Gold Winger

I wonder what would happen if someone showed up with the old uniform. Would they be turned away at the gate? Not allowed to board the plane?

Huh? Can you refute that we did it to ourselves with our demands for cheaper and cheaper products but higher and higher wages. Toss in there the greed of the companies to make every possible penny, no matter the social cost. What does any of this have to do with the Scout handbook?

In the end, the sad truth is that we did it to ourselves. The only justice will be when the market for the cheap stuff collapses because no one except lawyers, doctors and fat cats will have any money.

Hoo-rah!

"As Irving, Texas is just up the road, how about we all gather at my house with torches and other implements of destruction and march on National Headquarters." Buy Craftsman or they'll probably be made in China as well. The time will come in the not too distant future that our fighter jets and bombers and aircraft carriers will be made in China.

The only thing that I'd call stodgy would be the one about Camporees but you find that with folks of all ages in any organization. " Or like refusing to offer more than two Eagle BORs per year, thereby making those two Saturdays marathons for the Scoutmasters" Before I took over advancements for my son's troop, our un-stodgy troop only held four BORs a year because the advancements chair didn't like disrupting her life and they were all held during troop meetings. Old stodgy me said, "this ain't right. boys should advance as soon as possible after the meet the requirements." So I set up BORs for every other Sunday. It won't work, I was told by the un-stodgy adults, you'll never get committee members to give up a Sunday afternoon. So I recruited committee members just to sit on BORs and stodgy old me insisted that they be trained before sitting on a BOR. The system worked very well, we'd even do the unthinkable and hold BORs on campouts and at summer camp. Fortunately, most of those un-stodgy people quite and the stodgy ones worked had to develop a boy lead troop. Stodgy isn't a bad thing. The simple solution is that if they are being counter-productive, to not accept their registration next year.

" He found it laying about and threw it in the trash." The lesson here is "don't leave important stuff lying about."

It's not about Scouting, it's about dollars. They could have gotten cheap shirt in Honduras or Mexico but they are cheaper from China and since they sell for the same price, it means more dollars for the mucky-mucks.

"LisaBob on the head once again, weve got some stodgy District folks that need to find a new hobby. It gets to be a real problem after a while." I'd like a concrete example of how one of your stodgy guys is causing problems. You see, I'm pretty stodgy about things like letting the boys make mistakes while learning to make decisions, mastery of a skill vs. just one time for show, Scout-like behavior even away from Scout meetings, and physical activities that challenge them. I'm not hip with things like assuming that kids can't do something so we have to do it for them, the need for cell phones at every moment, the current fear of dirt and germs, and the attitudes that most modern parents are willing to tolerate from their children. Yep, I'm stodgy.

"Your 1936 version?! For those of us who dont have such old copies, how are we supposed to know what that thing is?!" It's also in my 1942 edition. :-)

My recent handbooks are mum on that question but I opened my 1936 edition and it says the knot is a "simple overhand knot."

" Asking for material donations is the same as asking for the money to buy them." That's not the way it is written. So, according to you we are supposed to go with the interpretations of the professionals? But wait, in another thread, you were telling us to ignore the interpretations of the professionals. Which is it? The written word or the interpretations of professionals? I'm confused but you seem to be confused as well. "If you need door priyes or any other materials through the year why not budget for them?" Because people like to help, especially businesses which can consider it an advertising expense if not a charitable donation.

Gold Winger: In your initial post I think you meant to say that "Being a good parent and being a good scouter are NOT mutually exclusive...." Sure . . . that's the ticket. Yeah, that's what I meant to say. Yeah. . .

He was about 50 years old. Born in 1857, Brownsea Island happened in 1907.

" They fail to recognize that scouting is competing for boys and that the program has to be exciting in order to keep the boys interested." I think that this is a problem with most parents involved with units. "I'm here for my kid and I'm bound and determined to make sure that nothing goes wrong!" Exciting? Most parents don't want exciting, they want dull and boring and adult led to keep mistakes from happening. "Johnny needs to make Eagle by 15 and then I'll be gone."

From the BSA money earning application "The BSA Rules and Regulations state, Youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money for their chartered organizations, for the local council, or in support of other organizations. Adult and youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money in support of personal or unit participation in local, national, or international events. If they wanted to prohibit solicitation of money and goods they would have said that. As for popcorn prizes, Bob might have a point there but there are other reasons to solicit items for prizes. Door prizes for the annual dinner and prizes for patrol competitions come to mind.(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

I may be wrong but the prohibition is on soliciting monetary donations. I'm pretty sure that asking for door prizes and such is allowed since I used to do that and our District Commissioner was also on the Troop Committee. Never had to provide a tax ID, even for Wal-Mart, just a letter on troop letterhead.

