GKlose

"It would be great if the new programs out there would force Troopmaster Software to offer a web-only option, for example."

I will admit, I am not a Troopmaster expert, but we've been using (I think) a web-only interface for a few months, which can then sync back to our Advancement Chair's PC.

While he tracks advancement and outing participation, I have been mostly concerned with registration, training, etc. About the only feature I've noticed that is missing on the web version is to generate the export file for our SOAR-based troop website. I do, however, note that the web-based Troopmaster has a calendar, email generation and a message forum, so one could theoretically use that in place of some other troop website.

(side note: we're kind of addicted to SOAR's EBlast, calendar and announcements, so I don't see us dropping the troop website for awhile)

Guy

Hello -- I grew up in your area (in Xenia). At one time, there used to be functioning county pools -- is that still the case? If so, there might be summer lessons. I know that you've said the parents don't have the means, but I know (having gone through a couple of extended layoffs myself) is that by asking nicely, sometimes heavy fees are either reduced or eliminated. It would be worth talking to a local YMCA as well -- our local YMCA is very nice about financial assistance.

From a different angle, though, I've just gone through a very similar experience. My younger son has no interest in water at all. About 18 months ago, when he was 11, he told me that he didn't think he would make Second Class because he "can't swim" (as he put it). I know perfectly well he's able to swim, but it turns out his major issue is that he doesn't like jumping into water (especially pond water, at camp).

We found a local woman who teaches swim lessons in a backyard pool, and we arranged private lessons with her. She said that she wouldn't charge, but asked that we make a donation to a charity. She worked with my son, and his swimming skills are stronger than ever -- however, the jumping in part was never addressed. He still doesn't like it, but he did it for a swim test, and for First Class (his BoR was last night). He's already announced, though, he has no interest in the water, and wants nothing to do with another swim test.

Guy

I've read it, it is well-written, and I enjoyed it. Lots of anecdotes, but I get the feeling some of them have been made up to fit the situation being talked about. Honestly, you get as many real-life stories on this forum, and we all know those are actual real-life stories, right? :-)

The book isn't loaded with anything groundbreaking or new, if that's what you're looking for.

Guy

Another place to keep an eye on (I regularly browse rei-outlet.com) is the ScoutDirect sales pages:

http://www.scoutdirect.com/sales-items

http://www.scoutdirect.com/ScoutDirectCurrentSales.htm

About the only complaint I have about the Scout Direct program is that they don't disclose the shipping costs up front.

Guy

My council has an Eagle Week, as do a few of the neighboring councils. Let me explain how Eagle Week has turned our troop into a "bipolar" troop.

When my oldest son joined the troop, four years ago, the typical pattern was a Scout would attend summer camp for two years, and then sign up for Eagle Week for a year or two. At that point, they typically had all their merit badges for Eagle done, they would start getting busy with high school, and they would stop attending meetings and outings. They'd swoop back in to do a project, finish Eagle, and then not be seen from again.

It's taking a grassroots effort, but our guys sort of have to be taught how to have fun at camp again. They've been driven into this advancement-oriented mode, and so they see no purpose behind camp other than the opportunity to earn merit badges. Last year, with the move to a patrol-oriented camp, was the first step. This year, a return to the same patrol-oriented camp, and an added week at a regular program camp (with a dining hall) was offered as a replacement for Eagle Week (the camp offers a few of the Eagle-required MBs, in an "older Scout morning program"). I sold the idea to the troop with the idea that they could attend the equivalent of an Eagle Week but with the troop instead of on a provisional basis.

Guy

I've read several of these AT hiking journals in the past, and have enjoyed every single one of them. In this particular case, I'm very impressed. He finishes a multi-year "section-hike" a couple of years ago, but that's not good enough :-), he's got to "through-hike" it, at 88 years of age.

