Eamonn

Have to admit to never having lost a minutes sleep worrying about what Scouts and non-Scouts wear while working on a project. Back when OJ did his project, I know that it was during the summer. The project involved a fair amount of digging. He had about 20 of pals his age helping him, most were not members of the BSA and from the pictures I have seen (I was away with the Ship the weekend of his project!). There wasn't a uniform in sight. The project was done for the local YMCA. OJ is not a member of the YMCA, I'm not sure how many? If any of the people who helped with the project are members. I'm not a lawyer. But I kinda think that when the YMCA gave their permission /approval for the project,the YMCA was not only allowing OJ to go ahead and do the project, they were also allowing the BSA to take on the work. The project was reviewed before it was started by his Troop leadership and approved by the District Advancement Chair. Who was acting as an agent of the Council. While I'm not an expert in contract law, I think that some kind of a contract was in some way implied. OJ was doing the project as a member of the BSA, doing work that had been approved by the Council. To my pea sized noggin this makes this a Scouting activity and does come under the BSA. When the project was completed and approved by the YMCA, OJ met with the board of the local YMCA and received a certificate from the board, he was in full uniform for the photos. The District has used the grounds of the YMCA for several events, I have not been involved in the organization of these events. So I'm unsure if the YMCA has requested a certificate of insurance for these or not. I do know that when OJ asked the local Director of the YMCA if a certificate of insurance was needed for the project? The Director said that it wasn't needed. Of course he is just the local guy and as we know local officials are sometimes not always right. I really don't see any difference in a Scout working on an Eagle Scout Leadership project than a Patrol of Scouts camping in Farmer Jones field. In my book both a real Scouting activities and if the paper work (Eagles Scout Leadership Service project book -Signed with all the correct approvals - Tour Permit and SM approval for a Patrol Camp.) Both are Scouting activities. To say that a Lad working on a approved project is in some way not working or involved in /on a Scouting activity? Just seems a bit daffy. As far as the uniform thing goes? I don't see any real need for a uniform to be worn and as in OJ's case with so many non Scouts helping it would just seem a little silly. Eamonn.

"Why should it be needed for him to do more than one at a time? Why not let him commit to one job for the 6-9month duration and then let him proceed to a new challenge afterward? Again I'm all for allowing the Lad to follow his heart. If he enjoys working with the little fellows, gets on well with the adults in the Pack and wants to serve ? Why not? OJ,enjoys working with young kids. At school he spent time helping with some of the classes in the elementary school. He did this while serving as SPL,Vice Chief (Admin) in the OA Lodge as well as serving as Section Secretary for the OA. I have never heard that a Scout who serves as an officer in the OA (Chief?) has been prevented or asked not to serve in a POR in a Troop. Some youth members are happy to serve in a POR in a Troop while also serving as a officer in a Venturing unit. I really think that the choice should be left with the individual Scout. If he finds that he is indeed spreading himself too thin? I would hope that there is a life lesson in that? Many adults find that it takes years to see that they are taking on too much -Maybe a youth finding it out for himself at a young age? Isn't such a bad thing! We would never think of telling a Lad what sports or after school activities he should be involved in or how many. So I fail to see what the big deal is. Eamonn.

"Its purpose is to help youth develop leadership skills through coaching and mentoring from others. The Position of Responsibility is the tool we use to allow the scout to apply and practice those skills. " Bob White -I'm with you all the way. However: " The purpose and process is not improved or aided by multiple positions" This also holds water and makes good sense, but.. Depending on what the position is? Taking into account what the Scout wants and doesn't want to do and is able to manage? I see no harm in a Boy Scout who wants to serve and is able to serve in more than one position, doing so. It is not going to harm him in any way and is not going to harm the BSA. I see this as making the program fit the boy and not allowing us to fall into making the boy fit the program. A Lad who is happy serving as a Den Chief and is doing a good job should not be told that he has to give this up in order to take on another POR. Ea.

"I am putting together a brochure for our troop." "Or any other literature that would look good for my brochure? " What is the purpose of the brochure? Who is it aimed at? Does it really matter who said what? Ea

Very often at work when an inmate has been called on the carpet and is a little upset he will remind me that he is "A grown man!" I was explaining to a young African-American inmate the error of his ways. He got a little miffed with me, gave me the "I'm a grown man" speech, but what I thought wasreally funny was when he added "I'm not your son!!" I looked at him and looked at my arm, which is like the rest of me; very white and couldn't help but laugh. In Scouts I do tend to use the term kid a lot. In fact now we have female Sea Scouts, I kinda got out of the habit of using "Boys". I know some young people do at times get a little upset. The fault is mine, I just can't get used to using youth or youths. I think or like to think that when I use "Kid" it is almost a term of endearment. I certainly don't mean it as any sort of a put down. Eamonn.

