GKlose

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation, but let me relate our experience, which might be similar...

Our "feeder pack" (which doesn't necessarily always feed the entire Webelos group to us) was doing their Blue and Gold in June, as an "end of program year" awards ceremony. Over the course of several years, more and more dens timed their rank awards to coincide with the Blue and Gold. The last few years, the banquet had moved from early June to the end of June (then the pack goes on recess until October -- mostly because September is round-up month).

When we would get Webelos crossing over, they typically did not have time to camp with us prior to summer camp. Parents are in the Cubs mindset, therefore new Scouts didn't really show up to the troop until September.

We've tried as hard as we can to break this cycle...this year, we've had our first breakthrough. The new CC with the pack agrees with us that Webelos should transition sooner than the end of June, and they have a Webelos den leader this year that is ready to be done. So they've agreed to move up their Arrow of Light ceremony, and the crossover to the troop, to either February or March. We're really happy about that, and I've personally thanked both the CC and the WDL for helping us with this change. We'll see if we get more Scouts to summer camp this year. :-)

Guy

Thanks for all the input -- I find it interesting that it seems to be about 50-50, give or take a little. Given that, I'll probably not talk to the district advancement chair about it.

If I get a chance, I'll talk to our Scouts that have recently gone through these boards and if they have opinions on the matter, I'll post them here.

Thanks again --

Guy

Stosh -- an amazing incident. Would love to have observed it. I'd also be interested to hear if you think the board learned something from the incident, and if they modified how they approached later candidates.

Thanks,

Guy

I'd say that one was in what is sometimes referred to as "business casual" -- and the others pretty much in blue jeans, but no t-shirts. One guy in particular was kind of scruffy-looking, wearing blue jeans and a sweatshirt.

I will say this -- perhaps it is true they don't have silver tabs and have a district committee patch on their uniforms at home. To a Scout, even an Eagle candidate, I don't think that would matter much. I don't think they notice, or grok the concept of, tab color and position patch. They are just going to think "council", maybe, and treat them pretty much like any other Scouter they don't know.

I will probably mull this over (and pay attention to the responses here) for awhile...I may send a note or call the district advancement chair (the guy who was "business casual"). I'm also starting to think about volunteering for this board -- I'm on the district committee as a member-at-large, and I've been asked to find a defined role. Might be better to try and fix this from the inside.

Guy

In the past, I've sat on just one Eagle Scout Board of Review, which had been held at the troop level with a district advancement committee representative. Since then, our council advancement committee worked on a common set of procedures now in place with district advancement committees. The new procedure calls for a district advancement committee board, and a Scoutmaster as observer is permitted. I sat in such a role last night, not as a Scoutmaster, but in lieu of, because the Scoutmaster is related to the candidate. He was on premise and was called in to hear the board results.

Of course, I have several observations about the board, but there is one that bothers me in particular. Last night, because of the number of candidates involved, two simultaneous boards were running, each with 3 Scouters (not counting the observers, like me). Of those six Scouters, not one of them was in uniform. The candidates were, of course, because the council Eagle Scout procedures tell them to. The observers were -- I can speak for myself by saying that I respect the process enough that I absolutely would wear a uniform, and didn't consider otherwise.

So what do the collective you think? Am I being a "uniform police" by being bothered by this?

Guy

Come to think of it -- the last time I was in a patrol (or saw a patrol) that camped at least 300' from another patrol was when I was in a Brownsea 22 course, August 1976. :-) In fact, I'm not sure I knew how close the next patrol was -- we never saw anyone else, except in the parade field.

Contrast that to my son's relatively recent experience with Brownsea 22 (one of the few councils that still uses the old syllabus for this course -- independent of the NYLT course that's run)...I think they had 6 patrols, 3 each in two campsites, putting them about, what, 15 feet apart? :-)

We added a new advancement chair in the troop a couple of years ago, who has kept up our Troopmaster records. Now, when we are processing a new Eagle application, he prints out an advancement report to include with the application, so that council has two sources of information in case their records are off (I have no idea how often that happens).

