GKlose

"A week of working as a team to prepare meals and clean up is one of the best excercises the boys can experience."

I agree, 100%. I've often said "there is no better team-building exercise than to try and pull off a meal together as a group" (and by that I mean from planning all the way through to cleanup). For that reason, our troop specifically chose a patrol-oriented summer camp last year (and not just patrol cooking!) and will be returning this year.

That was perhaps my biggest complaint about the adult-led troop method...if adults do all the planning, purchasing (SM loves to shop at Costco) and preparation, what are Scouts really learning?

At a cooking competition, at a camporee, I was a judge circulating around to observe groups that were cooking. I was looking for participation, sanitation, etc. One Webelos-III style troop that I saw -- a dad was hovering over the patrol cook, observing every move, and giving direction whenever the Scout looked up, which was often.

Guy

I'd definitely like to jump in on Neil's comment --

In the process of trying to jumpstart the patrol method in a troop that didn't know the state it had worked itself into, I've probably spent more time pulling adults aside and telling them "let them do it" than anything else.

Most recent example -- our "senior" guys were attempting to set up a tarp. The troop has had one of those carport monstrosities for a few years and we have a crop of kids who can't tie a taut line hitch, and don't know what a two half hitches is for, or a sheet bend (one Life Scout lengthened a rope by tying another rope to it, with a square knot -- he told me "but it's the 'joining knot'").

They were indeed struggling -- the SM couldn't help himself. After about 90 seconds, he was in the middle of it barking out orders. I had to pull him away twice. He said "but they're doing it wrong!" I said, "they aren't going to learn if you keep telling them how to do it." One of the Scouts is his (new) Eagle Son. :-)

Guy

"3. Parents who carry their son into the Eagle's nest by providing aid and assistance as needed."

I see two versions of this...

Let me begin with a short story. A friend, years ago, tells me about the way his dad treated him when he was a kid. Dad would get frustrated watching his kid do something, such as trying to hammer together a bird house. Dad would take away the hammer from the kid, do it himself, and then afterward say "look what you did!".

So I see #3 as splitting into two parts, and I've seen both on recent Eagle projects in our troop. One parent did provide aid and assistance as needed, probably with some aggressive nagging involved (due to the impending "aging out"). The other parent pretty much did the project, by choosing the project, arranging the work crew, scheduling everything and everyone, and probably directed the work day (I don't know about that part, as I wasn't there, but I am guessing based on past history). Since I coordinate the troop's online calendar, I received email allegedly written by the Scout, but it came from the parent's account. The text was not constructed in a way that I would attribute to a 17-yr-old. Like my friend with the dad and the hammer, I think this project is a kind of a "look what you did" scenario.

Guy

I'm in line with what the others have posted here, but I'd like to add something from my perspective. Another adult leader (our next SM) and I have been working for about 18 months rebuilding the patrol method in a troop that was 100% adult-led advancement-oriented troop method. There were a lot of reasons for that, but I'll skip those now.

You've got a great opportunity here, that is to do it right from the start. I like the 3rd edition Greenbar Bill SM Handbook idea (I bought a set myself), and I've also learned quite a bit from Kudu's site.

With 8-10 Scouts, I'd suggest keeping it simple, just like the others have suggested. One patrol, one PL and a quartermaster. Let them be responsible for outing planning, and the annual calendar. Train them, and encourage them to think big. But they will learn tons more if they do it themselves.

Personally, I'd stay away from car-camping concepts (patrol boxes, carports, etc) and take them on "backcountry" trips from the start. Like Kudu says, a "backcountry" trip might be a half mile off a main road for their first few trips.

A few years back, I was talking with my boyhood SM, who was only 23 or so when he started the troop, and was 25 at the time I had joined. We had a great troop, tons of adventure and fun, so I asked him how he knew how to do that. He responded, "I didn't -- I took training, read the SM handbook, and then tried to put that into practice." I guess I should point out that it was probably a Greenbar Bill handbook, because this would have been 1969 or so when he started the troop.

Guy

Maybe it's just the Membership part of me, but I see a perfect opportunity here :-), right in line with BSA policy and no hurt feelings...