There's an old 2-volume set of books (maybe published by National Geographic) that chronicles all of the early stories of those who hiked the AT, beginning with the first ones to do it. I borrowed that set from the library once, and read through many of those stories. One of the more impressive stories was Grandma Gatewood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandma_Gatewood), who according to the book, didn't know much about the trail, and decided to check it out. Her first excursion, as I recall, ended with her getting lost after a couple of weeks. She tried again the next summer, succeeding with hiking the entire trail, frequently foraging for food along the way. For many years, she was the oldest credited through-hiker. I'm not sure who is considered the oldest now, but it would be difficult to imagine anyone over 88 having attempted it. :-)

Guy

The way I see it, it's the CC's show. But our troop isn't exclusive. We're meeting monthly, on a separate night from troop meetings, and all parents are invited. I saw that when I joined that nothing really happened without the SM's blessing, but otherwise we pretty much run on a consensus basis.

Last fall, we had some contention. It related to a change in troop policy where Scouts' positions of responsibility would not be credited unless actual effort was put forth for the entire duration. Our advancement chair brought this up, as a change to how Boards of Review would be conducted. One Scout was, unfortunately, to be the first "victim" of a delayed BoR. The dad (not a committee member) was not pleased, and started shouting at the meeting, despite pleas for him to keep his voice down. Afterward, the CC admitted to me that he was quite uncomfortable during the exchange. This is the only time that our consensus was anything but, and we had disagreement.

But just to fill in the rest of that story -- a few factors had got us to that point. One is that Scouts, at their prior Boards of Review, had been told that they'd had their last "freebies". It was only a delay (until PoRs had been satisfactorily filled). Turns out the ultimate problem, with dad pushing the Scout, was that we were coming up on our first Court of Honor in 5 months or so, without another one scheduled. They'd wanted him to move up in rank prior to the CoH. The situation was diffused with a new BoR policy, where rank badges were handed out immediately after completed BoRs (with recognition, and cards, given at the next CoH). Problem solved. The Scout did fulfill his PoR, had his BoR, received his Life rank badge right away, and was honored at our most recent CoH. But we really could have done without the shouting.

Guy

By the way, our troop did this twice back in the dark ages when I was a Scout. Those are among my favorite memories with the troop, in addition to the high adventure trips we did.

We had a pretty large troop at the time, and there were dads and older Scouts that functioned as MB counselors. I didn't spend much time at the waterfront, so I don't recall how we handled the lifeguard concept. I think we had a couple of dads on duty.

We had one dad, whose real life job was that of a purchasing agent, who loved being our "commissary officer". He'd drive into town every morning, and get food for lunch through the next day's breakfast, along with ice for our coolers (I recall having a styrofoam cooler, which we buried halfway, for more insulation). I learned from one of his sons, just a few years ago, that our commissary officer would go to multiple stores in town and extract whatever deals, discounts and freebies he could from every store, saying "this is for the Boy Scouts!"

Kudu is always bringing up 300 feet -- I can't think of a single time where one patrol was within even a quarter mile of another. We were definitely on our own, and the only time we saw adults was either during our program time, or during meal times, as invited guests. And yes, natural leaders took over. I don't ever recall a single vote for a patrol leader, and certainly nobody was handed a "position of responsibility" because they needed it for rank advancement.

I think this is a great idea, and I'm envious!

From our own experience at a patrol-oriented camp, once you extract time for meal prep, "program" is only running from about 8:30am until 3:30pm, with an hour of "free time" (open swim, for example) from 3:30pm to 4:30pm. Evening activities are scheduled after dinner. Last year, our guys didn't even have the energy to start up a fire after the evening program...ever hear of that with a group of Scouts? :-)

With T-2-1 Scout skills, you've got a nice varied program. You can lash "useful camp gadgets", set up a 1-mile orienteering course, etc. If you have access to a swimming area, you can do water safety. First aid requirements, cooking, plants and animals, etc.

If you can find the old Brownsea 22 syllabus, there is a set program for six days of a summer camp in it, patterned after BP's original Scout camp. Would take a lot of prep, but it would be interesting.

I think you'll have great fun with this.