But, as an MB counselor, I've kept all blue card stubs, and I've encouraged my sons to put together a binder for keeping their stubs. At some point, though, I would like to check what the council has recorded for them. I can't swear that every CS pack and that every advancement report has kept on top of this paperwork.

Guy

I wasn't trying to be coy, I was just hoping to minimize the "acting like a shill" part...

The camp we've attended the last two summers is Camp Bell, in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire, which is part of the Griswold Scout Reservation, Daniel Webster Council. The website is here: http://www.nhscouting.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=11456&orgkey=1812

Honestly, I am so enamored of the camp, that I am hard-pressed to think of a negative. Some people may be a little put off by it because it is so rustic (there are really only just a few structures in camp). Program areas are typically nothing more than a couple of picnic tables and a dining fly. There is no dining hall (there is an administration building, with a small trading post window, and a commissary and the nurse's office). There is a stable and paddock, a very nice climbing barn, and a relatively new shower house next to the campsites. There are a few staff cabins, which are also rented out in the winter.

I've repeated often, "I love the hill!". The campsites are all on top of a small hill, up from the main parking lot and administration building. Car-camping troops that like to drive in and out and unload equipment will probably be disappointed. The camp asks that you pack in and out (they provide pretty much all patrol cooking equipment, tables and flies) -- but they do allow one vehicle to drive up (and lots of troops do bring their trailers for the week).

Some troops will be disappointed that it is not a merit badge mill. There are about 20 possible day programs, in about 5 program areas, and not too many merit badges offered (and most merit badges would only end up being partials). The Camp Bell Leader's Guide explains all of this.

Camp Staff is "skeletal" for lack of a better word. Program areas are staffed by one or two staff members, and the commissioner staff tends to float from program area to program area as needed. A couple of examples to illustrate: the camp was planning on having two "wranglers" on staff this summer, but one got a better offer at the last minute. So there was only one wrangler. One member of the commissioner staff would accompany during trail rides. Another example: some days the waterfront is loaded up with patrols: some working on instructional swimming or swimming merit badge, some sailing, some kayaking or snorkeling, some building rafts for a "castaway outpost" that night. Since they don't do swim checks on Sunday afternoons, they open each morning by cycling everyone who needs a swim check that day. You'll find the camp director, the program director and other commissioners there, assisting with the morning swim checks. By 9:30am, they are all on their way to whatever else they had to do that day. All in all, I counted about 20 staff members total. For this camp, 120 Scouts in camp is a pretty heavy load.

I'm not sure how many total campsites there are, but as an example, we shared a campsite with another troop -- they had two patrols, and we had one patrol. Other adjacent campsites had troops with two patrols each.

Although we could have carted up a troop trailer, we didn't. We just brought the minimum that we needed: one lantern, a first aid kit, the troop flag, a couple of water containers. From last year's experience, I remembered to bring some extra zip-locks, a roll of paper towels and some extra vegetable oil (the camp-supplied griddle needed a little bit of TLC).

Anyway -- I love this camp. Of the camps I've visited, I think this is the best I've seen. But -- it will not be for everyone. There are some troops that only want summer camp for advancement, and this isn't necessarily the one for them. For building and reinforcing patrol spirit, and the patrol method, this is a great camp.

Cost is about on-par with other camps in the area. I think this year's rates were about $350 to $375 (there are all sorts of discounts available). In this area, regular program camps don't usually go below $300 or so. The northeast is expensive, no doubt about it.

Guy

Now that I've read the other responses to this thread :-), I was reminded that we were also part of a small pack that folded. They did cakes too, but at their B&G -- they brought raw materials (a couple of plain cakes, some icing and then other decorations) and then Cubs and siblings tried to outdo each other in terms of decoration, on the spot. Usually they just created big messes, but they had lots of fun doing it. It didn't matter the finished cakes didn't look so edible, they just had fun.

