GKlose

We pay for Troopmaster and also website space...a few months ago, someone posted a link to a guy that seems to be linking the two together. A Troopmaster-like database application along with online space and access, for about the price of Troopmaster alone, as I recall. I remember thinking that if we weren't already tied into both we'd probably consider it as an alternative.

Stosh -- I get what you're saying, but at the same time, you pulled apart my response, quoted and responded to it (making some assumptions that just plain aren't true) and then interspersed it with quotes from other sources, leading one to believe the quotes were related. That's just plain misleading...

First of all, back to my original statement -- "I like JFL's idea" (of having the SM counsel the SPL, and then the SPL counsel the PLC). You're assuming I meant adult-led in this circumstance and it isn't what I was implying at all. The question is, how does the SM counsel the SPL, and what does he say? I am most certainly not assuming the SM would say "Mr. SPL, the PLC seems to be stuck in a rut, by camping in the same places month after month...so why don't you see what you can do to change it." That most certainly is adult-led and driven.

But what if the SM actually counsels, or mentors, the SPL, and asks the SPL what he thinks, and if he sees any problems with what is going on. Maybe the SM would point out that attendance on monthly outings has really dropped off, and asks the SPL if he thinks there are reasons for that. Then maybe he takes it from there.

Secondly, I threw a quick story about the place where my troop is coming from: adult-run troop method. I've told many stories about that, even though I don't assume everyone will remember those stories and link them together. I've had private conversations with a couple of guys who have offered a ton of great ideas about moving away from adult-run troop method.

I was offering that story for exactly the reasons you picked up on...despite reorganizing a PLC, it was still an adult-run troop (where adults debated the annual calendar, not the PLC -- adults were choosing the same things month after month, based on the previous year's success, saying "well, everyone seemed to like it, so why don't we do it again?"). The Webelos group did split off, for what they would consider the right reasons, and are still quite happy about it. It's one of the best Webelos III adult-led, patrol-leaderless troops where everyone advances one rank a year, that I've ever seen. And they sure do have a great outdoor program, going all sorts of places, with father-son camping.

Like I said in my post, there is a whole lot more to the story. I don't want to hijack the thread any more than I have.

Guy

Our troop has been in a situation where there was no PLC for at least a year, possibly more. Adult-led, advancement-oriented, the whole bit. Outings were in the same place every year, roughly six outings a year, and the same 16% (give or take) attended. A funny thing happened too: an entire Webelos den joined one spring, and by November, they had decided to split off and form their own troop, which had monthly outings in varying places.

There's a whole lot more to the story (and I've told bits and pieces in other threads), but I won't drop a bomb here.

Personally, I like JFL's idea -- the SM should be counseling the SPL, and the SPL should be challenging the PLC.

Guy

RS -- funny you should mention that. The main reason why I decided to take ARC first aid, WFA and ARC CPR/AED (this one through work), was because the last time I had a first aid course was on a speed-pass through First Aid MB at summer camp when I was 12. I realized that I don't know squat about first aid, and that I should remedy that.

I don't necessarily get warm fuzzies that the national program committee is reviewing the first aid merit badge requirements on a periodic basis, or at least as often as it should, but I do know that Red Cross does review their curricula and protocols often, and I would hope that in the best case the BSA would do the same thing.

I'm pretty comfortable with T, 2C and 1C ranks and their graduated sets of first aid requirements, but I also think there is some room for either improvement, or expansion, in first aid merit badge, or at least in an extension of it.

For example, make sure at the very least that first aid MB is in lock-step with the Red Cross. I've been through that certificaton twice in the last few years, along with CPR and AED, and honestly, I think it is a comprehensive and well thought-out curriculum. I've also been through WFA (not the ARC version, but SOLO's version) and I'm due for recertification by this next March. I think most of that curriculum is within the grasp of an average 15 to 16 year old Scout. Intro to Wilderness EMT, or something like that? There's certainly room for it, and the world could be a better place with more people certified.

Guy

I don't want this to come across as gloating, but I'm down 25 since 8/1, with about 17 to go to hit the high-end of the high adventure range. Our summer camp uses that same guideline for backcountry trips, and this last year I wouldn't have been eligible to go on one.

Weight loss is a strange and wonderful, and sometimes elusive, thing. Feels great when it works out right.

In our district and council (who mandated common standards across districts), projects are reviewed by the district advancement committee. Prior to these common standards, in our prior district (and independent of the other districts in the council), one district advancement committee member would have reviewed the project and given approval for the project.

This is just the way our council has been trending, and recently posted the guidelines on the web: http://www.yccbsa.org/advancement/Eagle/index.htm

I just noticed that looking at the project workbook (not the application!), there is no slot for a district signature.