Guy

Let me add a story to the mix --

I know of a troop that was pretty much an adult-led, troop method, advancement-oriented troop, with do-nothing positions of responsibility and a World's Oldest SPL of an SM. When the SM was asked about the patrol method, he'd answer "we're working on that." But meanwhile, the troop was purchasing a giant carport ("we can fit the entire troop under it"), a large 3-burner propane stove and a trailer to fit it all in. Adult leaders felt they had to boss around "youth leaders" and other Scouts, because otherwise "we'll never get anything done." The situation was bleak.

A new parent came along, asked a few questions, went to committee meetings, and otherwise kept his eyes open and his mouth shut (except when asked). First thing that was noticed that youth leaders didn't act as patrol leaders because 1) they'd never seen a PL in action, and 2) nobody taught them how. The SM was not doing youth training at all.

The situation is better now, but it started with advocating at the committee level. "Do you want to have a youth-led troop, or not?" and gentle reminders. A couple of youth were sent to Brownsea 22 (the old "All Out For Scouting" syllabus) training, and training was offered at the troop level to all prospective PLs. During the training, they were given a set of challenges, such as "take back ownership of the annual calendar", "take back operation of the troop via the PLC" and "run your patrol according to the National Honor Patrol criteria" and others.

The World's Oldest SPL still needs reminders. Although he admitted to other committee members "I didn't think you could do it" (well, we did it by actually turning over responsibility and mentoring -- funny how that actually works). But at the same time, at the last committee meeting, he was looking for agreement to buy two giant dutch ovens ("hell, we can feed the whole troop with those things"). I fear he still doesn't get it.

The bottom line is that it isn't easy -- it takes constant reminders about stepping out of the way. We have a new crop of adults joining the troop this spring, and they need to be taught too. There are some that still don't get that it isn't supposed to be father-son camping. Sometimes it takes a "this is a 100-year old youth leadership development program, and the way it is supposed to work is that adults are supposed to step back and let them lead -- they make mistakes, and it isn't always pretty, but they're learning."

Our Scouts, prior to my time in the troop, attended a camp that had a tradition at evening flags. The camp staff would call roll, and each SPL would answer that his troop was present. Over the years, that had morphed into SPLs and troops doing wacky stunts, to be the first called into the dining hall.

That camp closed, and most of the troops that attended that camp moved on to the other council camp, where such a tradition of silliness didn't exist. Here's where I started attending...same thing, at evening roll call, camp staff calls out campsite by campsite. So our guys start into the silliness. So much so that the staff can be seen trying to choke back the laughs. It was something different each day, but the ones that I recall are the troop starting to sing The Lion Sleeps Tonight, while bobbing up and down singing "wim-oh-weh". They also once brought branches to hide behind, as they snuck up towards the dining hall door (looked silly, and was very funny). A few other troops started to get into it too.

We've since moved on to a new camp, and last year I don't recall anything out of the ordinary. We'll see what happens this year.

I'm a former district membership chair, and I did roundtable presentations several times (seasonally -- on spring recruiting, fall recruiting and Webelos-To-Scout transition). I developed these talks based on what I'd like to see from roundtable talks -- my "blah blah blah" was about 5 minutes, and questions would take another 5 minutes or so. Short and sweet, over and done.

Contrast that with the last time I sat through "camp promotion". I'm sure everyone would agree that close to 100% of the audience has already decided what to do for camp by the time camp promotion hits roundtables. I can see the need for a sales pitch, but I don't see the need for 1 hr+. The last time, a guy got and basically did the camp promotion part -- maybe 20 minutes. Then another guy got up to present an idiotic video. But the video went on way too long. Then after that, I guess the council camping chair decided that the previous two guys didn't cover things the way he wanted in the previous 40 minutes, so he droned on and on about really obvious and otherwise redundant stuff.

So that leads to my advice -- please don't ever hold polite roundtable audiences hostage. Short and sweet, make your point and keep the program moving. Get to the Q&A part as quickly as you can, because everyone has their own individual concern.

While we have fairly good attendance at roundtable, I do notice that it is the same people over and over. Constant new material is what keeps them interested. So when I'd repeat topics, from year to year, I'd change the angle or something like that. Maybe have some new ideas.