We belonged to a pack that had annual bake-offs. They were okay, at first, but then I kind of got bored with them. I heard of another pack that stopped them because they became over-the-top adults trying to out-do each other without Cubs really involved. Sound like a Pinewood Derby? :-)

So I suggest having fun awards with categories out of the ordinary. Don't crown a "Best", but have categories like: Most Chocolatey, Least Chocolatey, Most Creative, Best Sports Theme, Best Scout Theme, etc. Maybe even some Honorable Mention categories for the cakes that really are obviously Cub-built. If you think the contest will be dominated by adult-built cakes, try the PWD idea of creating an adult category, or sibling category.

My Cubs, at the time, had assistance from Mom to build the base cakes they made, but decoration was all on their own, of their own design. One decided to do an over-the-top chocolate bomb, with oreos, chocolate piece, chocolate cake and icing, sprinkles/jimmies and anything else he could think of. My other son did a camping "scene" with a fake fire (logs from pretzel sticks) and Teddy Graham campers. It was cute. I have no recall if they won awards or not, but then again that wasn't so important in this pack.

We'd make a big deal about judging (meeting place is a school, and some teachers were invited to judge) and then after that, anyone could sample anything. Most kids just wanted to sample their own.

Guy

I really like the system at the camp we attend -- sure, our council has "patrol cooking" (with a commissary list; and I'm sure that if we just wanted to bring our own food, they'd assist us in anyway possible). And I would agree -- in that system, you miss out on the communications at assemblies and in the dining hall after meals. The place where we go -- the assemblies/flag ceremonies are at different times (8:45am, just prior to morning program start, and at 6:45pm, just prior to evening program start).

Just in case anyone is curious -- the patrol-oriented camp where we attend has a commissary, with fairly high A/C and large walk-ins, and tons of large coolers (100+ qt size). We get two deliveries a day, at a central site near every campsite. 6:30am, we get a cooler that contains breakfast and lunch food. Cooling is, more or less, provided by frozen milk half-pints and frozen juice containers. When they're set out, they typically thaw by mealtime. A frozen juice bag is meant to be packed with your lunch (I've made a mental note to bring an insulated lunch bag for next year -- forgot to do it this year). Breakfasts are standard camp breakfasts -- pancakes, french toast, egg sandwiches, etc. Or you can custom order from a commissary list. Lunches are usually some kind of lunch meat and cheese, apples or oranges, cookies, chips, something like that. We get a small delivery of paper bags and zip-locks to go with them. Every kid packs the lunch and carries it to their program area for the day. The staff member(s) at the program area have already pre-packed their lunch that same morning, and sit with Scouts for lunch, at their program areas. Adults don't get lunch out of the morning cooler, rather they meet at a central site, meet with commissioners and camp director or program director, and pack their lunch there.

The commissary staff comes in mornings only, I think. They pack dinner coolers and the next morning's breakfast/lunch coolers. They are very nice, and accommodating, and I've dropped in several mornings to do things like make modifications (one hot week, for example, none of us were drinking cocoa, so I removed it from our request list) or to check labels (we have a kid with a dairy/egg allergy that can't eat quite a bit of processed food or baked goods).

The commissioner staff takes care of the coolers in the afternoons and mornings. At 4:30pm, they pick up dinner coolers and deliver them to the "comm site" in the middle of all the campsites. They carry the empty ones back to the commissary later on, and then in the morning, they take care of loading and delivering the morning coolers. Honestly, the camp is small enough that they could make individual cooler deliveries at every campsite, but I like the system they have. With delivery to the central comm site, buddy pairs have to plan in advance to pick up the cooler at the right time.

Our first year doing this, it was awkward. Our Scouts didn't know what to expect. This last year went much smoother. With a food pickup by 6:30am, we were done with breakfast, and cleaned up, by 7:30am. The *only* awkward part was that we were to have a staff member or two eat breakfast with us, and they would show up any time between 7:45am and 8:15am. I talked to the camp directory about this, but he told us not to worry about the staff member. They always have a "plan B" when it comes to eating. I didn't like that so much. I'd rather that they were with us having breakfast at 7:15am. But the camp director has to worry about their off-hours (for example, a late night staff meeting might mean they are up late the next morning). We still had "idle time" from about 7:30am until morning assembly at 8:45am. Program starts at 9am.

