fred johnson

DigitalScout ... and your point is? BSA also doesn't want overweight leaders and it probably stigmatizes their kids too

 

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I should mention I think BSA should not reject leaders based on orientation. Let charter organizations choose leaders that reflect their beliefs and values. Get BSA out of this political war. More importantly get kids out of this political war and TO HECK with the people who want to fight this societal battle on a kids playground.

Another related issue.... parents receive their 1st joining invite in K or 1st grade. So then they really don't even think about it in 2nd grade or after.

Ya know ... The above quote ... compete with soccer and baseball. I fully 100% disagree with that. What we have now are many programs competing for the same kids starting in kindergarten and 1st grade. Then, families discover it's too much. So they need to drop something. Scouts is often the first to be dropped because it looks the least structured.

 

I say, let them try baseball and soccer in K & 1st grade. Let those be the small kid activities with heavy parent involvement. Stop associating scouts with the smallest kids. Stop having such a young program that it becomes parent required.

 

Let Cub Scouts start in 2nd grade (or 3rd for all I care ... I think that's when my kids were ready.)

Jay K ... It's not about being too good for Wood Badge. And I did take it because it was part of the curriculm. Essentially to complete the checklist and to follow the program. I also agree that it's about the betterment of scouting.

 

BUT ... My Wood Badge was way way too much class room. Just like my IOLS which was also way way too much class room.

 

Where Wood Badge was very useful to me was ... In learning how a troop functions. Marching. Singing songs. Gathering in the morning. Assigning jobs. Learning how to stack the pans in the cook kit. Somewhat how to run a PLC. Seeing how the cooks cooked. DOING THINGS. THAT'S HOW SCOUT LEARN AND THAT'S HOW ADULT LEADERS LEARN TOO.

 

The classroom content was way too much and forgotten before the weekend was thru. Especially as I had already studied those concepts as part of being a professional. Only one of my tickets I can remember now even though they were all work and that's because I'm still doing that extra job.

 

I could have really really used a course that was more outdoor oriented to develop that outdoorsman. Let's cut wood with an axe. Let's tip a canoe. Let's get this injured scout cared for and to the hospital.

 

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The biggest issue I have with Wood Badge is the same issue many have with Eagle Scout. Over promotion and wasting people's time who already know about it. Way too often Wood Badge promotion was about the betterment of Wood Badge. Over hype. Similar to Eagle Scout. We over-hype Eagle Scout to the detriment of Eagle Scout.

Basementdweller ... I can't speak directly to this Jamboree, but every jamoboree I've read about and the one my son went on had it clearly documented from the start that scouts will have extra uniforming expenses. My son had to bring four full uniforms. We received our official tshirts. You either had to be in the uniform or the official tshirts. It was a big expense, but it was KNOWN before hand and it was part of the agreement. I bet it was in the agreement you and your scout made when he signed up for the Jamboree. Don't make life difficult for your son's Jamboree SM. He's applying the rules and I find it hard to believe that you didn't know this was coming.

 

If your son doesn't have the full uniform ... he will stick out like a sore thumb.

 

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jr56 ... PLUS ... they all need to be in the same thing at the same time. Everyone in their orange Jamboree troop #### t-shirt now. Now jamobree scout shirt. Now .... The only thing that was not official was my son's swim suit.

 

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Jamborees are expensive. They are the Cadillac of scouting trips. You really can't complain about cost during them. The Jamboree documents warn you ahead of time.

 

Personally, I won't send my sons to them again because of cost and because of the random draw of scout leaders.

I can't get this page to scroll and lock-on, so am starting a new reply. There is a big diff between cash and credits: actual cash comes out of the Scout's wallet, while credits are a paper entry in the overall troop account -- the Scout never actually sees this as money, but just sees a bookkeeping entry. An example: 3 weeks of summer camp is going to cost $300. The Scout is told it is going to cost 300 credits.He has 200 credits in his ISA, so has to come up with $100 in cash.

 

King Dong: bake sales are exempt because everyone is supposed to understand the baked goods are baked in homes by amateurs, and you take your chances

 

So, if we stop valuing ISA in dollars, and switch to credits, even though there is a one to one correspondence, and everyone understands the ISA has to be spent within the troop (camping fees, uniforms, Scout Shop training kits, patches & badges, etc) many of the problems should be resolved

BOOMERSCOUT... credit versus money ... you're playing a word game that is very Clinton'esque. I doubt the IRS would play along. Just because you really really really want it that way, does not mean it's true. Unless you completely remove money from the equation, credits are equivalent to money. As long as little Johnny can pay cash for camp, then the credits are the same as cash.