Nothing wrong with asking district committee people to make presentations (short!)...you've got membership, training, activities, camp promotion, finance (FoS) and why it's important, commissioners (why they're important). Have someone from the executive board stop by and talk about strategic plans, etc. Who is the council commissioner, and what does he do? Has everyone met the other "key" volunteers?

I know our district commissioner and roundtable commissioner pretty much map out their plans for the year -- I was just talking with our district chair last night about how he'd like to see Webelos-To-Scout transition presentations moved up in the year, perhaps to November.

Guy

We're a couple of years removed from a Cub Scout pack, but I think I can accurately describe their annual planning process as this: "well, we did X last year, and the Cubs seemed to enjoy it, so let's just do X again".

The only problem is that when we joined the pack, it was about 90 Cubs, and three years later when our youngest moved on to a troop, the pack was pretty much thinking about folding. Maybe 20 Cubs still left in the pack. They didn't fold, and now two years later, they're hanging on with 25 to 40 Cubs.

Meanwhile, our "feeder pack" is having a leadership crisis of their own. Nobody wants to lead it (because it turned into yet another "one-man show" with the Cubmaster, and his son moved up to a troop) and they've been stuck in a program rut for a few years too.

So my recommendation is this: keep varying the program. "Good enough" usually isn't. Keep coming up with fantastic and fun new ideas -- think outside of the box.

Guy

Just a couple of random thoughts --

Over the past year, one of my most difficult tasks has been to convince Mr. SM that he needs to stop barking out orders to everyone, virtually taking over every meeting and outing. It's tough work :-), and he still needs constant reminders. We made most progress when we had a Scout step forward that really wanted to be SPL, he was elected and trained. Then we convinced Mr. SM to relinquish control.

Lately, Mr. SM hasn't been to every meeting (or outing). He finds it somewhat liberating. He can sometimes come into a meeting, and be at the back of the room, with almost every other adult, and just relax a little. More often than not, we're talking "committee business" back there, and it is sometimes nice to get his input, rather than competing for his attention when he's barking out orders.

Another thought -- although the Trainer's EDGE training has taken a beating on this forum (and I would agree that it is deeply flawed), the curriculum has some very interesting points about putting together good PowerPoint presentations (content and visual presentation). It only would take a few minutes to review that, and then I think you might get some ideas for this presentation.

Guy

Our WB course had someone go home after The Game of Life too, but we don't know exactly why. The Course Director, the next morning, confirmed that someone left and then weasel-worded around it. Since it was almost two years ago, I don't really remember what he said.

Eagle92 -- I had a similar experience with BA22, circa 1976. I was in a patrol with a bunch of pains (I'm sure they thought the same about me, but I definitely was not as immature as them). My own SM was the course director, and it was the first time it had run in our council. Our troop had always been run in that Brownsea sort of style, so I should have cruised in the course.

Afterward, I told my SM about my experience. He told me that I'd been placed in that particular patrol because of the maturity level of the others. He'd felt I would be a good influence on the rest. Didn't work out that way, though, and I felt like it was a really lousy week, and told him so. I suppose, though, that was part of *my* learning experience.

Guy

Most recommendations for Philmont I've seen are for sleeping bags rated for 30F. With that kind of rating, there are a slew of bags to choose from, even in the 2lb to 3lb range. Campmor, I think, has a down bag that runs about $100. Eureka has a synthetic that runs about $50. But don't forget to check into the ScoutDirect discount with Alps Mountaineering. Good prices, good quality. Closer to the 3lb weight, though.

I am amused by my council's Eagle guidelines, which says (a direct quote): "The application requires six references to be listed, with only the employer reference allowed to be omitted if the candidate has no employer."

I pointed out to someone on the district advancement committee that there might be six lines listed, but the wording clearly does not require that all six lines be filled in. When I asked our committee chair (his son recently went through an Eagle Board of Review) he said they didn't fill out all six lines (so, by extension, the committee isn't really requiring six references).

Other council guidelines place the burden of getting reference letters directly on the unit Advancement Chair, which I don't think is unreasonable. A single unit presumably has fewer Eagle candidates a year to deal with than an entire district advancement committee.