Same thing in the afternoon. Food delivery at 4:30pm (the day's program ends at 3:30pm, free time -- open swim, etc, from 3:30pm to 4:30pm). There wasn't a single dinner that took longer than an hour to prep -- so it was a trick to time it so that we were done, roughly around 6pm, eat and then clean up. Evening assembly at 6:45pm, evening program at 7pm. There was plenty of time to get that all done.

Here's the thing, though, which I think I pointed out in the prior note. This isn't an advancement-oriented camp. They don't have individual merit badge classes. But patrol can work on certain merit badges in certain program areas. For example, I heard of a new Scout patrol that worked on Swimming merit badge at the waterfront. Our guys worked on Wilderness Survival, Climbing, Watersports and Horsemanship (earning 4 partials -- they're working on finishing them up with other counselors now).

Guy

We found a camp, in an adjacent council, that is truly patrol-oriented. When I told my old DE about it, he asked, "why not go to our camp? you can do patrol cooking there..."

I answered that patrol-oriented is way more than just patrol cooking. I also asked him if he'd ever visited the camp. He said no, and basically asked why he'd want to. Silly me, I thought checking out your competition would be routine. It certainly is in my world.

Anyway -- patrol cooking at this camp. Works well -- there is a standard menu, and also a commissary list where you can choose deviations if you'd like. I noticed this last year, though, they are somewhat stingy with the protein. Equivalent of 1 egg for breakfast, or 3 ounces of protein (per person) for lunch/dinner. You have a patrol of teens, though, and they're going to feel underfed.

On the other hand, I've run into many SMs who basically say "I don't want my guys to spend their time at summer camp cooking and cleaning." But I counter with the idea that absolutely no program time or free time (open swim, etc) is lost in this camp. What you lose is what I call idle time. That's the time where nothing is going on in camp, and Scouts are usually in their campsites. During those times, two Scouts might be cooking, two might be working on sweeping the latrine, or refilling fire buckets. That sort of thing. Or just sitting around. There's less of that than when we went to a regular program camp.

Another big difference about this camp -- daily program areas are visited by the patrol, not by individual scouts. They do not cater to individual merit badge class schedules. Instead, the patrol might choose a daily program based on either a merit badge they'd like to work on, or just on fun. For example, this year our guys worked on four merit badges (over five days): Horsemanship, Wilderness Survival, Watersports and Climbing. They didn't complete requirements in any single MB, but they made fairly good progress in each. The fifth day was something like a low COPE course. Teambuilding games and exercises, and an obstacle course to run. They had a great week, and worked together well as a group (because they'd done this last year, they could typically cook, eat and clean up in about the same time as they'd wait in a morning assembly, meal time and announcements afterward). Did they miss the campwide assembly time? No, because we had an assembly prior to morning program and prior to evening program, every day. About the only thing they didn't get is the after-meal singing/shouting that happens in a dining hall. But they did get some of that at the campwide campfires.

I've been to five different camps, and I'd rate this one patrol-oriented camp as the best I've ever experienced. I couldn't possibly argue that it is one of the best camps in the country, or even in the area, but I think it is the best I've seen.

Guy

As a district membership chair, I put together a roundtable presentation on "spring recruiting" for Cub Scout packs. In it, I made the point that it makes no sense to do spring recruiting unless a pack has a summer program. The rest of the talk (in fact, the bulk of the talk) is about running a summer program. I did this because I was getting the sense that most packs in our district were "academic year" Cub Scout packs. I used every bit of ammunition I could think of (Scouting outdoors is a whole lot more fun, it's easy to put together a few simple ideas, take advantage of local events such as a minor league baseball team, etc.).

