doing when they "fail" to pick a Troop and just go with the flow following one kid who wants to go somewhere for whatever reason he had to pick a Troop.

Our PLC still hasn't outright banned anything, though of course some locations we visit outlaw things, so we don't take them there.

As far as my view on electronics, 1) if they bring them, they are responsible for them.

2) If there's a usage issue (late night noise for instance) SPL may confiscate and return at end of trip(this of course make him responsible to safeguard it...)

3) If they are using them and it inhibits their ability to be a team (crew) member and could be a safety issue, then I (might) confiscate or more likely require them to discontinue use and pack it. i.e. Portions of some trails may require assistance from the crew member ahead or behind and face it the iPod is a distractor not a focuser.

All that said while I've never used mine on a trail I can definitely see how trudging up the spine of some peak might be easier with some distraction but, If I'm ignoring where I'm at while climbing that peak - then why the heck am I there in the first place?

Our Camp has invested a lot in ensuring strong OA and Tribe of the Lone Bear programs co-exist.

This generates two workforces that augment the Camp Staff in setting out pallets for floors and distributing and erecting Tents for set-up and the reverses at the end of the season.

Frankly, while I love my personal tent and my Exped mattress. I'd rather pay an additional $20 and put the UV damage on the Camps canvas tent, have more air available, be able to use a cot w/o damaging anything and get the "Camp" experience rather than just another seven days in my own tent. Our camps cabins during Camp season are reserved for Staff.

It could be many things, but in regard to the one you've pointed out.

For almost any occasion that involves "saying grace" "praying for our food" our Troop defaults to the Philmont Grace and either the Chief cook for that meal or the CA or SPL leads. It does reference a Lord and utilize Amen but is fairly generic enough to avoid antagonizing most, while covering the Spiritual minimums of most also.

Currently we have an Anglo, Hispanic, Asian bent to our Troop so we do have some diversity along racial lines and we also have a fair amount of economic diversity. But if they come in looking for diversity, we try to approach things as though we are all "Tan" - the color of our Scout shirt uniforms.

In defense of Scout Parents, on the first outing one Scout went on his father did a come along at a state park attraction kind of place to see what this Scouting thing was all about with this troop.

His kid decided to ignore instructions and run on this loose shale - which of course shifted, the kid fell and put a 5-6 inch long 1/4 inch wide gash down his knee.

None of the Scouts or the Adults had any F/A gear on them. "?" Yeah, that's what he thought too. No, I wasn't a volunteer on this trip.

The parent hiked the kid out to the car grabbed a clean workout towel(cut it up) and a workout band(the wide flat rehab kind) and bound it - put the kid back on the walk around with the Scouts and cleaned it up later when we got back to the trailer.

That parent is now a trained volunteer, and almost always has a F/A kit close by.

Actually,

I'm less concerned by Ms. Aguilera flubbing a line and putting her spin on the song than I am by the lack of respect shown by the multi-millionaire ball players who couldn't bother to show respect to the nation that allows them the freedom to participate in this enterprise. It would be nice to see an entire team standing, with hands in appropriate places, paying attention to the flag and what it represents for the very limited amount of time it takes to sing the song.

But then, I'd like to see that happening in Sports and Society across the spectrum too.

I've taken the local ARC WFA and my take on it is that it does introduce ideas that may not have occurred to the average layman BSA volunteer. Otherwise it is largely a re-hash of ARC First Aid and CPR.

I think it is worthwhile and while I'm thankful for EMT's and other Medical Pro's who volunteer in the BSA I also think it's ridiculous that some would try to hold the rest of us to those standards.

As regards the quality of the ARC WFA course I think it is purely a result of the Instructor and their background in both First Aid and the Outdoors setting. I also think that while being prepared and having a good kit is important, that most of us need IMPROVISATIONAL skills more than we need more kit that requires more and more training to use.

Even better is the comment posted above that thinking thru your activity and making every effort to avoid being in extremis is as if not more important than reacting after a poor choice. OTOH, that should not be construed to mean one shouldn't seek out a basic knowledge.

No, and No for the reasons given above.

Agnostic perhaps, Yes and No but in the case given, Sorry.

But there's nothing wrong in adopting the relevant parts of the Scout Oath and Law as you relate to others and yourself. In addition, at the risk of feeding the Troll, not a very clever screen name.

