fred johnson

Also ... I like the idea about making the funds visible. BUDGET IT. The visibility of the budget impact will reflect if it is okay or not.

HOW MUCH? - What are we talking? Two large pizzas and 20 cans of pop? Or a sit down meal at red lobster each month? Also, is this a 100+ person unit that sells $60,000 in popcorn a year and has a $25,000 budget? Or a 30 person unit with a $2000 budget. Reasonable could be $25 to $50 a meeting. I doubt if $10 per person with 10+ people twelve times a year is reasonable.

TOO MUCH CASH - Sometimes volunteer organizations with too much money start finding ways to spend it and create internal bickering that can tear them apart.

PERCEPTION - This is huge. Depending on how much money you are talking about, you WILL open yourselves up to personal attacks as many will see this as luxious and potentially unreasonable. What will parents and outsiders think? Most scout "volunteers" do incur significant cost themselves. If they hear about this, it will sound extravagent and there will be jealousy.

FUNDRAISING - You could also affect fundraising. I myself would have trouble giving money to a unit where I am already incuring cost if it is being spent on other volunteers instead of directly on the program.

EXAMPLE - Our district chair buys food for everyone out of his own pocket for the district meetings.

EXAMPLE - None of the leaders in any unit I am in have ever expensed gas or transportation unless the distance is 400 miles or longer round trip.

THINKING PATTERN - Is it the example you want to set for your scouts?

Leaders help units all the time without expensing the cost or thinking twice about it.

I did not address child care. That one is way out in left field for my experience. Does the scouting unit choose the baby sitter and/or incur risk if something happens? What is reasonable? Minimum wage? $20 per hour? $5 per kid per hour? I just would NOT get into the child care issue for meetings. Work around it or find another volunteer.

Give me a motivated 13-year-old Eagle over an 18th-Birthday Eagle any day.

I'm with Brewmeister on this one, we don't have enough information to know why the Scout is motivated to earn the Eagle so fast. I was reading the other day of an 11 year old who is going to an Ivy league college to become a doctor of something or other . The article didn't say if his parents are behind the boys motivation, I just assumed he isn't a run of the mill kid. Our job is to provide a program where every scout has the same opportunities to the activities as all the other scouts. If we do that correctly, the scouts follow their own vision, not ours. If the program is developed correctly, advancement and leadership are just two of the eight methods. The other six should keep the scouts busy and balance their experience in the troop. Since I have this T-shirt, I can say that a boy who is capable of earning Eagle by 13 typically has a lot of other special talents that a well meaning SM can tap from the scout. Still, my experience is the best a SM can expect is a one year delay. Also we can talk about leadership all we want, but biologically, 13 year olds aren't mature enough to understand the value of leadership. Maturity is really what is at stake here. Maturity of physical and mental health, maturity of character and maturity of citizenship. I'm guessing this 13 year old is not practicing enough of one or more of those areas of the program, or the program is failing all the scouts. Better check their camping program. Barry

While a SMC is neither pass or fail.....A SM can use scout spirit or performance of the POR to slow a lad down. But if a lad is gung ho then how can you fail him on scout spirit barring any behavior issues, which I bet the lad doesn't have any.....

 

As KDD pointed out.....it should have been done at either star or the Life position.

If he was not fit to be an Eagle those issues should have been addressed long before now. So this Scoutmaster has allowed 3 PORs and is just now having second thoughts. If he was elected to his PORs and fulfilled his duties to the satisfaction of his peers then what's the problem? We have a rocket scout in our troop, in 7th grade and is about to get his Life BOR. He is a good scout, very mature and very smart. I never seen one problem with him. My issue is the SM has not held him to a high standard for his current POR.

I will have a 13 year old eagle if he schedules his Board of Review anytime soon. It depends on the kid, his brother is 16 and still only Star. If you have a highly motivated kid who does everything he's supposed to age should not be an issue. I've heard similar grumblings here, which is why you have to document everything. My son decided when he was 10 years old that he would make Eagle before his brother and set himself on a course to do so. I'd hate to see any child punished for being motivated and industrious.

Random comments

- If you look for problems, you will find problems.

- Scouting is not about punishments.

- "Discipline must be constructive." Guide To Safe Scouting, page 2. Constructive discipline, in my opinion, is restorative discipline and teaches lessons.

