GKlose

I counsel seven merit badges, based upon my vocation, avocation and hobbies/interests. Signed up 3 years ago, and was trained (twice). I've gotten calls on most of them. In order of popularity:

Music (about 10 scouts, 5 within the troop)

Genealogy (1 outside the troop, 4 within the troop)

Disabilities Awareness (4 within the troop)

Computers (2 within the troop)

Cooking (several starts, in and out of the troop, but only one from outside the troop has finished it)

Photography (1 within the troop)

Engineering (none)

My guess is that calls are fairly random...most of the Music MB Scouts have been on the young side, and it isn't a difficult MB to handle. I think Genealogy is pretty easy to do, too.

Cooking, to me, is fairly difficult. Lots of detail. I typically warn Scouts starting on it that there are a lot of details to handle and to read the requirements carefully. That's probably why I have so many starts and only one finished (the Scout that finished it was pretty focused and came prepared).

Guy

Barry's post:

"Great post and I'm glad to see it working. I am curious to how you are getting the adults to change. Your above comment is 90 percent of the problem of changing the troop culture. Its not that adults don't want to change, they just don't see where to change, and don't know the steps to getting there."

Barry, I wish I had some sort of magic formula that has worked 100% of the time. But I'm stumbling through it as best I can. I've figured, first of all, that I can't step on toes in the process. So I'm careful about what I say. In committee meetings, at first, I'd make comments and suggestions, some of which were pounced upon. So I'd look for another angle at the next meeting.

What I also figured out, with this particular group of adults, is that as long as they don't have to do anything extra, they're all for it. They didn't see, at first, the value behind sending a couple of youth leaders to council-level Brownsea Training (the old Brownsea, patrol method curriculum). They said "why can't we do that ourselves, and save the money?" So, in addition, I offered to organize a weekend TLT program.

Having an advocate on the committee really helped. One person trying to change troop culture is an annoyance. Two, on the other hand, then maybe the others catch on...

One standard suggestion is to make sure that other adults are trained. But our adults are almost all fully-trained. As Kudu has stated several times, how much are you really learning about youth leadership and patrol method at SM LPST? In my case, the guy teaching it barely mentioned it.

Occasionally, I've said some things to some dads that are overly involved with a group of Scouts, or with their own sons (issuing orders, so to speak). I've sort of quietly asked them to let these Scouts, or their son, to figure something out themselves. Sometimes that doesn't go over well, but that's my problem. I've got to figure out a better way to handle it.

When I figured out "we're working on it" (w.r.t. patrol method) wasn't really the case, I thought about stepwise progress. Our adults, and Scouts, haven't been able to give up adult-led advancement-oriented troop method in one big step. My advocate and I have both figured out that the oldest Scouts in our troop are pretty much a lost cause. They are not going to change their ways in the two years, or less, that they have left. It took some manipulation of the mid-level Scouts, the ones who have never had a youth leader role model in their time in the troop, to make some things start happening.

Quick story: committee meeting last week. One dad (father of PL of the younger-scout patrol), prior to the meeting, tells me that his son has lodged a complaint about the new SPL being kind of pushy and overbearing. We said we'd talk with him, but at the same time, I pointed out that the kid who is the newest SPL has to figure out how to do the job. He's a 16-yr-old who has never had, in the time he's been in the troop, an SPL that has been functioning. He's had no role model, and that we had to give him a little leeway to figure out how to do the job, and that yes, he'd be awkward at first.

(I have a couple of other stories that would make you shake your head in disbelief, be outraged that a group of Scout leaders would let happen, or make you smirk -- one of which was going on yesterday -- but I'll leave those for another time -- I want to see where yesterday's story is headed)

Guy

Our troop is smack-dab in the middle of a culture shift -- there are lots of reasons why we ended up where we are, but I think the important thing is that we're (finally) making step-wise progress.

Just after my son joined, and I asked about the patrol method, the SM responded "we're working on that." But in reality, everyone was fine with the status quo, which was adult-led troop method. I decided to take on the challenge, and it hasn't been easy. Everyone says "never attempt to take on a culture shift" but I'm hard-headed and I did.

I started with the troop committee. I didn't accept "we're working on that". I asked "what can we do to take a step closer?" and then started in on those steps.

The biggest single factor in our step-wise success was finding an advocate. A dad joined the committee, when his son joined the troop, and he sees things the same as I do. He's also an Eagle, and believes strongly in the patrol method.