 

Also you never know if Little Johnny has another side job and needs to file a tax return. Plus, Little Johnny might be saving up for a high adventure.

 

Please note also ... Leader shirts are deductible. Leader camping costs are deductible. You can NOT deduct the price of the scout's shirt or the price of scout's camp. This is all related.

An alternative title: Does Cub Scouts start too early?

At 5.5 years long in our council (Lions, Tigers, Wolves, Bears, Webelos), youth usually spend way more time in Cub Scouts than Boy Scouts. Plus, Cub Scouting is being viewed as a Kindergarten maturity level. Pack activities often need to be lowered to the least challenging level, now kindergarten.

 

IMHO, let soccer be the Kindergarten and 1st grade activities. Move Cub Scouts to 2nd grade and get it viewed again as a more mature and more challenging activity.

dedkad ... You provided a great definition. I think that's what I meant. "Someone who is "prissy" would prefer to stay indoors instead of getting outside and getting their hands dirty with hard work and active play."

 

I'd apply that to scouting where merit badge counselors want filled out workbooks instead of just getting down to doing it. Face-to-face. Getting your hands dirty. Youth camp planning that is excessively paperwork based instead of face-to-face working with people.

Easy ... I'd get rid of the advancement when the scout ages out. Dealing with years and years of that now.

 

Careful ... Finances, we go with seven years, but we are mostly electronic.

 

Realy difficult ... The rest is just sentimental. Organizational memory. How much do you keep? Personally, I like to keep some rosters with contacts. Some history of what the troop did and where we went. But beyond that, we THROW IT AWAY. Otherwise, it just becomes a paperwork headache for the next guy to throw away.

 

Not unethical Scouting is recognized as an educational activity; camping is part and parcel of the education. If ISA are used for camp fees, field trips & uniforms, then everything OK. If one Scout uses his ISA to buy a Big Agnes, then not OK as that is individual, personal gain. and must be declared as income. However, Scout probably comes under the minimum earnings level to file. Didn't we discuss this last year?

Boomerscout ...

 

"credits instead of in money" ... but then if someone doesn't have the credits, can they pay cash instead? It ends up being the same thing. A credit has a specific monetary value.

 

Great point on charity versus non-profit. Way about the level of most troops to manage though.

 

I think key is the "AS LONG AS ALL THE "EYES" ARE CROSSED AND ALL THE TEES ARE DOTTED" is the real statement. Troops / units don't do that. Unit leadership is continually taking administrative shortcuts through ignorance or volunteer time constraints. We all know that. The "good enough" approach creates the legal and ethical dilemmas.

Yes. Government marriage has changed. Churches made the mistake of getting stuck in advocating their beliefs thru a legal system. That's the same thing we ridicule many islamic countries for doing. That's the churches big mistake. But, it still doesn't make it right and that's what I teach my kids.

 

One of the big theological tenets of the Catholic church that I do believe fully is the principle of Free Will. Not every choice is easy. Not every choice is conscious. We as people are driven by obsessions and compulsions. But that's the human condition and we each have our battles to fight.

 

It's as simple as I have many friends of alternative life styles. I refuse to believe that they are the product of some generic defect that caused their orientation any more than generics caused people to be attracted to thin / fat bodies, small / large breasts, tan / pale skin, small feet, long necks, pierced lips or hairy arm pits.

Yeah. It was discussed last year. It will keep coming up as the topic is riddled with contradctions.

 

We want scout accounts and those same accounts and our troops are subject to IRS rules.

 

We want scouts to earn money and pay their own way but we don't want to call it EARNINGS.

 

We want fundraising results to benefit those who did the fundraising but still keep our nonprofit status and avoid paying sales tax or deal with W2 or 1099 statements.

 

We want scouts to pay their own way, but then we want to control how and what they can use the money for. If they mow lawns, they can use the money for anything they want. If they sell popcorn and earn money, then it's only for scoutign.

 

We want to teach character and morals but to do scout accounts we have to bend rules and justify ourselves until the line is broken.

 

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boomerscout ... you yourself wrote your justification because it's too small to hit minimum earnings levels. But that's only true if the scout doesn't have another job working. i.e. 15, 16, 17 year old scouts.

 

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Ethical.... It's ethical in the exact same that going four miles over the speed limit is ethical. Who's hurt? It helps me achieve my goals a little bit easier. Everyone does it.

 

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I don't have a problem with it either way. Just be careful legally and let's think about the lesson we are teaching our scouts.