MIB, T/S and Dad -- why not start a venturing crew? MIB and T/S can provide crew leadership (and outdoor coordination) while Dad can sit back as Crew Adviser and watch the fun happen. Same CO/COR if you really want to keep working with them. In due time, if the troop needs assistance, you're always able to step back into those roles. Once the wedding happens, you're in-line to be a co-ed crew advisor team...works well for a couple that I know in our district, who wanted to bring more young women into the scouting program.

But if the bridge is already burned, you can always start up the crew elsewhere.

The byproduct is that your DE will love you for starting up a new unit.

Food for thought...

Guy

I was at an event this weekend (in the northeast), weather wasn't too bad, except that high winds were throwing everyone for a loop. I couldn't tell you how fast the gusts were, but they were bad enough that we just took down our fly rather than to keep worrying about stake pulling out, etc.

Most of the bigger tents were being given fits too, because wind could get up under the fly, inflate it, and then start pulling on those stakes too.

The one tent that was doing very well is an Alps Mountaineering tent (it may be an Extreme 2), which sits low to the ground and has a fly that goes all the way down.

Not that I'm trying to shill for them, but I've bought a handful of things from Alps Mountaineering's Scout Direct program, and I've been happy with every purchase so far. I wish that they'd disclose shipping charges on their form, but other than that, an extremely satisfied customer.

Guy

I stumbled across this link while taking a look at Lego Mindstorms:

http://www.legoeducation.us/sharedimages/PDF/BoyScout17x11emailer.pdf

The brief version is that Lego seems to be offering a Mindstorms and software package at a slight discount to Scouts.

Guy

I think that's kind of funny, SP, considering that I've been to a couple of KCBS barbecue competitions this last year. They've been regional competitions, with some people coming from maybe 6 hours away. Of course there are some people who travel in RVs, and quite a few teams that haul smokers on trailers, but I've also seen a few cargo trailers that are outfitted quite nicely. One of them more or less has a kitchen inside the trailer, complete with stainless steel counters, and room to wheel in a custom-built smoker. Another guy is really funny -- his trailer is smaller, and he has just a couple of smaller bullet smokers, but he hauls (more or less) a "living room" out of his trailer -- an easy overstuffed chair, a lamp and a side table.

The guy I compete with -- he bought a very nice folding chair (an REI "zero-gravity" chair, I think) and came up with a novel solution to hold his beverage: he plants an inverted plunger in the ground next to his chair -- there's room to put a few ice cubes in the plunger and then it holds a bottle. It is quite an "attention getter" accessory. :-)

Guy

I'm thinking about taking over the FoS presentation for our troop this next year, because of this year's experience. The FoS-trained volunteer's message was just way too long, and I think missed the point (I should probably give that feedback to the district or council FoS chair that developed the presentation). Honestly, I think a shorter presentation to parents, with a quick one-on-one with the parents that don't show, would probably have a better yield, to be blunt. As it stands how, only about 25% of the families in the troop have donated. We're pretty low-key, we don't sell popcorn and we only have been doing two other "low impact" fundraisers a year.

Guy

I didn't even think of checking until now, but the Tooth of Time Traders (Philmont Trading Post) has a listing of fuel canisters on its website: http://www.toothoftimetraders.com/philmont/dept.asp?s_id=0&dept_name=Fuel+Canister&dept_id=7016

On that same page, they mention that fuel canisters can be purchased at a few backcountry camps (Ponil, Baldy Town, Ute Gulch and Phillips Junction).

I am curious too -- I recall reading something, a couple of years ago, that said that Philmont provided two choices for fuel: white gas or Coleman PowerMax canisters. Now that the PowerMax is kind of outdated, I wonder if Philmont has changed the policy.

Guy

In my course, the Fox Patrol would yell "FRIENDS OF XYLOPONES! Yip yip yip yip...". Nobody understood it, and they eventually had to explain that F.O.X. could stand for Friends of Xylophones. Smirk-inducing.

I'm in the Owl Patrol -- we never got past "WHO?" for our patrol yell.