Having an adult remain in the Pack is normally not a problem. But sometimes, not all the time having a Lad who has just left the pack and joined a Troop participate in Pack activities can be a headache. Of course a lot depends on the kid and on the parent. I kinda, sorta think allowing some time to pass before allowing a new Boy Scout to participate in Cub Scout activities is a good idea. As far as I know there is no rule or anything that says a Boy Scout can't participate in any activity that his parent is active in. Bur I might be wrong. Eamonn.

To be safe you should contact someone who works with taxes for a living. (Tax Attorney / Accountant.) Many if not most Councils do not allow units to use their tax exempt numbers. Some Chartering Organizations do. Some units are covered by the 501(3)©. If they have completed all the paperwork and paid all the fees (Here in PA we paid a little over $1,500.00) We seen it as a worthwhile expense as we accept boats as donations. To my way of thinking for most units here in PA it just isn't worth the time or the expense. Ea.

"She who no longer needs to obeyed travels with a dog which gets carsick so the dog gets sedated. Maybe you could get some pills for your wife." Maybe if I took the pills: My driving might improve? Or I might not notice her complaints!! We drove home on the PA Turnpike the other night at 55 MPH (65 is the limit) The "Reason" being that I drive too fast! I'm working on that one!! Ea.

Some of the Ship members are returning to Camp Blue Heron, some are working at summer camps. I'm thinking that depending on how Her Who Must Be Obeyed is feeling that OJ and I might pay a quick visit to Ireland and maybe Hong Kong. I'm trying to talk my Sister who lives in England to come over for a visit. This year for the first time in a very long time I have something like 11 weeks vacation. I did take one week in January for my 25th wedding anniversary. Her Who Must Be Obeyed is talking about me driving out to California. She feels that she isn't up to a plane trip. I do love her very deeply, but I'm not sure I could take her complaining about my driving for that long of a trip!! Of course a trip like this might be my door opener to me getting my new car. At this time I'm not planning any type of Scouting event or trip. Ea.

Wonder what would happen if adults were only allowed to serve in one position /job ? Ea.

FScouter Talk about having to use self-control!! That last one was just too easy. So easy in fact that even I'm not going there. Ea.

I think I've done well, when I return home with the same number of Scouts as I went with/ I think I've done really well when they are the same Scouts. More and more I'm starting to think that some people are only happy when they have something to complain about. Sticking that cute little sign that reads "The future is in your hands" In the mens restroom is never a good idea. The best Scouter's are able to remember what little so and so's they were when they were Scouts. Working with people who claim to be experts in First Aid and or Youth Protection makes your hair turn white. Working with people who are experts in working with line is a real joy. Sales of that smelly stuff Axe to Scouts should be a hanging offense. One good thing about not having a kid who is active in the program is that you know that a time will come when you send all the little darlings home. A Lad who joins Scouts is until he is about 14 very much like a dog. He wants to please you. He obeys and remains close at hand. At about 14 or 15 he turns into a cat. Ask him to do anything and he gives you the "Look" The only time you really ever know where he is and what he is up to is at meal times. Scouts who sing the loudest are the Scouts who can't sing. - But they have the best times at campfires. The best Scouter's can take a joke, they are able to make fun of themselves, laugh with Scouts but never ever in a million years at Scouts. Ea.

Sometimes -Maybe!! I'm sure no one would go ahead and have the SPL take on much more responsibility. But a good many of the Den Chiefs in our area are the son of the Den Leader. So if a parent is spending time as a Den Leader and junior is going to have to tag along anyway? I don't see the harm. We have a Lad in the Ship who started working with a Den back when his Mom was Den Leader. He really enjoys working with the little Lads. He is now 19, an Eagle Scout, has served as an SPL and the Ship's Boatswain, he is also a member of a Venturing unit but has continued to work with the Cub Scouts (I'm not sure if or what he is registered with the pack as.) Of course he is the Lad who when he finishes school wants to work as a DE!! Trying to prevent a Lad from doing something that he wants to do that does no one any harm? And might help others? Is not what we are about. Ea.