Another step, and I have to admit to over-stepping with adult-led here, is that I insisted on sending our guys to a patrol-oriented summer camp this last year. Most of the older scouts don't go to summer camp anyway (they choose to go to Eagle Week, on a provisional basis). The younger guys don't really know any better, from one camp to another. Also -- we were completely without a functional PLC, a functional SPL, or functional patrols.

Step 2 was to do a weekend troop leader training, with prospective patrol leaders (the ones who wanted the title, for advancement reasons). At that weekend, which I organized, we reset expectations. Those who wanted to be a PL were told they now have "challenges", which include items such as "run your patrol according to National Honor Patrol criteria". They now have a benchmark to which they can relate.

Step 3 involved some more meddling. Our newly elected SPL was counseled heavily, and is now on the same page with respect to building patrol method. It isn't pretty yet, but it is an awful lot better than what it used to be. And honestly (and this is with a kid who is something of a wise guy, and has natural leadership tendencies, and draws others to his antics) he is far exceeding everything we hoped. In one short turn, he has completely revamped the PLC and youth leadership of the troop.

Step 3b was taking the kid who wasn't elected as SPL, but desperately wanted to be a leader, and asking him if he would like to invite all of our younger scouts to join a patrol with him. Then the younger scouts elected him PL. This one patrol is a complete restart of the patrol method from the ground up. We're prepared to mentor this PL, but honestly he is doing great all on his own.

The other patrol, all of the older do-nothing Scouts, has been the only remaining problem. Their newly-elected PL doesn't have time for the job, and refuses to do anything. In our new method, we've already had the SPL counsel him, and this last week, the outgoing SM and our new-to-be SM sat down with the SPL and this "problem" PL to work on expectations. I don't know what went on in their discussion, but I know the plan is that if he doesn't start making progress with his patrol (with respect to our expectations, which we communicated to him), then he could possibly be replaced before his six-month tenure.

It has been a struggle, but I think we're in a great place right now. In all honesty, what it has taken so far is to get other adults to step back, set up expectations with youth leaders, offer training, communicate often, turn the program over to them and then step back.

Along the way, I've learned that it is extremely easy to derail the rebuilding process. It takes a clear, consistent message coming from the adult leaders. We've even had some shouting going on in committee meetings. It wasn't pretty (it wasn't me shouting!). I've come to the conclusion that the personal adult agenda ("my son getting his Eagle") is probably the single biggest complicating factor. It has made me think deeply about my own personal agenda.

We have a long way to go, but we're in a good place now -- far better than what it had been.

Guy

I've always wondered about "drop and curl up" -- presumably, that wouldn't work too well if you've just finished eating a meal of grilled salmon, with your hands, and have happened to wipe your hands all over your clothes? :-)

It's funny, but of the five guys that I know that use a CPAP, not a single one of them is significantly overweight (well, one could lose about 10 lbs, but the others are all fairly lean). One of those guys didn't tolerate CPAP well, and had his entire jaw realigned, tonsils shaved, all sorts of things. After it was done, he said that he wished he hadn't done it.

There is an old thread, as others have pointed out -- one example was a CPAP machine that uses rechargeable batteries (the "Everest" model), and another example was a portable/rechargeable battery (made by Black and Decker) connected to the DC input on the CPAP machine. Another example was a 12v deep-cycle marine battery and another was the non-CPAP route (an "oral appliance" worn instead of using a CPAP). There are pluses and minuses to each. You can see some of these things on www.cpap.com (the Everest, for example), and there is an interesting online forum called www.cpaptalk.com, where there are quite a few threads about camping and backcountry solutions.

To me, the bottom line is that there are reasonable solutions for weekend camping and summer camp situations, and not-so-good solutions for backpacking (the oral appliance, maybe). But I'll raise a caution about one thing -- the cpaptalk.com forum is fairly brutal. Camping without some sort of therapy (CPAP, oral appliance, etc) is not acceptable. One risks cardiac arrest and possibly death, and that would put a damper on any Scouting event.

I recall earning T-1C prior to the '72 program revisions, and have no recollections of boards. I do have vague memories of boards after that, with committee members (and not other Scouts).