FScouter said, "Some of the best adult leaders are those WITHOUT a boy in the troop. They don't have a "vested interest" to color their judgment." I have to concur with this. In some of my old Scouting books it refers to the Troop Committe as being made up of prominent people from the community. That makes sense. People who aren't there to see to it that Johnny makes Eagle but that the program is followed. Being a parent and being a good Scouter are mutually exclusive but it sure seems to be more difficult to find a parent who can serve in a disinterested manner.

"What the heck do you do with 26 (I counted them yesterday) uniform shirts if you stop wearing them?" Wow! Did you just buy a new shirt when you changed positions instead of just putting new patches on? Heck, when I wore a jacket and tie to work I didn't have 26 dress shirts. Wow!

Sure the jackets cost less back then but gas was 25 cents a gallon and a well paid worker was making $5 an hour. I have a vintage red jac-shirt that I got on ebay mostly because I think that the material is nicer and the price ($35) didn't hurt. As usual, I'm astounded by the people that I talk to that complain about the price of Scouting items like the jacket but will spend $300 for a replica NFL jersey. I know a Scouter who rides a Harley and was complaining about he cost of his Scout pants. I pointed out that he wears a Harley jacket, Harley helmet, carries a Harley wallet, and wears a Harley belt and Harley boots as well. A friend and his wife dine out nearly every night but he says that they don't have cable TV because they can't afford it. Another friend doesn't have internet access because he can't afford it but he has cable TV with all of the premium channels. It's all a matter of priorities.

This sort of activity on ebay has always baffled me. The savvy collector would know that the can be bought at the Scout shop for $1.50. Even if his local shop won't sell them over the counter, it isn't that difficult to find a friend who can get them for you. If you've earned the award and done the paperwork you're usually given one with your certificate and if you really need more (I do have four shirts) and the scout shop isn't close by, you can ask your DE or commissioner to get one for you on his next trek to the Scout Shop. Even if you're 100 miles away from the Scout Shop, you can ask them to mail it to you. So who would pay $35 for a $1.50 patch? Someone who earned it? Probably not. Someone who hasn't earned it but wants to put it on his uniform? Not likely either because he'd probably know enough to get it from the Scout Shop or from someone with access. So who remains?

Why? Because you find really stupid people buying and selling things on ebay. A friend bought a new roll of quarters ($10 face value) for $2 plus $3 shipping. I've seen current CSPs go for over $10. MP3 players that can be bought at Best Buy for $35 have sold on ebay for $50 or more. ebay gives new meaning to "buyer beware" and adds "seller beware".

"Headgear. All troop members must wear the headgear chosen by vote of the troop/team." Adults are not "troop members." "Headgear is optional. Boy Scout leaders wear the olive and red visor cap, campaign hat, or troop-approved headgear." That's from 34048, "Scout Leader Uniform Inspection Sheet." Call me a scofflaw but when I worked at the troop level, I rotated my hats on a weekly basis. Red beret, light green garrison cap, dark green garrison cap, campaign hat. Sometimes, if I was feeling really puckish, I'd wear my Air Explorer cap.

"Try to do that runnin' around playin' a wide game, climbin' trees, racin' your buddy in a sprint to the trading post and the like!" When I was young, I did. When I worked on a loading dock, I did. I refereed hundreds of high school basketball games in which most of the players managed to keep their shirts in. Those who didn't managed to get them back in at the first opportunity. Baseball players keep their shirts in. I don't watch tennis anymore but when I played tennis, we kept our shirts in. It really isn't that hard. Well, maybe it is for you. "Ethical choices come from within, using your brain, applying principals, morals, character, and knowledge." Principals, morals and knowledge are all components of guidelines.(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

"I can't say I particularly care about tucked or untucked when it comes to outdoor gear. If you're bein' truly active, keepin' a shirt tucked in just seems like unnecessary extra work. " I managed to do about 100 miles on the AT and 80 miles at Philmont last year with my shirt tucked in. It isn't that big of a problem. "Heck how do we ever expect them to ever make ethical choices when we go around telling them how to dress??" Ethical choices require guidelines.