Eamonn

Hi, I know some people are not going to like this!! But... The Guide to Safe Scouting offers the following: Youth Member Behavior Guidelines The Boy Scouts of America is a values-based youth development organization that helps young people learn positive attributes of character, citizenship, and personal fitness. The BSA has the expectation that all participants in the Scouting program will relate to each other in accord with the principles embodied in the Scout Oath and Law. One of the developmental tasks of childhood is to learn appropriate behavior. Children are not born with an innate sense of propriety and they need guidance and direction. The example set by positive adult role models is a powerful tool for shaping behavior and a tool that is stressed in Scouting. Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored. Member Responsibilities All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit. If confronted by threats of violence or other forms of bullying from other youth members, Scouts should seek help from their unit leaders or parents. Unit Responsibilities Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it. The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members. The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit. If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action. The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member. Like a lot of Guidelines, some of this is open to interpretation. The way I'm reading it! Is... Removing a member from a Unit can be done. It is not something that is done without due cause and thought. (Reading: " Children are not born with an innate sense of propriety and they need guidance and direction." Would say to me that we should be in the business of helping to teach and show children, by example what is and what isn't acceptable.) While the SE does need to be informed, I don't see any mention of what he might or could do. Most often it seems to be that the BSA is happy to leave this up to the SE. The SE should have the resources and people to find out the what, where, when, who and all that good stuff and be able to make a determination. It is also worth remembering that the BSA doesn't "Own" the Unit. One Chartering Organization might be happy to take on this Lad and could help maybe help him. The Vision Statement states: The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law. A lot might depend on how you read the words "eligible youth"? In the real world. About 18 months back we had a case where a Sea Scout was woken up by another Sea Scout (Both males) who was touching him in a very inappropriate way. In fact he was trying to perform a sex act. The Ship's Management Committee met and the Lad was removed from the Ship. The Scout Executive was informed. Both Sea Scouts were also members of the same Boy Scout Troop. The Scoutmaster was informed. The Troop Committee also decided it would be best if the Lad was removed from the Troop. (It was later found out that he had tried to do this sort of thing with other younger Scouts) This past January the SM called me and said that the Lad wanted to rejoin the Troop, he was going to be 18 in May and wanted to complete his Eagle Scout rank!! The SM called me as he thought I knew about these things , not as Skipper of the Sea Scout Ship. By this time we had a new SE and a new DE. I called the new SE, who knew nothing about what had happened. He said it was up to the Troops Committee if they wanted to allow him to rejoin or not. I explained this to the SM. The Committee Chair then called me!! I again explained it was a committee decision. She was a little worried as the father of this Lad was serving as a ASM for the Troop. The Troop is chartered by our local Roman Catholic Church, I suggested that she call the Parish Priest and explain what was happening. Which she did. As you can imagine the PP really didn't want this Lad in a Troop chartered by the church. Many of us did feel and still feel that the Lads BSA membership should have been revoked and maybe flagged in some way. The Lad does turn 18 this month, but as things stand he could join another unit (Ship /Crew) as a youth member and maybe join a unit as some kind as Assistant Leader. This is very worrisome and does concern me. I'm all for us doing everything we can to help children and young people who maybe don't seem to fit the clean cut, angelic image of a Boy Scout. But it does seem that this Lad really does have a problem (There have been similar things at school.) Much as I hate to say it. We do need SE's who are going to stand up for what is right and not try to pass the buck. Eamonn.