Afterward, one CM comes up to me and says "you don't understand -- after the end of our 'Cub Scout Year', *I* want a break."

Anyway -- I try to focus on positive things. You had 5 families that were interested in doing things over the summer! That's great. There's not much you can do for the ones that don't want to show up or can't show up. Mix it up next year with some different events, and maybe you'll get a few more.

Guy

I've seen way too many packs where adults assume that the title "Cubmaster" means that it is a one-man/woman show, and that they run the pack. In the cases I've seen, that usually leads to trouble when either the Cubmaster burns out or wishes to move on (to Scouts, for example, with their son). Our "feeder pack" is going through such a transition right now.

I think it would be refreshing that a strong CC step forward and strive to run things the right way, and take care of the administrative tasks associated with a pack, freeing the Cubmaster to concentrate on things related to program.

On the other hand, I can see your point that an overbearing CC might cause issues, stepping on toes in the process. I think there's a balance in there. But the real problem (the way I see it) isn't that the CC wants to own the administrative and organizational issues, it's just their approach, right?

B-Skip, about the cooking. You can find the entire Philmont menu online (complete with nutrition information, which is critical for us -- we have a Scout with a dairy and egg allergy, and he desperately wants to go to Philmont). Although it's been awhile since I've read through it, some of their menu is not the "add boiling water and wait" type of cooking. Some of it requires actual cooking. So you're not necessarily going to find that the simplicity of freezer bag cooking correlates.

BTW, if you do a google search on "Philmont+ultralight" you'll see a couple of good resources.

Guy

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Philmont guidebook spells out pretty clearly the policy against single-person tents (even for adults) on their treks.

Guy

I've been working on breaking old patterns the last couple of years -- our Scouts had lapsed into a pattern of two years at regular summer camp and then a year or two at "Eagle Week". We haven't seen older Scouts at regular camp in a long time. Along the way, summer camp became all about earning MBs and less about having fun.

But this year, the transformation was almost complete. We've actually been out three weeks. First week of July, we were at a patrol-oriented camp for the second year in a row. The few who signed up had great fun with horseback riding, a day in the climbing barn, water skiing and tubing, a wilderness survival overnight and a day at "challenge valley" which has the "extreme obstacle course" (which is guaranteed to get them muddy).

We were home for a week, and then the troop went to a regular program-oriented camp (I billed this as "it's just like Eagle Week, but the whole troop can go") where they had three MB classes in the morning, and troop activities in the afternoon. Our SPL had wisely steered the afternoon activities to focus on water-based activities -- it was 95+ and humid all week long. They had great fun with kayaking, canoeing, "assault boats" (swamp their neighbors' canoes), water basketball, ultimate frisbee and an afternoon hike.

We were then home for a week, and then we left for a high adventure trip, canoeing in Maine. Just got back from that this last weekend. Most of the guys on the trip had never been that remote in their life, we had great weather, and we saw less than 10 people total the entire time we were on the water. However, we only saw one moose. As I was trying to motion our guys to keep quiet, the ones up front were yelling back to the others, "look! a moose!". Mrs. Cow Moose ambled up the back and out of sight. Oh well, suburban kids...what can you do... :-)

Our troop has about 28 Scouts, around 18 active, and we had 10 different Scouts on these three trips (7 at the first, 9 at the second, and 8 on this last one). The best part, though, is that 5 went on all three trips. I'm hoping that the spirit of having fun in the summer (without concentrating on MBs) has been rekindled in them.

Guy

Our troop just got back from a camp (new to us) that has a Mile Swim program I haven't seen before. They do "qualifications". On Monday, they have everyone interested in the Mile Swim do a 1/4 mile qualification swim during the afternoon free swim period. On Thursday, those who have qualified are asked to swim a 1/2 mile qualifier. Anyone who gets through both of those are then allowed to swim the Mile Swim on Thursday afternoon.