- I don't care for long documented procedural ways to handle discipline. They are never consistently applied and only get called when really serious things happen. At that point, you have bigger fish to fry then a procedure. You are also dealing with leader failings by writing a policy. Remember to also train the leader or find the right leader. *** You can never deal with leader failings by writing a policy. ***

- If the scout is a safety risk, you separate the scout from the troop. Period.

- If the scout will not behave within the bounds of the scout oath and law, he is removed until he is willing to work within the bounds of the scout oath and law.

- The best scoutmaster I've seen handled things with a shake of the head, sometimes a negative chuckle and phrases such as "What happened?" "How does feel about it?" "What caused that?" "How did he react?" "Why do you think he reacted that way?" He'd ask way way more questions and kept the questions very simple and almost naive. Usually the asking of the questions was plenty for the scout to know what he did was unacceptable. Then, he would suggest a way to handle it.

- One thing that took me awhile to figure out ... Scouting isn't for every kid. Some kids are mean. Some have bigger issues. Some kids might really really need scouting to teach them lessons, but it can kill a troop. Troops need to identify those scouts and make they fairly and consistently lay down the law before that scout drives many other scouts away.

Why is the Comm. Chair involved to this extent with Discipline and punishment of the boys? The ScoutMaster has the final say with everything pertaining to the boys, not the CC. I used to have issues within my troop when I first took it over... we had a few "bad apples" that were only interested in causing trouble... once I took over the boys realized that they'll actually have to earn what they receive, I now leave initial punishment to the SPL and ASPL... they have a heavier and more appropriate hand than I ever would. If something occurs that warrants my attention as SM, the boys bring the accused to me, and they plead their case. I have never had to send a boy home from a campout, never had to call the police, or anything like that. I've had one boy tell me to "screw off" after he was being increasingly difficult during a troop meeting, In that case I pulled the boy aside and told him I wanted to speak with his mother when she came to pick him up after the meeting. I mentioned it to her, and she had him write an apology to me and now he's the most polite boy in the troop :-)

Protesting "as an american"? Really? In every country, scouts is about citizenship and that DOES include the flag and a certain level of patriotism. Now, ya don't need to wave the flag or run and join the military. But it does mean a certain level of "proud to be an american". I'm astounded anyone would question that.

It's like saying you are member of a church, but the church doesn't believe in the existence of God and doesn't really have any core beliefs (i.e. UUA). It's like saying you are believe everyone needs to pay their fair share but then protesting when the taxes hit you. But then supporting taxes that hit either the working poor or the top 1%.

"As an American" ... ya know ... scouts also say the pledge of allegiance before each meeting. Your scouts from India, New Zealand and the U.K. already have a much bigger issue. How about the Scout Oath?

Sorry ... that question did get to me. But to be honest, I know very few scouts who know the outdoor code. They read it once and then tend to forget it.

I agree that National will probably not provide any rules or guidelines for implementing the policy change. So I ask all of you, what do you plan to do come Jan 1st? Will it be "business as usual"? Will you hold a meeting for all parents to inform them of the change? Will you use a Scoutmaster Minute to inform the boys?

 

For me personally I wasn't actually aware of the membership policy when my son and I first joined Cub Scouting 5 years ago. I learned about it after the 2 year project that maintained the previous decisions, but that was only due to my involvement at the Roundtables. I think most parents who are not leaders didn't know the full story then and may not come Jan 1st. save for what they hear in the news media.

 

When a boy joins a Troop, Pack or Crew do you read the membership policy to them?

 

So, are we unit leaders obligated to tell parents or boys how the membership change will be implemented in our unit? If we are, do we allow a discussion on sexual orientation with the boys?

 

Oh, the joys of leadership.

FTB

It took me a minute to understand the comment direction of the author. This is really a mess but it's a mess that society is in now, not just scouts. All the rules are up in the air.

 

Heck, if you have someone who has declared a homosexual attraction, then the kid that has the gym locker next to the other kid is both stressed by the situation (not just a false perception or a fault of the kid) but also faces some very personal jokes and comments by others in his gym class even if he is not involved in any way other than having a near by locker. But then again, most schools are now removing the grading requirement that you showering after gym is a required part of the class.

 

Same for scouts. If you have an openly gay scout, I could never direct a scout to share a tent with them. That would be wrong same as directing a female scout to share a tent with a male scout. And it is all the exact same issues. Awkward situations. Mean jokes. Misunderstandings. And also real chance that a mis-balance of power could cause one to be pressured by the other.