"if you have followed the available training and regulations of the BSA as related to the activity." While this might seem to make very good sense!! I just can't say that I have ever read or seen it in any BSA publication or material. For a very long time I was paying through the nose for Liquor Liability Insurance. My premium did go down when I sent my servers to training's, but: 1/ The insurance would still have been in place if I hadn't sent them (Of course I wouldn't have got the discount!!) 2/ By sending the employees I had, the insurance company covered new employees who had not attended the Liquor Safe Serving Training. 3/ When I first bought my first restaurant,I did protect myself, by incorporating the business and the company that owned the buildings. After years of paying the insurance company, some local tavern owners came up with the bright idea that we could all put X amount of money in an account and become self-insured. Nothing came of it, so the company that owned the Liquor License borrowed the money from the company that owned the buildings to become self-insured. I did keep sending my people to be trained, mainly because I thought it was a good idea and also I didn't want some drunk getting his hands on my hard earned money!! Again I didn't have to send them, they had no real "Need" to attend, the choice was mine. Eamonn.

"Doing nothing is the same as condoning the activity." I'm not sure I agree with this. There have been lots of times when I have witnessed (Seen with my own eyes) Things that I know are not right. As a District Commissioner I was invited to attend unit activities where it was clear that some rule /guideline was not being followed or that the Methods for that particular section were not being used. Many times I seen myself as a guest of that unit and I choose not to do anything at that time. Sometimes I did do something at a later time!! Which I suppose does amount to "Doing Something". But very often what I did might not have been seen to address what I had witnessed. For example I might have had a word with the R/T Commissioner to find a way of bringing or covering that area at a R/T meeting. Of course some "Sins" are bigger than others and do need to be dealt with at that time and place. Some can be left on the back burner until the right time, place and opportunity presents itself. Sometimes even if I personally don't like what I witness and am aware that it isn't what should be done, I'm careful to pick my battles. This in no way means that I condone it. Maybe it just means I'm being lazy? Very often a lot of "Wrong Doings" only come to light when people are at odds and seem to be out to get each other. We had this happen in the District. A very weak Troop had a not so wonderful SM. The local Pack which for a long time had also been weak was turned around by having a husband and wife team come on board. When the time came for the son of the Cubscouters to cross over, Dad the CM, decided that he'd move to the Troop. The local Volunteer Fireman's club who chartered the Troop was happy with this, so he became the ASM. The SM had served as SM for a very long time. He had been a founding member of the local Volunteer Fire company and was highly respected in the community. One reason why he wasn't such a wonderful SM was due to the fact that he was spread a little too thin, trying to do too much. It soon became very clear that the SM and the new ASM were like oil and water, they just were unable to get along and work together. Things got so out of hand that at times it seemed that there were two Troops meeting at the same time in the same place. The Lads who had crossed over with the new ASM and the Lads who had been there before he arrived. Soon all sorts of accusations of wrong doings were flying. One of these was that the SM was after the Scouts had all left and gone home going up-stairs to the social club in uniform and having a couple of beers. Of course I would never condone such a thing. But it seems that he had been doing this for a very long time. The President of the Fire Company was one of his close pals and the units Executive Officer. When I found out it was happening, I did discuss it with the other members of the Key 3 and we decided not to take any action. This by no means in any way meant that we thought what he was doing was right. After a little while the SM did step aside, the ASM is the SM and he doesn't visit the social club after the meetings. Eamonn.