Here's something mildly interesting: the application and workbook are supplied by national as editable PDFs. Someone figured out that a sizable project, needing many pages of project description, had problems printing as an edited PDF. So they made a Word template.

Guy

Bart -- that's a perfect use for a trucker's hitch (which is a very useful knot, especially for stringing a *very* tight ridge line for a tarp). I didn't really know the knot a year ago --

But after a dad who went on a canoe trip saw the outfitter use a trucker's hitch, he asked what it was. The dad asked me if I knew it, and I didn't, so I learned it.

I can't explain it too well here, but I found a YouTube video on tarps to be really useful in learning it (the tarp-stringer runs a tight ridge line using the trucker's hitch, then uses prussicks to secure the tarp to the ridge line).

The problem with using a taut line hitch for tying something down is that the knot isn't held tight by tension. That's where the trucker's hitch comes in. You can tie it one-handed, on one side of a vehicle, and it is in tension, so that the knot is held tight by it's own line. Shouldn't loosen up too much with vibration, unlike the taut line hitch. However, the trucker's hitch isn't adjustable like the taut line hitch -- you have to retie part of it to adjust it.

Guy

This is kind of related to an ongoing discussion I've been having with the rest of the adult leadership of our troop -- we don't reinforce scout skills.

For example, the clove hitch...what is it used for? Starting certain lashings, for one thing. If your scouts aren't lashing things, then they aren't reinforcing the clove hitch. Lashing things (useful camp devices!) is fun.

The one that drives me up the wall is this one: the taut line hitch. I can tie it one-handed, because it is easy to tie one with one handing keeping the tension off a line headed to a tarp, while you use the other one to tie the hitch around a stake. I've done it hundreds of times. I could do it in my sleep. :-)

But I would guess that most of our scouts (ours, in the troop, that is) can't. Because they aren't pitching tarps. We have one of those large carport things (which I hate!) that assembles with a team of 8 people of so. One for the troop. My idea is to hand a tarp to a patrol, have them walk some distance away and set it up. Some other committee members want to purchase those pop-up shelters. I'm saying "No! We need tarps!". That's how you get them to improvise, to walk away, to be one more step self-sufficient, to learn taut line hitches.

I suppose you could argue the taut line hitch is anachronistic, or something like that. But until the requirements for Scout skills have "set up a pop-up shelter" instead of "demonstrate a taut line hitch", I'd prefer my way. Scout skills should not be learned for the benefit of solely passing rank. I think they should be put in a useful context.

Guy

One of my fondest memories from my old troop, in the early 70s, is that we'd sometimes do a night hike. One place in particular, a state park, we'd be there every spring to go caving. Friday night, after arriving and setting up camp, we'd go on a night hike. The rules were simple, our SM asked to minimize talking and to not use flashlights. Sure enough, after a little while, our eyes would adjust (and maybe this trip was always timed so that we went when the moon was bright) and we didn't need to talk. The hike wasn't long -- maybe a couple of miles -- but it would end at a huge natural bridge.

In our troop now, I don't know that our scouts could hike quietly. They get this funny thing going on that when it gets dark out, they feel more compelled to yell. Even from tent-to-tent, right next door.

Lots of kids, my sons included, also seem to be comforted by flashlights. I still tend to walk at night, without light, unless I really need it (and yes, sometimes I walk slow!). I also abhor those headlamp-style things that seem to be adjusted just so the person wearing them shines them directly in your eyes when they're talking to you. Man, just shut them off! Your eyes adjust!

(it's funny, though, how our Scouts don't have any problem at all running through the woods playing their version of Manhunt, while minimizing flashlight use)

Anyway -- if I were in a similar circumstance of trying to dream up night activities, I'd do something similar. A night hike -- how about one that ends at a council ring for a campfire? To help make the experience more personal, maybe you could send out patrols at staggered times, such as every 5 minutes. That could help prevent it from being a long line of scouts yelling back and forth, flashlights everywhere (ruining their night vision). Even better to incorporate the idea of nighttime navigation, or maybe do what astronomers do -- red lenses only.

Guy

Some of my best ideas as a Scouter have come from my memories with his troop. :-) As far as I'm concerned, I still consider him my Scoutmaster, and he's been a great help in recent years, via email conversations. One thing I did recently was to organize a weekend patrol leader training course, which I did with RJ about 35 years ago.

And no, unfortunately, I aged out about a year before his first trip to Seabase. He started the troop in '69, I think, and I joined in '71. I had such a great time.