One thing that seemed odd to me when I moved from down town London to rural PA, was that people didn't seem to have fences. Up until I seen this 100 yard idea here I have to admit to not knowing about it!! Back home when we camped with the Troop each Patrol made a big thing of roping of their site. This was back in the days of Wet-pits, dry-pits and when Burn'em, Bash'em and Bury'em was thought to be the best way of disposing of cans. Patrols camped as patrols, they cooked as Patrols, they slept in a six -eight-man tent as a Patrol. The Patrol had it's own tents, Patrol Box, cooking equipment, dinning fly. Scouts who didn't belong to a Patrol didn't enter another Patrols site without being invited. We tended to do more Patrol Camps than seems to be done here in the US. Depending on where the Patrol opted to go, we either used the Troop van to drop them and the Patrol equipment off or they used light weight equipment and made their own way. At summer camp we had as many as 14 Patrols camping in the same field. The patrols were busy doing what they were doing. Them being busy meant that visiting other Patrols just didn't happen. If a Lad did want to visit or waste time by go to another Patrol? I don't think 100 yards would make a heck of a lot of difference. A quality program which kept the Scouts busy would to me seem more of an answer than a couple of hundred yards. Eamonn.

The idea that someone will spent a weekend learning all the skills needed to be a great leader and master all the outdoor skills is a foolish one. The participants who have attended most of the Outdoor Skill courses I have been involved in, tend to be a good mix of people who do know the skills and people who don't. They tend to learn from each other. I know when I was faced with learning Navigation, I went out and found several "Experts". One guy was too much of an expert!! I think maybe I allowed him to in some way intimidate me. Thankfully the other guy I asked was a real gem and really helped me out. Back "In the day" We spent a lot of time talking about "Guided Discovery". It can be hard for a presenter to present a session that fits the needs of everyone who is participating. I have at times paired up someone who just doesn't get it with the person who can do it in his or her sleep. Very often the training will provide the spark and the participant will once they realize that they need some help will look for resources or ask where the resources can be found. Nearly all the Scouter's I know who are good in some area love nothing more than teaching or passing on their skills and know how to others. A lot does at the end of the day come down to "The Lord helps those who help themselves". It took me years as a Scout to become good with knots, lashings expecting someone to get it after a session at a course is not realistic. I'm sure if there were some kind of test or exam after a training the people who passed would feel great. I think the people who didn't pass might feel that they were wasting their time and might quit. Given enough time, the right resources and a person who wants to master a skill I do believe it can be mastered. Eamonn.

Lisabob A lot of what we do comes down to a matter of trust. We all want and need people who really care about us and what we do. If we are only doing something in order to meet some goal or look good on paper?? We are sunk before we start. As you know I don't hold out much faith in the future of Commissioner Service. I do think that a Unit Commissioner who really does care for the Unit and all the people in the unit (Not just the youth leaders!!) is the best kind of support. Sadly most times District and Council types have so much to do they just don't have the time to get to know the people and find out what the real needs are. We (Me) end up going on half truths, gossip!! Or reports that just don't really give the full picture. In a couple of other threads the old "Give a man a fish..." has been brought up. Having a handful of District people running around trying to spoon feed unit leaders is not ever going to work. In fact I think it ends up doing more harm than good. Giving real ownership of the unit and the program to everyone involved in the unit: The CO, COR, Committee Members and the youth leaders, along with quality training's. Will go a long way to help. Sometimes the best question is "What are you going to do about this?" Not "This is what we are going to do!" Ea.