Our troop, until recently, was having a Scout sit on boards every now and then (the chair also had turned boards into "grilling sessions" that were routinely failed). I'm not sure when the practice started, but when I was chairing a Life board last year, there was a recently-minted Life scout that started to sit in on the same board. I thanked him and told him "we've got this." He said "okay" and left the room.

Guy

I find it interesting that the Western Mass document points units to camps in both NY and CT (and not to other camps in MA). Granted a couple of those are probably closer, but Rochester, NY certainly isn't.

Since I responded to this note, about a year ago, I've researched our local camps in much more detail, and I've come to the conclusion that it is a buyer's market. From where I sit, in NE Mass, I can think of at least 8 camps that are less than 90 minutes away, and I may be missing a couple.

After several years of going to our council camp, we broke ranks this year and went to an out-of-council patrol-oriented camp (Camp Bell, mentioned above, which is run by Daniel Webster Council). We had a fantastic experience, and will be returning this next year. We're also adding a week at another camp, for a regular MB program equivalent. For next year, we're looking to add a week at a Canadian scout camp.

Guy

Thanks -- in all my years of playing (I moved from a tbn 12C to an 11C years ago) I never knew there was overlap in the numbering.

Guy

pchadbo -- I just sent you a private message. There is also a really good online forum called cpaptalk.com, and there have been quite a few discussions about camping with a CPAP. There's also a story from someone who has tried using, somewhat successfully, an oral appliance called a PM Positioner.

Guy

I know this is unsolicited advice, but here's a view on the receiving end...

Two years ago, our Boy Scout summer camp promotions were done at roundtables by a Scout that was very nervous at making presentations. Things got much worse when he pulled out the video. It was like it was done by 10-yr-olds for an audience of 10-yr-olds. That isn't so bad, but when it goes on for 10+ minutes, that is too much for an adult to endure. I wasn't the only one that left the room for a few minutes.

So even though I thought that was bad, this last year was much worse. There was a more organized effort for camp promotions (CS and BS) -- half-hour presentations were done by both camp directors. After that, the council's camp promotions chair got up to reiterate points and to add in things he thought the other two forgot. An hour-and-a-half for what should have been 15 minutes max (color me jaded, but I think that troops that decide to go out of council have their reasons for doing so and aren't necessarily swayed by a hard sell -- likewise, those staying in camp already know and don't need to be sold...Cub camps, that's where you need the sales pitch -- Cub leaders turn over all the time, and need to be enlightened about the opportunities).

So my unsolicited advice: please don't hold a polite roundtable audience hostage. Please keep your pitch short and sweet. Keep it moving. Step aside, and be available for questions as needed.

Guy

There are units that do pay for their adult leaders' training, Woodbadge included.

Mine didn't, but then again, I didn't ask.

I expect to become a CC someday, and I plan on implementing the policy. If we have an adult leader willing to make the commitment for Woodbadge, the course fee is a small price to pay.

Guy

We use SOAR for our troop (along with Troopmaster), and have been quite happy. In fact, the biggest complaint I have, as the adult who brought in the idea and have set it up, is that our parents and scouts don't seem to want to deal with account names and passwords (but want the security -- go figure). I have to constantly remind parents of their accounts, and either give them instructions to reset their passwords and provide them new ones.

Anyway -- customer support. I've not called them. But I have sent them email multiple times, and I doubt I've ever waited more than two hours for a response. We've been very happy in that regard.

Here is a caution, which I learned the hard way: if you use Packmaster/Troopmaster to create your website accounts (and export/import of the data is really easy), keep everything up-to-date in Packmaster/Troopmaster. Don't do updates (for example, to email addresses, addresses, phone numbers, etc) in MyPack/MyTroop. All that gets overwritten when you do an import. We had a small problem with duplicate accounts being set up, but that was resolved after talking to tech support.

Instructions for setup? I've been able to set up everything we do just by using the online help pages. They are very informative. About the only feature we don't use is online payment -- I had a few questions about that, which were answered via email, and everything is fine (but we don't use online payment -- due to a CO policy against us having a PayPal account).

We we're pretty happy with it. Going into our third year as customers.

Guy

In the old days, we had ways of dealing with moms... :-)

There was a relatively new scout, but he was jr high school age, that joined the troop. His name was Chuck. One spring, a couple of days before a scheduled outing, there was an iffy forecast. Springtime in Ohio can be like that.