Guy

Does sound rather ham-handed, I think. I can't recall where it was our DE or our SE that sent out the letter, but recently there was a letter sent out to families that specifically mentioned a $ amount (such as "it costs the council about $200 per scout to run Scouting in this council") and directly asked for that amount from every family that received the letter. The letter, I've heard, was not sent to families that had already donated.

In the last two years, our DE has asked us to host FoS presentations, and both years I've scheduled "parent meetings" for the presentation (rather than having the presentation during a CoH, as the DE asked). Both times, rookie presenters have been sent out. The first year, the presentation was very brief, about 5 minutes, and I told everyone else there (about 1/3 of troop families were represented) that the annual registration fee doesn't go to the local council so they must fundraise for everything the council provides (offices, scout shop, camps, etc). The meeting was over quickly.

This year, the rookie had been "trained" -- the council went through a training session to make sure FoS presenters all had the same message. The presentation was almost a half hour! I could see parents getting visibly antsy as the presentation went on and on. I don't think it made any difference in terms of total donations.

Guy

We've got a CoH/ECoH coming up in a few weeks. Our two Eagles (the dads are CC and SM) and the others did not have a problem with two CoHs -- the Eagle CoH by itself may take 20 minutes or so, so why not add an extra 15 minutes on top to recognize those who earned something since the prior CoH?

One thing our SM has done in the past has been to do a symbolic closing of the CoH in order to do a symbolic ECoH. Just a statement really, and I think it is kind of silly on a pomp & circumstance front. Since it is his son this time around, I'm not going to argue. We were going over the script at a committee meeting last night. I suggested editing out a few minutes of "blah blah blah" :-) so that we weren't artificially extending the ceremony.

As an aside -- it was an overwrought script with what I call "context switches" -- the SPL does a welcome, tosses the opening to two different scouts (pledge/oath & law), then tosses it to an MC, who then tosses it to a pastor for an invocation, and then tosses it back to someone else, who tosses it to someone else. So I was more or less suggesting that the SPL act as the MC who would then toss it to our advancement chair (an Eagle; soon to be our next SM) for the Eagle Ceremony. I actually cut at least two "context switches" out of the picture. I cut myself out of the original MC duties, not because I had a problem with handling those duties, but just because I didn't want to belabor the whole ceremony. The SPL will do a great job on his own. I'm supposed to see a reworked script today or tomorrow.

(the hardest single part of jump-starting a troop on youth-led patrol method has been to convince the adult leadership to take a step back -- had to work on the SM again the other night!)

Guy

"The Experiential Education folks GKlose mentions wouldn't buy into EDGE, and as diverse as they are I reckon you'd be hard pressed to find anything like it in their materials."

Proof by assertion, Beav?

My point was, and I think that you missed, was that a Google search on "see one, do one, teach one" (which arguably is just a simpler view of EDGE) popped up the link on experiential education, of which there are many forms. So I don't get how you jump to the conclusion that experiential education folks (whomever they might be) wouldn't buy into this or that, or have nothing in their materials (whatever those might be). One of my other points, which I will agree was well-disguised, is that I was a co-op student many years ago -- cooperative education is a type of experiential education, and in fact, I would make the argument that it was very much like EDGE (seeing as how I spent three full years alternating equal amounts of time in the classroom with professional experience that directly related). Practical and effective, I would also argue.

So here's my assertion -- if the Experiential Education folks were ever introduced to the EDGE folks (the BSA "curriculum designers", whoever they might be), I think they would be kindred spirits and hit it off quite well, and the Experiential Education folks would most likely agree that EDGE is a form of EE, and would certainly add it to their materials.

Guy

Just for grins, I did a Google search on "see one do one teach one", and this link popped up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiential_education

The first time I recall hearing that phrase was from Steve Thomas on "This Old House" (gratuitous name drop: the videographer on TOH is one of our troop dads), many years ago, where he said something like "oh, the old 'see one, do one, teach one' method..."

So while the acronym EDGE may be primarily used by the BSA, the "experiential education" idea goes way back. The Wikipedia page even lists connections to outdoor education (and if you go to that page, it defines outdoor education as experiential education that takes place in, or about, the outdoors).