Want a note of irony: in two weeks, I'm going to be doing the cooking demo for OWL. :-)

Meanwhile: this last weekend, I showed up at a district training day, just in case they needed extra hands for training, or assistance or anything. Light day, with no walk-ins, therefore I didn't have anything to do. So I just sat with my WB21C troop guide (who is married to the district training chair) and talked about life, the universe and everything (including my ticket progress).

Guy

Not only DCI, but there are community marching bands, community concert and jazz bands, and at one time, at least, there were VFW (or AmVets, or American Legion) drum and bugle corps. Here in the northeast, we still see fife and drum corps at parades. So, yes, I think there are rec leagues and rec league bands.

Some random thoughts: I didn't march in college, but my HS experience was pretty rigorous. It wasn't required to march, but it was certainly expected. I would guess that a regular (school day) band grade suffered if you didn't march.

I can't recall how many games there were per season, but there were at least 9 of them. We did a different half-time show for every game. We had summer practice, not so much for marching, but to start working on the music repertoire (I had to beg nights off from working at a local Scout camp in order to attend). Marching practice, without instruments, the week before band camp. Then band camp.

During band camp, we started working on 4 shows (each was 7 minutes long): the pregame show, our first week show, and then starting work on our second week show and our competition show. Also some basic marches for when we did parades.

Once the season was underway, the pregame show (of course) and the competition show were the only ones we repeated. Practice 5 days a week, including games days (Fridays). There were times that a game would finish and then we'd hit the field to run through the competition show a couple more times (our director would commonly give us a "one good turn deserves another!" just after we finished a run-through. Then it was up early Saturday morning to catch a bus, play in a parade in some town, and then a band competition in that same town that afternoon.

A typical practice might include a pregame show run-through (until later in the season, that is), that week's show, the competition show and then prelim work on the next week's show.

As the season went on, there were times when we'd get new music in band class on Monday (and a new drill that afternoon in MB practice), and by Wednesday we had both of them memorized (7 minute shows), and we performed them on Friday night.

By comparison, our "pep band" (which played during home basketball games) was easy: most of the repertoire was already memorized from the football season. We'd add a few more things, but those were relatively easy to pick up.

I'm not sure if any other bands were organized the same way, but we had instrument sections broken up into squads of 4. There were section leaders, and squad leaders, and both had responsibilities. The squad leader, for example, had to make sure that the squad knew its drill assignments. The drum major, who ran practices, would typically address squad leaders, not individuals. Our band director was heavily involved of course, having designed the shows, and rehearsing the band during the day, but it was the drum major's show in the afternoon and evenings.

Our band director came out of the OSU/ROTC bag in the mid-60s, so I would think that he was basing it on his OSU marching band experience.

Guy

My favorite is the Purple Gorilla story, but I would guess that most Scouters know it, or at least heard it in their youth.

My WB21C patrol consisted of one district training chair, one Scoutmaster, two Assistant Scoutmasters, and one Cub Den Leader. The Den Leader had no prior experience with scouts other than his one year of leading a Wolf Den. He admitted he was a little lost, at first, because he didn't really understand the patrol concept.

I think that as we went along, he understood more and more, and gained much more interest in what is coming along after his son moves to a Scout troop. That is, provided his son stays interested. But it sounds like he comes from a strong pack, and that he'll continue as a den leader or perhaps a Cubmaster.

So did he lose anything by not having Cub-specific programming? I don't think he did. But I think he gained a lot. He's just as devoted of a Scouter as the rest of us in the patrol.

Guy

One of my WB patrol-mates is a district training chair, and has been so for quite awhile. I've since volunteered a couple of times to assist her with some events, and what I've found is interesting. She has an "operation" in place. She has training people she trusts, and are highly experienced. They are people she trusts and she can count on.

Although I don't see everything behind the scenes, I think she spends a good portion organizing what is going on, not actually doing things herself. For example, I attended her "Trainer's EDGE" workshop (6 hours over two evenings), and she only presented an opening, a closing, and one small section herself. Everything else was presented by someone else.

I'm assisting her with OWL for Webelos Leaders in a couple of weeks. I think she has a staff of at least 10 people for that. There are two of us that are assigned to the cooking portion -- I like the idea that if the other guy or I have an emergency that pops up, we'll still be covered. I would think it also advisable that a training chair have a "floater" nearby just in case someone backs out at the last second.

Guy

I'd like to thank everyone for their feedback so far -- but I have another question: problems with small steel pins used as stakes are obvious. But what about fiberglass versus aluminum tent poles (standard dome type of tent)? Are there issues with one type versus the others?