How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf

King Ding Dong ... "someone" = US government statues clarified, documented and enforced by the IRS. IRS doesn't care to handle a blanket or small amounts. So if your ethics are affected by if you can fly by under the radar, go for it. Heck, scouts privately benefiting by raising funds for a non-profit isn't really that bad is it. Our scouts do it too. .... But it doesn't make it ethically right or fair. It's just what we need to do to make the unit finances work right.

Yeah, partials are a different story. The only final item is when the counselor signs the WHOLE card. Individual requirements are never approved. The back of the card with initials is just a helpful reminder of where the scout is on the progress toward completing. The counselor can revisit anything until it's signed off.

 

As for JBlake47's comment, I very much different. MBs are done when signed off. You can't override an authorized MB counselor. MBs are a council program and not a troop program.

 

If you think it's important the scout has the skill, work with the scout. Provide him opportunities to use the skill. Don't penalize him for another registered leaders shortcomings.

NJCubScouter - Point well made. I mainly used labels for the John Wayne and Peter Fonda as people can picture the Cowboy and the Easy Rider. I just wish I could find more of them in scouting. That's all. It's one reason my sons are in scouting. To heck with all the MBA driven paperwork. My sons get that enough in school. I want them to get dirt, scratches and a little bit of muscle built up. Oh, and to make friends along the way.

 

Eagledad - You're dead on. I used to disappear for most of the day starting when I was 10 or 11 years old. Bike across town to the YMCA. Bike five miles to my friend's house. I'd generally let me mom know, but it was more for meal planning than for permission. And to be courteous.

ThomasJefferson ... You've got too much agenda. Don't hijack this into some atheist rank. Scouting's always had a strong faith element, right from the start. Plus every man's man that I've know has had a strong faith. They might not shove it down your throat, but it's there.

 

You don't need to deny God to be a man's man. And you don't need to hijack this thread with some atheist junk.

I'm not referring to any "orientation". That's not significant to this discussion

Definitions.

Merriam-Webster - overly prim and precise

Google - Fussily and excessively respectable; (of clothes) Overadorned with details such as ruffles and bows.

The Free Dictionary - Excessively or affectedly prim and proper; fussy and prim, esp in a prudish way; affectedly correct

I ask because I think back to my sons, especially the oldest. I can predict which adult scouters he would look up to and which would drive him away.

John Wayne Scouters ... Locally, I know three scouters that are the bigger than life type of person. Eagle scouts. But, they don't mince words and sometimes you almost need to teach your son that you can't always talk like they do in normal society. Or at least until you've achieved what they have achieved. . My son worked for one and the man would warn his staff to not mess up or ... some colorful statement that is probably against the laws of physics or basic anatomy. My son met another scouter while out-of-scouting and the guy had a big wide brim stetson and a stoogie in his mouth. More chewing it than smoking. Not a scouting event, so fine. The last is a scouter that my son shared military discussions with. I'll call these guys the John Wayne scouters.

Peter Fonda scouters ... My son also had an absolutely great scoutmaster who was very very laid back. Let the scouts explore as long as they stayed in certain boundaries and got the job done. He taught them skills and tried to let the scouts be boys. I remembered one afternoon at summer camp, the scoutmaster let them borrow the five gallon rope bucket (as long as they agreed to put the ropes back in). The scouts put some water in it and collected 20+ snakes. Sort of cool in a creepy way. Another time the scouts wanted to wrestle as several were on wrestling teams. He watched over that one fairly tight so no one got hurt, but he let them do it. I'll call this type of scout the Peter Fonda Easy Rider scouter.

But I could almost predict to the instant the scouters that would turn my son off.

Felix Unger scouters ... Usually it was the ones that commented about his uniform before getting to know him. Or pointed out the rank advancements he could earn or similar. Or found one of many nit picky ways to communicate. Or would pull rules out of their hats that did not really exist.

Donald Trump scouters ... Another type of socuter would be the ones focused on process and procedure. The ones that would establish the ISO 9001, form, procedure driven scouting.

Anyway, my son has made some interesting life choices recently that make me very proud. And I've been reflecting on what type of scouting we have today.

Perhaps it is also because I've been reflecting on our local elementary schools. Seems like the majority (95% plus) of the students with issues or in reading recovery or with IEPs are boys. It really seems like the real issue with these boys at elementary is that they are not girls.

Anyway, just been thinking about what happened to that old school man's man. He's getting rarer and rarer all the time.

Personally, I wish that's something scouting offered more often.

Just thinking.