 

Perhaps the only real choice now is that everyone uses one-person tents or larger group tents like other nations use. That seems like the most reasonable situation now.

It took me a minute to understand the comment direction of the author. This is really a mess but it's a mess that society is in now, not just scouts. All the rules are up in the air.

Heck, if you have someone who has declared a homosexual attraction, then the kid that has the gym locker next to the other kid is both stressed by the situation (not just a false perception or a fault of the kid) but also faces some very personal jokes and comments by others in his gym class even if he is not involved in any way other than having a near by locker. But then again, most schools are now removing the grading requirement that you showering after gym is a required part of the class.

Same for scouts. If you have an openly gay scout, I could never direct a scout to share a tent with them. That would be wrong same as directing a female scout to share a tent with a male scout. And it is all the exact same issues. Awkward situations. Mean jokes. Misunderstandings. And also real chance that a mis-balance of power could cause one to be pressured by the other.

Perhaps the only real choice now is that everyone uses one-person tents or larger group tents like other nations use. That seems like the most reasonable situation now.

Down significantly. At least the school handed out our fliers this year.

http://www.scoutmastercg.com/nostalg...e-of-scouting/

 

Some think we've diminished the ideals of ’manliness’ , traditional patriotism, bootstrap initiative, competitiveness and rigor in achievement but have they really examined what those ideas actually mean? Scouting does not consider that these things are scarce, unobtainable qualities, but that each individual Scout has vast potential to develop them .

 

We wrangle and argue over measurements; what is ‘true’ manliness, patriotism, achievement? Instead of a system of measurement Scouting sets a star to travel by: the full realization of each individual Scout’s potential. Our principal aim is that individual ideal; interdependent, useful human beings who become active citizens and make the world a better place.

 

Detractors invoke creeping ‘political correctness’ and suggest that we have watered down our decisiveness and morality. This old chestnut of an argument was used to condemn innovation and change since the dawn of civilization; “Romans are so trendy and effete – what ever happened to good old Etruscans?†In their opinion all we have to do is reprint the original edition of the Scout handbook and return to our imagined ideal past that, of course, never existed. Nostalgia is pleasant, but it is not history. Our forebears had to muddle through the same sorts of flaws and pressures we encounter. They did there best and so can we.

 

Scouting has always been, and will always remain, something that principally happens when we are out-of-doors camping and trekking our way through the natural world. This is our tradition, but we don’t do follow tradition blindly.

 

We don’t go camping as a romantic, aesthetic, throwback to the good old days. We go camping because it is the most useful way to achieve the aims of Scouting. We use patrols and engage youth in leadership not because it’s a quaint, anachronistic, tradition but because that’s how we achieve the aims of Scouting.

 

Most importantly we do these things because that is what our Scouts want to do! Despite a century of societal and cultural changes there’s not much difference between present day Scouts and those few that camped out on Brownsea island at the dawn of the Scouting movement.

That’s our past, present and future all rolled into one.

 

Our Scouts neither need, nor do they particularly want, big flashy programs and entertainments. We aren't trying to entertain, we want to engage our Scouts.

 

Scouting is relevant, and it will always be, so long as we don’t make it into a historic re-enactment, blindly follow tradition, and resist the temptation to misdirect it’s simple intentions.

 

Scouting is not about recreating the past, we are looking toward the future.

Please note that I am not an advocate for re-creating the past. My original post was about having a strong character and to know the jobs such that you can say it as it is. (John Wayne scouter). Likewise, there is a value in being laid back and letting things work out (letting the scouts solve the issue) and not getting overly uptight. (Peter Fonda scouter).

I was frustrated at the time with the "Felix Unger" scouters and the "Donald Trump" scouters that I was dealing with.

Eagledad wrote it so well. Youth go thru hell in school these days.

When I see people arguing over who is worthy of what rank I just get nauseated. Our number one goal as scouters should always be to provide a safe haven for our scouts. Thru skills training and outings, scouts bond and build friendships. Heck, how do you not grow close when camping out in the woods each month.

Our troops have had scouts who have threatened suicide while at school and elsewhere. I know scouts who've dealt with drugs and pregnancies and etc etc etc. Our scouts go thru real issues. I am glad if scouting can be their safe haven.

California HR #23 looks like a meaningless feel-good-ism that does nothing. It's hype without substance.