As far as expected conditions, I don't really have a guess. We're not as far north as Maine, but winter weather is unpredictable. Rarely below zero, but routinely between zero and 30F mid-winter. Snowfall? Sometimes heavy, during nor'easters, but in some of those snow emergency situations, I could see outings being cancelled. More likely, during the season, freeze and thaw cycles, so that we have varying degrees of snow, slush and in-between. Frozen ground? Definitely, except during a thaw cycle when things get a bit muddy. New England is kind of all over the place.

Thanks again --

Guy

Mr. Beaver -- "award" was your choice of words in this circumstance, not mine. My statement stands on it's own: a committee withholding something rightfully earned, especially for arbitrary and artificial reasons, is most certainly punitive. In this particular case, I see it as a penalty (withholding credit for a night of camping) on Scouts because of the actions (SM not trained in IOLS), and arbitrary rules (SM has to be trained for a Scout's outing to "count"), of others (the committee's policy, not BSA policy).

I'm not sure why you think a troop committee trumps everyone else (BSA, SM, CO, COR, etc) in terms of interpreting BSA policy, but I think that is a faulty assumption. It is well-known that in terms of a merit badge, it is the merit badge counselor that gets to decide what does and doesn't suffice for credit. What if an SM is the Camping merit badge counselor? His agreement is with the District Advancement Committee, correct?

Guy

By the way --

Last year, at a different summer camp, the dining hall steward was extremely helpful with the vegetarian (and the camp is completely peanut-free, using "sun butter" for the default).

This year, with patrol cooking, the commissary staff couldn't have been nicer. I checked allergens on labels several times, because they do a lot of bulk-food repackaging. They also were able to supply us a steady stream of plain bagels, which the dairy-egg allergy Scout can eat. He can't, however, eat the cinnamon raisin bagel they supplied one morning. They didn't know, but it was an easy correction to make when I talked to them.

Just as a side note -- the commissary staff, two women, only worked part-time hours. They'd put together, at the same time, the evening meal coolers, which were delivered by camp commissioners at 4:30pm, and then also breakfast/lunch coolers, which were delivered at 6:30am. I think they only worked between 10am and 2pm. The difficulty, I think is that they had to prep two coolers for every patrol (sometimes multiple patrols/troops per site). That was one big stack of coolers!

We've got this situation right now, with a new Scout. Interesting, though -- his dad tells me that he doesn't eat anything new unless his mom is there to approve it, and when I talked to her, his mom wasn't real informative (to questions like "does he have problems being nearby peanuts, like some kids on airplanes?"). His dad thinks he needs to learn it on his own.

My concern is a little more practical -- this last summer at camp, patrol cooking, we had a strict vegetarian and a severe dairy-egg allergy; both subsist on peanut butter at camp, and we pretty much had to consider two sets of cooking utensils. Add to this a severe peanut allergy, and it is pretty much beyond me.

Guy

"And not receiving an award is not punishment."

That's twice you've said this, and I'm not buying it.

Witholding a rightfully-earned award, especially due to arbitrary and artificial reasons, most certainly is punitive.

Guy

Fall '77, I think, I had the privilege of watching an OSU marching band rehearsal, both the indoors and outdoors portions. If I recall correctly, wasn't there a sign above the door that said "TBDBITL"?

One surprise for me, after having just watched a jazz ensemble rehearsal, was that Tom Battenberg, the jazz program faculty/chair (and trumpeter), was also in the marching band.

I think it's also pretty amazing to see their present audition guidelines, which you can find online. There are physical standards to get into the band and they are pretty rigorous.

Guy

Anyone with firsthand experience at the Philmont Leadership Challenge (http://www.philmontleadershipchallenge.org/)? If so, I'd like to hear more about it.

Thanks,

Guy

For those of you that live in cold weather climes, what do you do about 4-season tents? Our troop (here in the northeast) is mostly equipped with 3-season tents, and I think it is somewhat of an impediment to winter camping.

thanks,

Guy

Nice work, 'fish...after going through 3 different packs, I've seen differing levels of dysfunction. It's nice to see and hear about a pack that does it right, as it is a reminder that the program really does work.

Our troop is a "shirt-only" troop (and it bugs me). When scoutstuff.org was blowing out older uniform styles last year (and I got some real bargains), I sent a link out to everyone in the troop. Not a single family jumped on the opportunity. Not even the kids that had outgrown their Webelos-era tan shirt, which were bursting at the seams. Not a single adult leader bought uniform pants (let alone short, socks, or hat).

I bought a second uniform, and switchbacks, and even a couple of activity shirts, which I think were awesome this year at summer camp when we had a week of 95+ days. I don't think I spent more than $50 for all of those together.