I know I should spin off!! But!! If money or the ability to donate money to a Council is the reason for having an Executive Board? I can't help thinking that we have lost some if not most of the values we keep harping on about. This thread was spun off from one about the Silver Beaver and service to youth. I really don't have any problem recognizing people who "Bring Home The Bacon". As District Chair. I nominated our Community FOS Chairman for the District Award of Merit. (I didn't sit on the selection committee. -But he did get the recognition, which I felt was deserved.) I would not have any problem seeing someone like him serve on a Council Executive Board. I feel that he could provide the Board with a wonderful insight to how a community FOS campaign, should be run and how it should work. My feeling is that everyone needs to bring something to "The Table". I was upset when the Board "Stole" a School District Superintendent from "My" District Committee. But again I can see that he had the potential to help the Board. (As it happened he attended one meeting where the Council President made a speech about the "Suggested level of giving" for Board members and he never returned.) This "Suggested Level" in the Council I serve is not very high. I'm not on the Board but when I left it was $100.00 a month. This entitled Board members to attend the Council Fund raising dinner, in fact they received a ticket for every $150.00 they donated, the real cost of the dinner was about $50.00 a plate. When it became clear that the Council was in dire financial need, I was a Board Member. I came up with the wonderful idea that every Board Member who could afford it donate $5,000 on top of the $1,200.00 and that each and every member donate at least an extra $1,000.00. The end result was two people donated at the $5,000 level. No one donated the extra $1,000. I know who the two people who gave the extra $5k are -One got heck from his wife!! Placing the management of a Council in the hands of a group of people whose only real claim to fame is that they might be willing to donate twenty-five dollars a week to the Council? Just seems wrong. Many of the most knowledgeable and talented people who could do great service to a Council can't for one reason or another donate large sums of money. I would hope that a real understanding of Scouting and the needs of a Council would come before the ability to donate cash when it comes time to select a Board Member. Not every Board member has to wear shorts and wear socks with red tops. But I would hope that when it's time to select people to serve on the Board of a corporation which employs people, oversees a budget of well over one million dollars and provides help in facilitating program opportunities for several thousand youth members, we select the very best people available not base our selection on twenty-five bucks a week. Eamonn.

"What is the purpose of this thread? " I can't help but wonder what the purpose of any thread is? I don't remember seeing any rule that says threads have to have a purpose. I'm kinda guessing that I might have made it on to the top five list. I really couldn't care less one way or the other. If everyone was in some way afraid of being the the person with the last word? No one would ever start a thread. There are foods that I don't like (Hard boiled eggs, Peanut-Butter and Brussels Sprouts) I really dislike them, so I choose to not have anything to do with them. There have been forum members who for one reason or another I have chose not to have anything to do with. I'm OK with not always providing someone with a reply. (As has happened already in this thread) I can ignore statements and other forum members. I for one don't really give a hoot if some people choose to by-pass my wise words of wisdom or ignore me completely. I don't have a PhD in Scouting, in fact my only real qualifications are that I have been around for a while, there is a chance that for all this time I might have or could be doing things all wrong? I like to think that I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm willing to share it with others; what others do with it? Is beyond my control. Some forum members do provide "The Book Answer". I'm happy that they do. Sometimes even the "Book Answer" can be a matter of interpretation, which can be discussed. A lot of times when someone interprets or sees things in a different way or light than maybe I have? I'm left thinking: 1/ Are they really right? 2/ How come I have been wrong for so long? 3/ Are they just looking for loop holes or trying to pick holes?. What happens next is entirely up to me. 1/ I suppose I could be nasty and inform them that I'm right and not only are they wrong, but they are a twit for being wrong. 2/ I could with great respect explain why I see things differently than they do. 3/I can opt to ignore it all. Many of us have our own little Pet Peeves. Subjects that for some reason put us on our own high horse. I'm not happy with Troop Rules and By-laws. However I do see how some unit leaders might want to use them. At the same time I might be thinking that having a long list of these rules to my mind shows a lack of understanding of the Scout Oath and Law? Every now and then I'm guilty of letting loose and saying what I really feel. Most times (I hope!!) I'm happy to let someone else explain this to them. If no one does? I'm OK with not going there. For the record. There are times when some of us do come on "A bit strong" Or maybe "Over the top". This is a matter of style. Bob White does seem to get accused of this a lot! I have met "Bob White". I spent some time with him at the last National Jamboree. He is really a very nice fellow, he was doing an outstanding job at the Jamboree. The area he was in did have an element of danger and risk involved. He was doing a great job of keeping the several hundred Scouts in that area safe, he did so in a friendly way, which was a wonderful example of true leadership to the youth and adults in that area. No he didn't have any rule books hidden on his person (At least from what I could see!!) He didn't put anyone down!! I came away thinking, what a nice guy he was. I would feel it would be a privilege, if I ever had the opportunity to work along side of him. We both have very different styles of talking (He lacks the accent!!) I kinda think we have different ways of getting to where we hope to go, but I'm sure at the end of the day we are both heading in the same direction and working toward the same goal. This will be my last word in this thread. Eamonn.