I suppose you could argue that it is adding to the requirements to have to swim a total of 1-3/4 miles over three days, but the practical aspect of it is that the qualifiers are used to weed out those who are serious about it and capable. I think we had 6 Scouts start out, and ultimately 4 qualified and succeeded. The only complaint I heard was from one Scout, who finished pretty close to last, who had been paired with a very slow swimmer buddy (not from our troop). Our guy had to stop frequently, and tread water, waiting for the other swimmer.

Guy

Years ago, there used to be a shelf-stable "squeeze cheese" type product, in the same aisle as the cans of spray cheese. I haven't seen it in years, though.

If you want to explore the world of cheese powders, here is yet another link:

http://www.thespicehouse.com/spices/cheddar-cheese-powder

Guy

We had a similar situation, but Scouts ended up with partials -- but the story takes some setup. We go to a patrol-oriented camp, where program is based on what a patrol chooses to do for the day. Our guys decided to sign up for the "Wilderness Survival" program, which is a day-long program and an overnight (in the shelters they built). The intention of the program is they earn most, if not all, of the Wilderness Survival merit badge.

In this case, the patrol is 7 Scouts. Two already have the merit badge, one had a partial, lacking on the overnight, and four others were starting it from scratch. The program started after breakfast, and most of the morning was a similar lecture, talking about first aid, rescue, signals, fires, etc. During the morning, they all built fires, with either flint and steel or a magnesium starter, and several attempted use of a magnifying glass. After lunch they built shelters during the afternoon. The instructor allowed buddy pairs to build shelters. His parameters were that he would allow warm clothing, rain gear and whatever is in your pockets (the smart ones brought bug spray). No sleeping bags or ground cloths.

The one Scout with the partial finished (he only lacked the overnight -- here's his backstory: he worked on the merit badge at another camp, including the shelter building -- he got the partial because the night of his overnight, it started to storm heavily, and he and his buddy bailed on the overnight). The four Scouts starting fresh were credited for most things, except were only credited with starting one fire each, not three fires each. I'm not sure what else they are lacking for completion. Their PL for the week is talking about contacting a counselor so they can all finish.

Guy

Another thought -- Howe Caverns in upstate NY has a Scout program. That almost meets your 3-hour limit, depending upon your whereabouts in NH.

This also just came to me -- there is an "aerial adventure park" (zip-lines, bridges, etc) that is in Western MA. It didn't seem that expensive for a day pass (on par with Battleship Cove overnights, as I recall). However, I can't remember the name of the place. It looked like a lot of fun, with appropriate structures for all ages.

Yankee Clipper Council cubs have a program with the Higgins Armory in Worcester (http://www.higgins.org/) -- there has also been an overnight with one of the "minor league" hockey teams in Lowell (I think the team is gone now, but I'm not sure if another team/arena picked up the overnight). The Lowell Spinners also have an overnight on their field. Maybe the Manchester team does too.

At a University of Scouting session on backpacking food, our instructor showed us examples of many things he'd made and dehydrated himself, using his home oven. I recall that his instructions weren't all that difficult (180F oven, door propped open, several hours). He said that you can pretty much dehydrate anything (I would guess that something with a lot of water, like a tomato sauce, would take a very long time).

Also -- I know there are online plans for making your own dehydrator.

I'm curious -- have you asked the Troopmaster people the differences between the PC and web versions, or have you asked when their features would be on par?

The reason why I bring it up -- I've had several email conversations with SOAR, and some of my ideas were either in the works already, or have been promised in their release cycle.

Guy

Of all the MBs that I counsel, Cooking MB is the only one that has first aid requirements. At first I thought it was kind of silly, but now I'm on-board with it. When I have my initial discussions with a Scout, I'll always ask what kinds of things can go wrong in a kitchen, and then I'll lead them through a fairly thorough discussion of likely kitchen injuries (hey, why are kitchen knives supposed to be sharp?), sanitation and food-borne illnesses. If I get a sense that they don't know, for example, why some foods should be thoroughly cooked, I'll ask them to read up on microbes like salmonella and e. coli, and then tell them we'll continue the discussion the next time.

Guy