I took Woodbadge years ago mainly to get over the hump of people perceiving that I was new to scouting. i.e. Peer Pressure. I must admit I often hide out in the back of the room at round table so that when the Wood Badge promos begin, I can sneak out of the room and network with the others that are smart enough to hide near the back of the room.

 

Benefits

- Networking

- elimination of peer pressure.

 

Negative

- Tickets - I was already doing too much in scouting. Now you want to ask me to do more? Fine, but you better refer me to a divorce attorney. I honestly saw no benefit to the tickets. From the tickets I've seen, they are shallow or short lived or unrealistic that it will really make a difference in scouting. Write a ???.. Do a ###. The only tickets that seem to last long are the "Volunteer to run the ### at the district level". Most others just fade away and fairly quickly at that.

Hold a troop fundraiser and reduce the camping cost for all scouts in your troop ... equally. Raise enough to send all your troop scouts to summer camp.

 

Today's scouting is not cheap. I'd imagine 60 years ago you could easily find a field, bring wool blankets and camp. VERY CHEAP. Times have changed.

The 20% is probably to keep under the IRS "INSUBSTANTIAL" criteria. Though 20% seems substantial.

 

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Transferring money to another troop. Surprised to see that. Ya know ... Our troop recently decided to NOT send money with the scout if he transfers. What if the scout with $1200 transfers to another troop and quits in three months? Will the other troop send the money back to us?

 

We might pay for the camping in the other troop on a camp out by camp out basis. We've yet to decide that. The issue is the scout raised the money with the troop's support. Seems like it should go to supporting his activity in our troop or go to help the other scouts in our troop. But then whose money is it? If the scout quits scouting, we don't write them a check out. Should we?

 

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The other thing I just realized ... never clicked before ... DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE SCOUT SAYS. Checks are written to the troop ... i.e. the non-profit. That is explicit evidence of money going to the non-profit. Seems that would trump anything the scout said he'd said. It makes all sales a troop fundraiser. Hmmm.... Need to think about it.

 

Even if we do it well and mange the nuances, scouts are taking advantage of the implied good will of the non-profit for their own benefit. Hmmmmm.... Ethics are interesting thing.

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I suggest telling the scout to mow yards or shovel drive ways to pay for scouting.

It is a game of NUANCES to give sales profits to scouts and be a non-profit.

 

It's moral if the boy says "buy my popcorn to send me to camp".

 

It's not moral if the boy says "buy my popcorn to support my troop" or if he refers to it as a "TROOP" fundraiser. If you use what is legal as your moral compass and have read IRS case history, you can't allocate non-profit funds to specific people because of how much they raised for the non-profit.

 

Personally, our troop gives 90% of the profit from each scout goes to that scout. 10% to the troop as sort of a charge to support the scout sales. I don't know if we are right or wrong. We don't call it a troop fundraiser. We ask the scouts to say buy my popcorn to send me to camp. We have one scout that has $1200 in his scout account. IT SCARES ME both in responsibility if we don't budget right and spend HIS money or if we should be issuing him a 1099 or risking our non-profit status.

 

Koolaidman - "Participation (... in fundraising ...) can be a factor when allocating funds."

- Strictly per IRS, NO.

- For our small groups, we're probably under the radar.

- Sometimes people do things because it's been done that way for years. And that's the only reason why you CAN do it.

 

sailingpj - "I have never met anyone who thought it was unethical."

- Glad to meet you.

- We still do it, but there are ethical issues.

 

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The ethics is all about claiming NON-PROFIT.

 

- There is no ethical problem with earning money. There is an ethical problem with earning money and not calling it income. (i.e. skirting taxes)

 

- There is no ethical problem raising money to send yourself to camp. There is a big ethical problem raising money for a non-profit and using a significant part of that money to send an individual to camp because he earned the money. It's also an IRS issue. But your groups are probably okay because the IRS doesn't audit that small.

 

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RANDOM THOUGHTS ...

 

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You are on weak ground when it's ethical because it's such a small amount. Is a small lie not wrong but a big lie is wrong?

 

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Plus BSA is about CHARACTER. Honest Abe Lincoln walked miles to return a penny. Even then it was a small amount. That's character. He did the right thing.

 

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QUESTION - Do you think it is ethical for a food shelf to give donated food to a family free-of-charge if they stay to work the food shelf and charge other families or charge a membership ?

 

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QUESTION - Is it ethical to run a fundraiser for a non-profit in the name of the nonprofit and keep 75% of the money and only give the non-profit 25% ?