For the record, I'm a byproduct of yet another experiential education variation: cooperative education.

Guy

I just perused the Scout's Outdoor Cookbook in a store, and found it (on first glance) to be really interesting. So I ordered it on Amazon (about $10.50). Should be here in a few days.

With a resource like that, foil cooking, box ovens, and dutch ovens, I think you'd be pretty well covered (except for backpacking, maybe).

About zip-lock "omelets" -- I knew about the link on their website, saying they are safe. No problem -- but my problem with them is that I think they're horrible! Especially when they are overcooked. Or worse, part overcooked, and parts still raw. Never cared for them at all. I would much prefer to have a hard- or soft-boiled egg, prepared in "nature's own packaging." At least with eggs you can do a dozen or so at a time, unlike with zip-locks.

Guy

qwazse -- I wasn't joking! (I know the timing was poor, but I don't really go for April Fools gags)

http://www.woodbadge.ws/employer/index.aspx

The problem is I can't remember where I read the bit about the redesign of the course to remove the royalties. I recall it saying that the curriculum was revised once, since it was first introduced.

The Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_Badge_%28Boy_Scouts_of_America%29 under "More recent modifications") says some of this, but that isn't where I orginally read it.

Guy

I've put together a notebook (with "evidentials") to hand over to my Troop Guide this next week. There were a few items that needed confirmation from other Scouters, so I had them send the TG and me email to confirm. I figure since the TG knows all of these people, he could always call them, if necessary.

Last night, I was on the phone with another TG from the same course, but on a different matter. When the subject came up, he told me that with his patrol, he is doing everything by email, and he's fine with that.

Looking back, I probably should have put more thought into the "verifiable" aspect of my goals. Not that I had any real problems, but I think some thought up front could have made the whole process just a little easier.

Guy

(done, but waiting for confirmation)

(NE-I-267 Owl)

I can't recall where I saw it online, but I saw a reference sheet listing the various works used to help develop the original version of WB21C (Blanchard et al). I reviewed a bunch of those works prior to starting my WB21C course 18 months ago.

Along the way, someone said that WB21C was reformulated to remove some of the content that required royalties (Blanchard, for example), and that is pretty much what I witnessed in the course. Some of those concepts were still there, but in a repackaged form.

Guy

Let me second what The Beav says. Our troop has been in exactly this situation. Without effective youth leadership and patrols, the troop had lapsed into an adult-led advancement-oriented troop method type of troop. When I joined, I saw firsthand (at boards of review) that several Scouts were getting free passes on almost everything. The biggest two kickers were a case where two no-show scouts both got credit for being patrol leaders, with an inactive patrol. When one was listed as an assistant patrol leader, I asked the rest of the board why he was being given credit (well, they thought he'd been functioning as the PL). Then the other Scout also got credit for it. Another case -- a Scout was credited for passing 1st Class, even though I'd seen him twice fail the summer camp swim check.

It took multiple steps to correct these problems. The first of which was a new advancement chair that understood the issue. Boards of Review stopped being a free pass, through "gentle correction" and reminders beforehand. And yes, one dad did a shouting match (a one-way shouting episide) at a committee meeting, because it was suggested that his son would be the first to not immediately get credit for being a no-show.

A second step was the weekend training idea. Our Scouts had no idea what their role was to be in leading the troop, so we took a small group away for a weekend, and tried to teach them step-by-step. The natural leader of that group -- a Scout that I would have thought to be the chief troublemaker and hooligan -- stepped up his game. He really wanted to be SPL. He lives directly across the street from the advancement chair, who will shortly be named our next SM, so there has been a lot of one-on-one mentoring. This other adult and I have twice met the SPL for coaching sessions, and at the last troop meeting, the SPL asked me when we could meet again. He has single-handedly been revamping the other youth leadership of the troop, and has been holding patrol leaders to their expectations.

Of the patrol leaders, one went to the council's Brownsea program (the 1976 "All Out for Scouting" syllabus, one of the few left running this). Another patrol leader is of the "old guard". He thought he'd get a free pass, and doing nothing, because he is also involved in school sports. The new SPL is not letting him get away with that, and it's a struggle.