I have a friend from Mexico who's school was open. No one forced you to attend class. But if you failed a class, you were out. I'd almost rather see something like that within reason. Essentially you want to learn, we'll teach you. Not wanting to learn, go away. Come back when you want to learn. Might be a GED program. Might be other. But if you don't want to be there, then you don't have to be. Then put it on the families to install in their kids that school is important. Education is important. Employ-ability is important. It might take a village to raise a kid, but it takes the family to really screw him up.

Suing the BSA is a growth industry, most probably because the BSA has a history of taking legal positions that make juries want to see them suffer.

 

The 2010 Portland judgement against the BSA showed this. There were people within the organization who had knowledge of what was going on, swept it under the rug, then went to court with the "we can do what we want because of our Congressional charter" attitude and legal arguments as sound as those for the new registration fee increase.

 

The juries saw right through it, and hit them with $18.5 million in punitive damages. The judge saw through it too, and ordered the secret files to be released.

 

Here is the press release from the plaintiff's attorney on this latest case. Interesting that in this case, two professional Scouters are named as perpetrators.

http://blog.kosnoff.com/a-dozen-victims-identified-in-sex-abuse-case-against-boy-scouts-of-america/

 

Six months ago, this lawyer's news releases said he was representing 80 people against the BSA. Now it's 100.

 

This isn't going to be pretty.

For those who care, I think BSA did more than was standard at the time abuses occurred. I'm not saying BSA was perfect and I'm not saying individuals didn't fail to live up to their responsibilities. But BSA had more in place than most of society.

The amount isn't that big but I already contribute plenty and I have many in our pack that are stickers for exact amounts, precision reimbursements, etc. I'm sure we will be fine. But we need to make up the difference.

I suspect it will be something silly like the week we go to recharter we will review the roster. If someone has not attended for three months, we will not renew their membership even if they paid dues. 2nd year Webelos? You want us to pay $24 plus $12 (because we've done boy's life in the past) for two months of pack membership. No. They can ask their troop to cover that. Plus, they have to submit a new membership application anyway when they join the troop. Save $36 a scout by not renewing them in December.

It just irks me no end. We've already got all the fliers and discussed and budgeted for our year.

I am not one to blame national. I love BSA. But someone really really screwed up at national big time to have this happen like it is. If it was my company, seriously, someone would get fired. This is going to have bottom line impact and screw things up for many people.

ARGH !!!

Our council is asking us to pay 2014 prices this December when our units recharter. We have already printed our recruiting materials and already received some checks. Are we supposed to go out and ask for more money? Is the money supposed to mystically appear? Or do we guess who won't continue and drop them and use their money to cover the other person. (Ethical issue)

This is going to get ugly quick.

ARGH !!!

The thing that gets me the most is when a troop leader who has a cub switches from their troop's feeder pack to our pack because our pack is "stronger" or because their troop's aligned pack is struggling. Then starts promoting their troop in our pack without any investing in our pack to make our pack better. Our pack has strong links to two troops and weaker ties to five troops. We don't need another troop promoting their program in our pack. IMHO, I'd rather see that family stay in his troop's feeder pack and try to make that pack better.

This has happened multiple times and it does get my goat.

As a recently retired Cubmaster, I fought hard against feeder packs to Troops. Troops should earn the Scouts that crossover to them. Also, not every Troop is for every Scout. Just as there are 31 flavors at Baskin & Robbins, there are that many and more Troops. I didn't like the fact that everyone went to one Troop year after Year. There were several good Troops around us. So, I started bringing in other Troops to do things with the Pack. So for the 5 years before they all went to one Troop. Now, we are in four other Troops for a total of five.

 

FYI: I also grew the Pack from 25 Scouts to 64 by the time I left this year. It's all about the Program!

 

Several things will attract Scouts to a Troop.

Is the Program at the Troop good? Do the current Scouts like it? Is it the same year after year after year?

Car Camping vs Backpacking? Who really wants to schelp stuff to and fro from a Trailer for hours? Maybe getting out on the trail or waterway is faster and easier?

Merit Badge Mills....yuck....Who wants to sit and do course work at night. That's Homework. Boys don't want Home Work! Put the OUTING back into SCOUTING!