From the National Park Service Incident record the Father told the Park Service that his son had just completed a physical was 5'6" and 210 lbs "of solid muscle". http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/Park_Service_Report.pdf(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

And don't forget that the folks who had the most and best opportunity to judge the boys fitness level(his Parents) stated he was "fit".

Moving to a BMI standard is going to go the wrong way for most large people - it is predicated on the idea that no one has any additional muscle for lifting and carrying things - runners would do fine with it but Loggers and Football linemen do poorly on BMI charts.

Now if we could exempt with body composition, that might work but additional muscle shouldn't necessarily be a bad thing unless we are talking about a horses carrying capacity or something like that where the actual load limit comes into play.

Twocubdad,

Navy Corpsmen lose Marines on Training runs on base in PT gear, happens enough it's usually not a big story. Professional usually EMT level trained medical professionals working on a regular basis with people they know who are in EXCELLENT shape especially when compared to the avg. civilian.

Heat and Cold signs are easy to miss - self-diagnosis and buddy diagnosis - or in our case Scouts who have actually LEARNED what we are teaching them, is the best defense here.

Does that mean the SM has no responsibility - of course not, but barring becoming paid full time pros - there is no way to meet the safety demand of some posters in the other thread.

Without requiring EMT's who are themselves limited, you aren't going to do better than ARC CPR/FA and WFA. but they are still extremely limited and are in no way the panacea some posters in the Everglades accident thread think they would be.

I did the Army Combat Lifesaver Training while I was in the Corps and even that is no guarantee that it would solve these problems, even if it were applicable for use on and available to Civilians to use for training- even EMTS are limited in what they can do. At times the situation develops and in ways that, no matter what you planned, is going to kick your butt - and you just have to hope that what you CAN do is enough to get everyone out.

Without hauling a Surgeon, M.D. and EMT along you couldn't be safe enough for some of these folks. And my argument is that if you are forced to do a lightning halt on top of a bald, even dragging those folks and their tools along - will probably not be enough if one of the Crew is hit by lightning.

We have to come to terms with the FACT that we put ourselves and these kids in harms way anytime we get more than a mile off the road - that is just the plain truth.

I'd like to ask a few more questions about this.

In the overall story it alleges 6 Boy Scout related youth deaths since the 1990's - Out of how many cumulative Boy Scouts during the same period? And then what is the standard U.S. mortality rate at that age group?

In the overall story it alleges 6 Boy Scout related youth deaths since the 1990's - and then lists three one during a Grand Canyon hike, one on the Water and one from a lightning strike.

If expert knowledge is assumed to be required for a hike, then doesn't it follow that some higher than usual level of risk is also involved?

Any water activity carries risk, if we assume guidelines were followed, I'm sorry but water activity carries risk - you get laid out unconscious for any reason and we don't do a good job of breathing the stuff.

Lightning - the reason we do lightning drills is because we are outdoors - if you happen to be crossing a bald when lightning moves into your strike zone - you have two choices, move on which is against policy and execute the lightning drill which while it minimizes your risk - you ARE still exposed.

The parents in the video state that their child was "fit" but Blancmange states he was 5'6" and 210, unless he was also an athlete carrying a lot of muscle, I question calling him fit.

The complaint, throwing everything including the sink at the question, states the Scouters didn't have adequate training. From what I can gather, these were not first year Scouters, what training DID they have, but, just as importantly what training would the prosecution suggest?

I am not familiar with this trail, but have done my share of Military foot movement in the heat of Florida. Was there an opportunity to "bail" off of this trail? Could they have turned back at the 10 mile point and been closer to help? Were there other "bail-out points" that would have helped them, realizing they still would have had to moved to them?Or was pressing on the only non-helicopter choice?

How much water did the group have on them? How much did this youth have un-consumed before he went down.

Were they taking water breaks and was consumption mandatory and observed at the breaks? Were they conserving water due to an inability (real or perceived)to resupply along the trail?

Bottom lines is that given who he was and where he was, and what he was doing and not only the Adult Leaders but the youth's own experience and supposed knowledge level(he was only his project away from Eagle) he may have been "as safe as possible".

Regrettable but not necessarily preventable.

Most of our Campouts follow the model Scoutnut most recently posted. OTOH, the SM and ASM always stand ready to engage in any specific advancement check the Scout has made himself ready for, or to teach any skill they may want to pursue.

But by and large we like to see advancement happen in the course of Scouting, rather than Scouting happen in the course of advancement.