I don't have anything to do with the cable company and own no part of it!! I first became a customer about 25 years ago. At that time my choices for TV were an antenna, rabbit ears or the cable. They were the only cable company so I had no real choice. My monthly cable bill was $9.05. Over the past 25 years they have made a lot of changes and improvements. 25 years back I think I received 28 channels. Now I have about 70. They offer two speeds of Internet service (I'm on the cheap one) They have a range of TV services, many of which I have never taken the time to really find out about (They have done a poor job of telling me!!) They are pushing their new phone service. The local phone company Verizon is also now offering DSL Internet service, phone service and TV. Dish-network is pushing satellite TV. In order to keep up with everything Armstrong spent a lot of money changing the cables they used to use to whatever it is they are now using?? The ads they are airing on the TV seem to me to be selling fast friendly service. The ads for Verizon to me seem to be selling technology. But when I go on line and try to understand what the real cost is there is a lot of small print and hidden charges. I don't know much about the Dish-network. It seems to me that they offer a cheap rate for a while and then hike up the cost. The cable company does a good job of supporting the communities that they serve. I have been involved in Scouting for about 45 years, 25 years in the BSA. Back when I joined a Boy Scout Troop in London, my choice was: The local Boy's Club who spent all their time boxing. I didn't like the idea of being hit! So I passed on that one. The Boy's Brigade, who never seemed to do anything or the Boy Scouts who went to camp and had great summer trips. When I moved over to the USA, I was impressed at how more organized the BSA was. Maybe I just haven't noticed? But other than Venturing, not very much has changed in the BSA over the past 25 years. What we offer to a young Lad joining isn't much different than it was 25 years back. I'm not sure if that is all good or all bad? The marketing of the BSA seems to focus on selling the program to the parents. It seems to dwell on building character and values. I have yet to meet a kid that joined Scouting because he felt the need for some sort of character overhaul or needed his values worked on. I do think that the people who volunteer to serve have changed a lot over the past 25 years. I look at the Scouter's who were around 25 years back and many were like my Father-in-law. Ex-service men who had served their country and enjoyed the feeling of comradeship and fellowship that serving had given them. They were used to rules and regulations and didn't seem to mind following them. I think my generation who wanted to ask why? and didn't just accept things at face value changed how we went about doing things. I'm not sure if the BSA has ever accepted this? I get confused when I hear that more and more people are volunteering, but at the same time fewer and fewer people are joining service type clubs like the Lions, Rotary and the like. While I of course respect the views of the people who want to for some reason turn the clock back and think that doing things the way that they were done a long time ago will help improve things? I'm just not so sure we can "Sell" that to the youth of today? On the other hand I'm not so sure that trying to push Management type courses as leadership courses to the youth is the best of ideas. We at times seem to get lost in "What we want to do" and "How we go about doing things." Trying to marry the two (The Game and the purpose) does get a little mixed up. I know at times I tend not to want to accept ideas that others think are great. Some years back there was talk about installing a computer Lab at summer camp. This to me just seemed daffy. I still think it's daffy, but to be honest I never really took the time to think about it or find out more. - It just wasn't my idea of what Scouting should be!! So I was willing to just dismiss the idea, without much thought. Much as some of us might not like it, I think we are all aware that change is inevitable.. Old timers, like myself do in our own little way hope that whatever changes do come are not too sweeping and pray that we in no way lose the things that we do well. If I were to have to come up with the Ultimate Question, I think it might read something like: "Are we meeting the needs of the youth and the communities that we serve?" Eamonn.

Lisabob I kinda think part of the problem lies in the fact that District and Council Committees feel that they need to do something. Many if not most of the adults who serve at the Unit level do put vast amounts of time and energy into meeting and serving the needs of the youth that are in the unit at any given time. Of course this is in no way a bad thing. I'm not sure how getting the idea that they are just passing through and are not going to be around forever. Along with the idea that they need to be stewards of the unit for the youth that will follow can be put across? Eamonn.

At times it seems to me, that we (Well me anyway!!)Do tend to read more into something than is really there. Then at times I fail to notice what the real question is. 99.9% of the time in the "Real World" I tend to shoot from the hip without thinking of what the "Bigger Picutre" might be. If I seen a Lad who I didn't know wearing a couple of patches that were out of place. I think I might smile and take plenty of no notice. If I knew him or her, I think I might have a very friendly word in their ear and let them know. I'm almost sure that the thought that I was in some way taking away from youth leadership or I was in some way doing real harm by telling them would never cross my mind. I'm sure I'd just open my big mouth and tell them. If this in some way makes me less of a leader? So be it. Eamonn

I wonder what might have happened if a group of Scouter's were hanging out at a Roundtable and someone came along and asked a question to the group? The guys I tend to "Hang out" with do tend to know each other and we do tend to tease each other. All in good fun. I kinda expect the reply given in that situation would be given in a different way than if the same question was asked by the same person at a training. I'm 100% for this being a great place as a resource, but I think if it were to become just a resource place? All the replies would end up being links to where to find the book answer on the BSA web site. I have to admit that when I read Margaret's question I seen it as a very simple question. I failed to see it as having anything to do with any sort of bigger picture (Youth led or whatever). We (Scouter's) do at times do fail to remember that not everyone is a Scouter. A few years back a First Class Twit from our Council took a small group of boys away for a weekend by himself. While they were away he did some stupid ceremony which involved tyeing the boys to trees and scratching the letter T on their foreheads. He ended up serving time in the county jail. But I was surprised at the number of Scouter's who wanted to blame the parents!! They said that the parents ought not to have allowed the Scouts to go when there wasn't two deep leadership. I would hope that every Scouter knows all about two deep leadership, but the truth is not every parent does. I'll bet before this happened the parents seen this twit as being a nice guy who was willing to give up his time to work with their kids. Eamonn.