 

 

Also, the one thing that jumps out at me...how is the CC the SM? The COR can be the CC. That Troop needs to run through Troop Committee Challenge (and not the online version) and also host the ILST for the Scouts/PLC. If the PLC is doing the samething year after year...inject some other activities. Yes, the Adults will have to make suggestions and use Guided Discovery to help steer them. It's not Adult Led or influenced...but guided. And no that's not another word to hide Adult Led either.

Is the program good? Okay. Of the eight troops in our city, I'd say most are good with strong programs. Though I hate comparing "youth led" as it's more slamming another unit with little basis, those that market the best seem to have the most adult direct leadership.

I know your comments. But I just don't buy it. During my time as a pack leader, we've taken the pack from failing with all the leaders quitting to drowning in volunteers and a 70 cub pack. Our troop has multiple scouts working on Eagle and our troop doesn't even emphasize it. It's the kids choosing to do it. But each year our scouts bounce to another unit and several good troops in our city are starving for scouts. Friends are broken up and leaders get pissed at each other.

Fred,

 

In response to your question on why change from the CO after Cub Scouts, people have already mentioned that every troop meets different needs. But sometimes the folks who make great Cub Scout leaders and make an excellent, active pack because they are organized, goal oriented, etc are horrible Boy Scout leaders because they do not allow the boys to make any decisions and constantly have them working on advancement and civic service in stead of having fun.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I do like advancement. It give the Scouts goals to aim for, and more importantly gives them important life skills. Even the "paper pushing" MB's I really do not like are important. But when every meeting is focused on a MB, that's a problem. When it seems like you are doing service projects every single month, to the point that a camping trip or two are cancelled or part of the service project is a problem. Boys are transferring out or leaving all together because of that.

 

And don't think a unit commissioner, trainers, etc will help with the situation. Many folks have intervened to give advice, mentor, etc. and we have been ignored or told we don't know what we are talking about. One Eagle Scout point blank told the SM at his SMC how the troop was screwed up and what was needed to be done to fix it, and he was ignored. Only reason he is still sticking around is A) Order of the Arrow, and B) he is a DC with the pack.

 

Unfortunately it has gotten to the point that I have some reservations sending youth to the troop when doing Round Ups. In fact I ran into 1 youth and his mom whom I recruited for the troop this past May, and they have already quit the troop by mid-August. I wish I would have had the time talk to them to find out why they quit in less than 3 months, or less than 10-11 meetings.

Plus ... from what I've seen now from years of involvement is that ... #1 Families new to the program do not know what to look for when troop shopping. #2 Families can't form useful opinions based on just a few experiences. #3 Troops (at least in our area) jump multiple hoops to look better than and different from the other troops.

I've seen Webelos "shop" for troops and then flock like a bunch of lemmings to one troop. Every few years the flock changes directions to join a different troop. A troop can be starved for a few years and then drown in new Webelos a few years later. Plus it's abusive to volunteers who have invested so much over the years to then be asked to jump hoops yet again so that Webelos decide to join them. How many different times do we need to recruit the same kids?

I live in a city with many "type A" troops, very driven, very program oriented. IMHO, it pits volunteer leader against volunteer leader and gets people clearly upset with each other. Conversely, we have multiple troops with experienced leaders who together have 50+ years in scouting. Yet their "feeder" packs have less than 10 years of experience (i.e. one or two years per leader).

Treating packs and troops as separate units is a broken model. Period.

Promoting a big decision after five years of scouting is a broken model. Period.

Structure that promotes experience heavy troops and struggling packs is a broken model. Period.

Unit dues... Can't see that happening. It would kill many units. Our dues are only a 1/3 of our annual $140 budget per scout.

I don't think this is a BSA cost increase. Bull. It's a corporate FOS issue. Lost $700,000 per year from Intel. Lost $150,000 from UPS. Lost $300,000 from Verizon. And that list can go on and on and on. BSA received huge amounts of donations in the past. Now, those donations are drying up because of BSA's political position. So, scouts need to make up the difference. That's the reason for the huge increases in membership dues.

One interesting fact. At $25 a year, we will be more aggressive to drop scouts off our charter if they did not pay. We've covered dues for "iffy" scouts for years.

PLUS ... the real cost is $37. We also cover the Boy's Life magazine for every scout. So, we need to route $37 per scout to BSA every year. WOW.

Feeder troops and tight linkages only work so long. Other troops contact Webelos directly asking them to come visit their troop and it can quickly subvert years of effort.

The "grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence" until you recognize they are just gift wrapping manure.