Our youngest Scouts, though, are starting to see youth leadership in action. I think that if we keep working with them, older Scouts will age out, and then we'll have the program rebuilt to some extent.

Guy

Personally, I find it interesting that in the last month, two Scouts in our troop have had accidents on outings, both required surgery (broken collarbone and ankle). Both were snowboarding.

One case was actually kind of funny, I think. Mom is on the troop committee and came in to our last meeting saying "I'm the worst mother in the world!". She went on to explain that her son had complained of ankle pain for a few days, she eventually called their pediatrician, who said that if the pain doesn't subside for another couple of days, then to go to an orthopedist (we actually have a former troop dad who has an orthopedic practice in town). Xrays showed the fracture.

I asked her if she repeatedly told her son to "suck it up", and while laughing about it, she said that she did.

Sometime long before my family arrived with our troop, someone had set up a system of half-uniforming (shirt only). Even the adult leaders only wear a shirt. The only exceptions are both of my sons, and me. I took advantage of reduced prices on Switchbacks last year, and bought some for all of us. My older son, going to the Jamboree, had to have a second uniform, and I also bought him the newest Scout shorts/swimtrunks (which I think my younger son might prefer).

By the way, when National was blowing out uniform parts online, I bought quite a few items (I really love the activity shirts I bought -- the nylon ones -- they are what the Centennial Uniform should have been!). I shared the link with all troop parents, multiple times, but to my knowledge nobody took advantage of the sale.

The overall problem, as I see it, is compounded when you have district training volunteers spread tribal folklore and myths (such as what I heard at LPST, "about uniforming...well, you have the shirt...and everything else is optional"). Our Woodbadge paperwork said that a full uniform was required, but I'd guess that only about 20 out of 40 participants (and I can't recall the staff uniforming) wore a full uniform.

I don't see full uniforming catching on with our troop at all. I had hoped that with my sons, an example might be set, and then others would follow. But just the opposite has occurred -- they don't want to be the only ones in full uniform (unless it is for an event where I tell them it is absolutely required).

Guy

I had a classmate that was in our after-school den (my mom was our den mother), circa 1970 or so. The last time I really had contact with him was when I was in a 7th grade "industrial arts" class with him. The instructor rode him hard. The instructor would announce that he always handed out 64s for Fs, because even a little bit of effort would bring the grade up to a passing 65. Then he'd make a showing of handing out all of the papers that had 64s. This kid from our den got a lot of these papers.

Many years later, after my college years, my mom sent several newspaper clippings to me. The kid was arrested, and later tried, for murdering his parents. The story, as I recall, was that these many years later, the parents had decided that it was time for a little tough love and refused to hand over money for drugs to him. He responded to them by bludgeoning them to death with a baseball bat. Afterward, he called the police and then sat down and waited for them.

It does make me sad. I remember him as being an okay kid. I don't recall anyone bullying him or anything like that, but I do have that distinct memory of shop class with him. I do wish that his story had a different outcome.

Guy

Schiff -- I know what you mean, but...

At this particular camp, it is almost as if the standard menu is designed a particular way. It has graduated complexity, where early in the week, even the youngest scouts can probably handle it without much direction. Later in the week, the menu is fairly challenging.

At the first night's dinner, their is a staff member with you, to take over the "training" of cooking and sanitation. The first night's campfire had a very cute song about the "three pot method" too.

Part of it is actually adult leader training too. On a transition night, adult leaders are out of the camp at a leader dinner, while scouts are left on their own for prepping dinner (staff members are in the campsites for coverage). We returned just in time to see a cleaned campsite and scouts running around all over camp in a wide game. Those with scouts on the younger side (like us) were amazed. We instantly knew that it was time to take a step back and let them run things themselves.

Can patrols do this all on their own? Sure...no problem. But I've run into so many scoutmasters that won't even consider this type of camp ("I don't want my scouts spending all their time cooking and cleaning up"). This is a reasonable system, and all menus can be customized, with the benefit of bulk (institutional) purchase.

Guy