Our SM was a schoolteacher, so he didn't get home until after 3pm. Chuck's mom had tried calling him at home, that Friday afternoon, but didn't get through to him (there were no home answering machines in those days)...Chuck's mom started calling around, and what started with "is the troop still camping this weekend?" turned into "I'm not sure if the troop is camping..." which then turned into "the troop isn't camping", all without the benefit of actually talking to the SM. Chuck's mom didn't know that we're always out, no matter what the weather. But because of the confusion, there were quite a few no-shows.

It provided a great number of laughs for the troop, in later years. A question might be posed "is the campout still on?" and the answer would be "I don't know, let's ask Chuck's mom" and things like that. "So Chuck, does your mom say we're going camping this weekend, or not?". I'm not sure, but I think Chuck found this as funny as we did. But he probably also gave it back to his mom, too.

Would a teen these days say "Mom, don't ever do that to me again, I'll take care of it myself the next time"? A wise-guy 12 yr-old, maybe not, but a teen?

Guy

At least Mom didn't confront the SM, and demand that Timmy be put back in the other patrol!

My son was sort of in the same boat (except that we didn't hold him back -- his age fell just a couple of days after the cutoff date for Kindergarten, therefore he has always been one of the oldest in his class).

When he reached his "Webelos I" year in 4th grade, he turned 10 just after the start of the school year. We could tell that he was mentally done with Cub Scouts. I asked my son if he wanted to compress the Webelos years and earn Arrow of Light by the time the second-year group was crossing over (about 7 months out). I told him it would mean extra work, and that he would have to do outings with two dens. He agreed to do it, did it, and then crossed over into his older brother's troop. He was 10yrs and 7mos at the time. He's been fine ever since -- because of how his age sits, he has always been fairly comfortable with others in the school year ahead of him (who, on average, are only 6 months older than him).

Way back when, when my troop would backpack, we had small "cooking groups" of 4 Scouts...one group would use one stove, and backpacking meals were sized for 4 people (I have horrible memories of the Maine Nat'l High Adventure Area, which used a certain brand of pre-packaged food that said "feeds 4 young campers" in fine print -- we went very hungry that week, as a group). When we went to Philmont, we became one group of 12, as I recall. I think we used our SM's Optimus stove.

So, a patrol of 8 having two backpacking stoves? That really isn't unreasonable.

JetBoil now makes something they call their "Group Cooking System", which seems to be sized for at least 4. I'm not so sure I'd be all that hot on using their specific isobutane canister. Some canisters types use some kind of a universal mount, and I'm not sure if theirs has that mount or not. The Snow Peak, and the Pocket Rocket, I think use the same universal mount.

I have an old Svea 123 that still works...I fired it up for a stove demo for the troop and I was surprised that after not having used it for 20 years that it still worked (no leaks!). Sounds silly, but there is a certain amount of comfort in the sound those old white gas stoves make. :-)

Guy

I'm going to amplify what perdidochas has said, only because I think it is very easy to be dismissive of the problem (which is becoming a much more common diagnosis) --

There is a sort of test that one goes through before being diagnosed with sleep apnea -- a series of questions, really. One of those questions is about sleepiness while driving. There are others: afternoon sleepiness, not feeling refreshed upon waking up, irritability, waking up with a headache (from lack of O2!), waking up frequently, nocturia (nighttime urination), snoring, lack of dreaming (because you're not getting into REM), and observed "apnea events" by a sleeping partner. If you say yes to enough of those, you may be offered an overnight sleep study.

I know quite a few adults -- a surprising number, actually -- that have sleep apnea, and sleep with a CPAP machine.

Guy

(this is an insider's note!)

SSScout -- you might have a little trouble fitting a Bach 12C into either a trumpet or a bugle :-). Might want to consider something closer to a Bach 7C, right?

Guy

(who has been using an 11C, but not on a bugle, for many years)

An interesting thought -- years ago, one of my friend's dads (a Scout dad, even) pointed out to me that a natural place for those sticky name tags was above your right pocket, so that when you are introduced to someone, and shake hands with them, the eye is naturally drawn to that side.