gigibw Hi and Welcome. In the past forum members have discussed "Adult Patrols". Some people are all for them and say that they work well, while others like me are not so keen on the idea. The Adult Patrol Patch? To my way of thinking becomes a Uniform discussion. The "By the book" answer is that adults don't wear patrol Patches. In times past Wood Badge participants were given a patrol patch to wear on their uniform shirt while attending the course. While these patches are no longer given and wearing the patch is no longer part of the course, some courses still continue to hand them out. While I would never wear a Adult Patrol Patch, I can't help thinking that at the end of the day there are far more important things to worry about and be concerned about than a little patch on a adult leaders shirt. It most defiantly in my book is not a hanging offense. Some people might say that by not doing things by the book the adults are setting a poor example for the Scouts they serve? This might be true? If a Troop feels that having an adult Patrol in some way helps improve the program that the Scouts they serve and wearing a little patch helps the leaders work better? I'm happy to just ignore it. But if the "Boss" (COR) Has strong feelings that they should not be worn? He is the "Boss" and I'd be just as happy no to wear one. When your not sure what to do ? Following the rules is the best thing to do. Ea.

About a month back I got talked into doing the training for our District Committee. I really need to take a look at how we do this. But that's for another thread. One guy at the training works for our local Cable Company. They provide cable TV, Internet, and are now into phone line service. They are not a huge company, serving only (As far as I know) parts of SW-PA. My dealings with them have always been good, they provide a good service, stand behind what they sell, seem to train the people who work for them well, come when the say they will come. I'm not sure what position in the company this guy holds. I do know the General Manager, he used to be based in our area when he was an Area Manager and he served on the District Committee. During a break from the Training we were talking about District Service. He said that his company was looking for the Ultimate Question. He went on to say that they had settled on "Would you recommend Armstrong Cable to your friends and neighbors?" For the past month or so I have had this on one of my back burners. I have read the threads about membership and dwindling numbers, taken note of what other forum members have said. Seems to me that what I got out of that thread was that our youth today tend to do things in a different way than the way we older folk used to do and kids for some reason are not as physically active as kids were when I was a kid. I followed the thread about God and the Eagle Scout BOR. Have to admit that it seemed to me that some people think they are walking on egg shells, maybe trying to be overly politically correct? Most BOR are made up of people who do understand what they are doing and try to do a good job, but of course some people who think they are always right do try and impose their views and will on others. I'm deeply saddened when I look at how we just don't seem to be able to reach and hold on to the youth. I do believe that Scouts and Scouting is able to offer programs that kids will find attractive, fun and adventurous. I believe that the volunteers who give up their time are for the most part good people who have great intentions. There are a few bad apples but these are very few. While we can moan and complain, I think for the most part most units do their own thing. National isn't overseeing anything, Councils and Districts don't get involved unless there is a really big problem and a good many of the CO have no idea what the units they charter are up to. If "Would you recommend Armstrong Cable to your friends and neighbors?" Is the ultimate question for a local cable company. What would be the ultimate question for the BSA, Scouts and Scouting? Not just one section (Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts or Venturing) But the organization. Would one "Ultimate Question" cover all the sections? Would the volunteers ignore it? Or would they try and use it as a tool to improve things? Eamonn.

Gold Winger, You posted " Who says that women aren't in charge of the universe? " I'll have to ask Her Who Must Be Obeyed and get back to you on that one! Ea.

The Polynesian Duck Dance Away Nakka Nakka nay,(With hands joined in front keep a beat to each word!!) Away Nakka Nakka nay, Etok, Etok, Etok (Repeat with hands under chin keeping a beat, once to the right and then once to the left) (Repeat verse) Quack, Quack, Quack (while hopping to the right) Quack, Quack, Quack (while hopping to the left) This is done 3 times, gradually getting faster with each repeat. On the final yell swoosh and fall to the ground. Eamonn (I know this is The Polynesian Duck Dance!! But it could be the anything you like Duck Dance!!)

A wild African Duck?? Waddles into the local Wawa (711??) The Duck makes a lot of noise -Quacking (Quack, quack, quack) The salesperson asks how may I help you? The Duck after a few more quacks asks for a pound of African grapes. The salesperson very politely explains that they don't sell African grapes. The Duck exits, making lots of quacking sounds. The Duck returns (Lots more quacks!) Again he asks for a pound of African grapes. Again the salesperson explains that the don't sell African grapes The Duck exits. (Yes more quacks) This happens three or four more times. The salesperson becomes more annoyed each time. Until he has had it!! He finally informs the Duck, that he has had it and they DON'T SELL AFRICAN GRAPES and furthermore if he returns he is going to get some nails and nail the Ducks feet to the floor!! The Duck leaves (Lots of quacks!!) Duck returns (MORE QUACKS) Before the African Duck can say a word the salesperson tells him that he is fed up, that they don't sell African grapes they never have and never will sell African grapes. The Duck quacks and asks for.. A pound of nails please!! Eamonn