Guy

rhol, I had similar concerns to yours, prior to signing up for WB21C. Things worked out just fine...I went into the course with a list of things that I wanted to do regardless of my ticket, and they just so happened to be formed into a ticket, along with quite a few other things I hadn't dreamed up, as I went through the process.

Many of the ideas you have are a good start. I've heard similar stories about other tickets. For example, one patrol-mate signed up for Wilderness First Aid (he's an ASM). Our troop guide had started up a Venturing crew for his own ticket (and now he's a 'go to guy' for Venturers in our council). A guy in another patrol organized a high adventure trip for his troop. Part of the ticket entry was to present a segment on planning a high adventure trip at the local University of Scouting. I went to that session, and it was interesting. They did a multi-day canoe trip in the Delaware Water Gap.

As others have said, your ticket is personal to your vision. Do you see Venturing in your future? Or would you be satisfied with mentoring an active venture patrol within your troop? That kind of thing.

On my own ticket, broadly speaking, I had items to strengthen our troop and to strengthen myself. Not only for the present (supporting actual youth leadership within the troop), but for my anticipated next step (I'm probably going to be the next CC of the troop), and a role I think I would like to eventually move in to (district training). One small part of one item was to earn the training award (as an ASM).

I finished my ticket back in March, taking the full 18 months for what I think ended up being a very ambitious ticket. My troop guide/counselor definitely pushed me to stretch a little, and I did. I think I'm better off for it, and I think there are tangible results. My patrol opted to be beaded together, which is going to happen early next month.

Guy

We had them, too, when I was a Scout in the 70s. Pretty simple to manage, I think. Sunday morning, after our Scout's Own service, the SM would hand out a bead to everyone there. He had some sort of color code going on, which was kind of fun (for me as an 11-yr-old). After awhile, he stopped the practice, but I don't know why.

One story I remember about them -- we did our own summer camp a couple of times, and he had bead colors based on our patrol campsite inspections. Honor patrol, in a way. Then one day, he had a patrol that far exceeded his expectations, and he gave out an unused bead color to them. So it became our patrol's mission to earn the same bead for the next day.

Honestly, I don't see a bead incentive thing working with my present troop. We can't even get guys to sew on rank badges after they're earned.

Guy

Anecdote time -- years ago, when my sons were both Cubs, we volunteered for a "town-wide cleanup day" that was held on Earth Day, which was on a Saturday that year. We basically picked up trash on town roads and properties. The woman who organized the day was very nice -- most people didn't have a place already picked out, and she would say "I would choose something close to home, something that you see every day -- then you'll appreciate the results". My wife, kids and I had an interesting time doing it, even though you can't expect much out of a 7 year old and a 9 year old.

All the while, I was thinking "next year, I'll get the pack involved...and if I talk to every Scout unit in town, I can probably get at least a hundred extra people out." BSA alone, that was at least 3 packs and 4 troops, the ones I knew about. I wasn't sure how many Girl Scout groups were out.

So the next year, I started "recruiting" a couple of months in advance. First roadblock was talking to the local DE, the first time I'd talked to him. It was simple, I wanted to talk to a unit commissioner for our town, who then might be able to contact every unit with the project idea. No deal -- our town didn't have a unit commissioner. I got names for every unit leader, though.

Girl Scouts were tough. I saw on the council website that they had service project ideas listed for Earth Day, the most challenging of which was to plant flowers outside the council office building. When I tried contacting someone there, they flat out refused to give me any contact names, telling me it was a privacy issue. They said they would tell units about the Earth Day service project, but nobody ever showed up on the work day.

It was just as bad in my own unit. A grand total of two other families besides me and one of my other sons (out of about 40 families in the pack). That's when I realized that most families in the pack were after the trinkets and not really interested in anything that didn't relate to a trinket. No pack outings, no day camp, no service projects, or parades. Nothing.

Just a quick note -- out of the three camps that I've mentioned, all three of them claim to only do instruction, not actually do testing and sign-offs. They specifically mention that it is up to the troop to make sure the skill has been learned before signing it off. One camp does provide a sheet that checks off which skills were covered during the week (and they have accurate enough records to know if a Scout has skipped a session or not) but they don't sign handbooks!