But we scouts shake with the left hand! So wouldn't a more natural place for a name tag be on your lefthand side? :-)

Guy

I recently ran a weekend patrol leader training for some of the "mid-level" scouts in our troop (not the oldest ones, who are virtually done, and not the newest ones, who are still learning how to be patrol members). I did exactly what everyone has suggested (find the old course, search online, keep it outdoors, etc) and I think it went fabulously. I got tremendous assistance from Bryan Spellman on this forum, who had remapped an entire JLT (the old program) curriculum and the newer TLT into a weekend event. I learned a few things along the way -- we needed plenty of break time, just for free-form discussion, and running around. I used enough of the TLT program so that I can say "we did that", but also added practical workshops (how does one plan a weekend event? How do you plan an annual calendar? etc.).

The weekend started with a "patrol meeting" on Friday evening. They elected a scribe (for the weekend) and planned their own menu for the weekend (I went shopping very early Saturday morning, before they were up). During the weekend, the scribe kept track of everything we talked about. One thing that happened, just sort of by chance, is that I offered them, as future youth leaders in our troop, a series of challenges for them going forward. For example, we discussed "what is a patrol program?" and then the challenge was "to develop a patrol program for your patrol"...later on, for example, there was a challenge for the PLC to take back leadership of the troop, and to take back ownership of the annual program plan. Of course, it is a challenge -- it isn't going to happen overnight. But at least we have some expectations for them codified in a way.

I'm looking forward to doing this again in the future -- I'm not going to hold it exactly the same way again. I expect we'll have some repeat customers, and I want it to be a value-added weekend to what they already know and what they'll be doing, along with anyone new we pick up along the way.

Guy

Our council is about ready to offer our fourth University of Scouting (same day, Nov 6). After enjoying the last 3 of them immensely, I decided this time around I'd offer to teach a session (I'm covering one on the internet and creating unit websites). Our "Dean of Studies" has been careful about reading evaluation forms from past events, and he's decided to switch up a few of the less popular courses this time around. Just about every course I've attended has been great.

If you're interested, you can see our course catalog here: http://www.yccbsa.org/Training/University/EMUoSCatlog2010.pdf

I would also guess that a google search might turn up other course catalogs if you're fishing for ideas. I get the general impression from our Dean of Studies that the biggest problem is finding instructors. They try and fill that list as early as possible.

Guy

Last year, at our council's University of Scouting, I attended a session on getting parents to volunteer. Not that our unit has particular problems with volunteers, but I've seen the problem in prior units.

When the instructor entered the classroom, he asked someone if they would hand out the stack of papers he was holding, as he got set up. Then he asked someone else if they could circulate a piece of paper, so everyone could write their name and email address on it. Then he asked yet a third person, saying "I always have trouble keeping track of time, so could you keep an eye on the clock and let me know when we hit..." a certain time.

Later on, he asked if we'd caught on to what we were doing...I was kind of dopey and didn't catch on at first, because it seemed so ordinary for what might go on in a class setting. He asked us why what we'd done worked (ask particular people, don't ask them for too much, give them something specific, be effusive with praise, etc). It was a very interesting session...

At a district committee meeting, I mentioned the class to someone else. He said that he'd heard from someone to use the phrase "I have a problem with _____, and I need your help with ____", but not to a group of people. But to ask a specific duty of a specific person.

Guy

First: Reading (my mom was in training to be a librarian, so she set me up with a counselor at the local library).

Favorite: Atomic Energy. One of my troopmates asked me if I wanted to work on it with him, and our SM found us a counselor -- a scientist at a local air force base research lab. He was very patient with us, and taught us a lot over the course of several weeks. We visited his lab, and he had the two of us do separate projects. I think my friend did a reactor model, while I built a geiger counter (which was really cool), using parts that this guy supplied us. I also sent away to the Atomic Energy Commission, and they sent to me a whole pile of interesting pamphlets, relating to various aspects of the atomic age (history, careers, application in medicine, etc).

It didn't really influence my career choice much (I studied electrical engineering), but I still remember bunches of stuff he taught us, and it made a few of my college courses just a little easier.

Guy

Not that I would suggest our troop as a model, but as a data point...

We meet separately from troop meetings, once a month, and sometimes committee members will discuss things in either email or off to the side at a regular troop meeting. Our SM only misses committee meetings when he's out of town. In the last three years, I can't recall having a vote on anything -- we run on a consensus basis, and I don't recall any cases of dissension.

Guy

Thanks, everyone -- I really appreciate the input. The online description of the program sounds great. I figure if I were to sign up, I'm looking at 2 or 3 years from now, so I'm hoping the course is good enough to stick around. :-)

Guy