 

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IMHO, waiving dues for participation is the same as requiring someone to pay to play. The volunteers are personally benefiting from the fundraiser. That fundraiser is NOT a non-profit event then. I'm okay with it because it helps the kids, but it is personal benefit. i.e. INCOME.

 

IMHO, requiring participation is the same as pay to play also.

 

My opinion is based on my IRS readings. I could be wrong. But it's what I understand right now.

 

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***** REAL EXAMPLE ***** A local family, not in our troop but I know them personally, never had to pay anything for scouts because their family sold so much. Over ten years, that scout's family (multiple youth) had to have earned more than $10,000 for the family. Their family averaged $5000 in popcorn and wreath sales each year. Work connections and hoofing it around the neighborhoods.

 

That's a business. And I think they were teaching their kids how to have initiative to personally profit. They paid for two jamborees. 4 high adventures. Boy Scout summer camp each year for 6 years each. And much more.

 

I've been in scouts for 13 years now with my FOUR sons. We've easily spent $10,000 on activities and events. Probably more. I can deduct some cost because I'm a leader. ... BUT I was taxed (FICA, Medicare, income tax, state tax) on that money. I don't get FICA and medicare tax back on my share. That $10,000 required me to contribute at least $2,000 (or more) to the fed and state governments. So, that other family got away with not paying any tax. They saved a lot $$$$. He and I have similar jobs and earn similar money. He had more get-up and go to sell the scout products.

 

So what is fair? Personally, I think the family should be issued a 1099 for income.

 

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IMHO, we all want to look the other way because we justify the wrong because it helps the youth and it's a small amount and it helps us achieve our own goals (i.e. youth participation, character building, etc) I'm not sure that moves it from wrong to right hough.

 

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The IRS does have an INSUBSTANTIAL test. I don't know know the threshold. Seems something like if you raise $3,000, it is okay to use $30 or $100 to thank those who helped. I'm sure it would not be viewed as insubstantial if you allocated $2000 or $3,000 to the participants.

 

Personally ... I think you're fine when the amounts are small but it's unethical when the amounts get significant.

 

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IRS only cares when you get big enough to make it worth their effort.

 

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Anyway ... I just don't think we should be so cavalier about it when we say if it's okay or not.

If everyone is going to merge patrols because of activity attrition, then one might as well forget about the patrol method.

 

I set patrols at 6-8 boys. They pick and chose who they want. If their buddies don't show up for activities, they need to work that out, that's what small group dynamics require. If one can miss and no one cares because they are going to merge patrols anyway, what's the big deal about skipping. But if my buddies need me there, peer-pressure comes to play.

 

If one is going to use patrol method, then use it. If one is going to go with the troop method, then use it. Mixing and matching, blending and stirring things up, just doesn't pan out in the long run. Either you're going to end up with frustrated patrols or a poorly run troop.

 

I had two boys that wanted to have their own patrol. I advised against it, but being boy-led, I let them. They were unable to recruit any new boys for their patrol, and the day before summer camp one of them broke his leg. The other boy had a pretty miserable time at summer camp doing his own cooking, cleaning and camp chores by himself. By the end of the summer he joined up (his decision) with another patrol. He had to request, on his own, joining another patrol and that patrol didn't have their 8 boys, took him in. His buddy had to request to join another patrol that was also short one member.

 

No one ever asked to try that "experiment" again. The two boys learned a valuable lesson and the others in the troop took notice and learned as well.

 

If one runs a truly patrol-method program, a lot of the "problems" that arise are taken care of by the boys themselves and tend to run quite smoothly once everyone figures out that the SM is going to stick to his guns about the patrol-method and not mess around with the patrol groupings.

 

Stosh

Well said. That's my experience too. I must admit though, we had a patrol of four for years that ran great and the scouts helped the younger scouts. Sometimes only two of them appeared. For them, it worked.

Formal ... never ... except as prayer before and Sunday church service. But ...

 

Scouts talk to each other all the time. And many many many parents that choose scouting choose it because it does have a faith component, even if it is not strongly pushed. In fact, that is an attractive thing as they can do the outdoors, character building, leadership, share faith without a strict tie to a church. But still with a faith component.

 

 

Many kids experiment with atheism. I think the fear is having other families that strongly represent support atheism and the affect that has on their own kids.

 

That's the trouble with scouts these days. Is it a church program? Is it a community program? Is it a school program? Is it an outdoor program? 40 years ago, you could do all those.

 

Today, you need to choose your niche because if you try to be everything to everyone someone will pick a fight with you.

 

That's why BSA needs to be about the program and let charter orgs choose the niche (faith, community, school, etc.).