Guy

Let me repeat what Scoutnut has said -- Alps Mountaineering has a Scout discount program called ScoutDirect. 45% off the list price, once you sign up with them. It is a great program.

I have occasionally seen Alps Mountaineering closeouts on rei-outlet.com for a hair less than ScoutDirect, but more often than not, you can't beat the ScoutDirect pricing.

In the past few years, I've been to two different camps, and will be at a third one this year. Each one of them had a first year program, and all three seem to be different. However, we've not had Scouts enrolled in any one of them, so I can't give you a firsthand review of the results.

But -- there are a few things that spring to mind based on what you've written. One is that the program we are seeing this year has an all morning program, and first year Scouts are taken to one merit badge "class period" for a merit badge of their choosing. The camp suggests certain merit badges appropriate for first year campers. You can see this program (online) for yourself if you look up Daniel Webster Council's Hidden Valley Scout Camp. The program is described in their leader's guide.

One of the other camps we attended -- first thing after breakfast is an instructional swim period. Scouts who didn't swim, didn't swim well, or perhaps didn't get through the swimmer's test were encouraged to attend. The "first year" program started after the instructional swim period was over. Also -- I think it was scheduled for Friday morning -- the first year Scouts were taken to the waterfront for instruction on the water safety and rescue portions of rank requirements. That same afternoon, a first year camper 5-mile hike was scheduled, after map and compass instruction.

Another camp we attended is doing something different with their first year program this year. At that camp (Camp Bell, a patrol-oriented camp, also part of Daniel Webster Council) does program by patrol. So if you have a patrol of first-year Scouts, they would (in past years) do rank advancement stuff on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. On Tuesday and Thursday, they would schedule some other patrol activity (perhaps one of the other fun activities the camp provides -- last year, a young patrol I saw scheduled horseback riding on one day, and a raft-building activity and an outpost camping experience on the other day).

This year, that camp is doing it differently. On Monday, they keep first year Scouts the entire day and then they do some sort of a remote outpost that night (where I suppose they are going through camp setup, cooking, cleaning, etc. scenarios) and I think it lasts into the next day. Then Wednesday through Friday those patrols can schedule other patrol activities. By the way -- the camp does outposts with one staff member and at least one troop adult. They seem to encourage every patrol in camp to sign up for at least one outpost.

With an hour a day, I'm not sure that you can cover a whole lot during the week. Honestly, I'd concentrate on something that is best to handle in the summer camp setting (for example, the waterfront stuff) for the benefit of troops.

Guy

I own two Tetragon 5s and the troop owns a few Tetragon 7s. I think they are fine "economy" tents with some very nice features (such as built-in gear lofts, and great ventilation). They are very easy to set up.

But -- I'm not happy that we've got a problem with the fiberglass poles. They are splitting (on my tents, two poles split -- on the troop tents, one pole recently split). I've seen that a local outdoors store sells replacement poles, and Eureka replaced on of my own for free (I haven't called them about the second one yet), but I'm wondering if there is a design problem with their poles. Or perhaps we've used them in weather that is too cold (on my tents, maybe 35F weather -- on the troop tent, it may have been colder -- I'm not sure on which outings it was used).

The Tetragons, in my mind, aren't lightweight enough for backpacking (but we've used them on canoe trips). But, as I said above, I do think they are fine "economy" tents.

I think my next tent purchases (for either me, or my Scout sons) might be lightweight backpacking tents. But I'll probably try and find ones that will hold up well (however it is that I'm going to do that!).

Guy

I would suggest training -- all of the troop committee member training is online at myscouting.org (Youth Protection, This is Scouting, Fast Start: Boy Scout, and Troop Committee Challenge), and I think overall it would be less than 2 hours of commitment to go through all of them. From there, the Troop Committee Guidebook has further explanations of what is expected out of troop committee roles. Through Google, you can probably easily find a PDF of the Troop Committee Guidebook.