Seems to me that I'm seeing a lot of legal terms being used, which I have to admit I have never seen in any of the BSA Training Syllabus. I'm not an expert on insurance. I'm not a lawyer. I didn't stay at a motel last night, not even the one that makes you smart or clever. So please take (or leave) what follows with that in mind. When I look at the on line G2SS I read: "Scouting $$$ Pay Liability Claims The BSA general liability program is not just insurance. In fact, insurance plays a very small part. Our greatest efforts are spent on safety and injury prevention. BSA self-funds the first million dollars of each liability claim. This means that almost all money spent on a liability claim is Scouting money, not insurance money. Accident and sickness insurance pays regardless of fault as long as the accident occurred during an official Scouting activity and the unit or council has purchased the coverage. I don't see any mention of Training. Some years back I remember reading an article in a magazine, I think it was US News and World Report, I'm not certain. It was about Liability, it had a story in the article about a little girl who went into her next door neighbors back yard when they were not home and used the swing set that they had. She fell off and damaged her leg which resulted in her having a permanent limp. Her family found a lawyer who sued the manufacturer of the swing set, Sears who sold the swing set and the family that owed the swing set. I don't know or remember what the final outcome was. My point is that we are never immune from being taken to court and someone suing us -Even if we are not home!! I do think that the volunteer who made the "BSA insurance does not cover a troop on an outing unless at least one leader on the trip is officially trained according to BSA specs." statement,was wrong. But I also think if someone is trained and does what they are supposed to do they are not as lightly to get sued. Being as the BSA states: "Accident and sickness insurance pays regardless of fault as long as the accident occurred during an official Scouting activity and the unit or council has purchased the coverage" And I know that the Council I serve does have that insurance, I'm left asking myself "What's left?" And "Who would they go after?" I don't know how many volunteers do get sued? I have only heard of one from our Council in 25 years and "They" (The lawyers) didn't go after the volunteer they went after the Council. The Council did end up paying the legal fees to the firm that the National Office said was to represent the Council. The case was settled by the plaintiffs accepting an undisclosed amount of money which was decided out of court. The person who was at fault was at fault big time and ended up in jail, but he didn't have to pay any of the money that the plaintiff's received. I really think that there are so many myths and legends about this issue: Travel in uniform (Not true) Failing to file paperwork on time (Not true) The list goes on and it seems people are happy to add more to it each and everyday. I'm sure that no one in their right mind ever wants to see any child hurt or harmed. I would hope that as Scouter's we do our best to follow all laws, not just because it's the law but because we want to set a wonderful example to the children and youth members we take care of. When we do all this and Be Prepared, thinking ahead and asking the "What if?" questions, not only do we do a better job of keeping the children safe, we also remove the liability. But maybe OGE is on the money, I'm just unsure what questions you might want to ask? Eamonn.

I really don't care who has the last word. I enjoy the exchange of ideas. (Most of the time!!) Very often the views of others do make me think about where I stand on on something and at times I do rethink where I was coming from. Sometimes I just think that I'm right!! Most times I'm happy to agree to disagree. This lack of agreement just means that we don't agree, it in no makes makes me better than the person I agree or disagree with or makes them into a bad person or bad Scouter. I hate when a thread is closed, even though I have closed a couple. In some ways a closed thread seems to me to say that we are not discussing but have gone into the realm of argument or maybe even "One-up-man-ship (is there such a word?) While I do enjoy being a forum member. I'm not sure that the forum has any real power or does really effect the way people go about doing what they do. Threads about uniform for example, do seem to take up a lot of space. But I kinda think that the Troop that is happy to go with just the uniform shirt is going to remain happy just going with the uniform shirt, no matter what is posted in this forum. At times we do tend to go so far out there (Threads about Native American, handicapped, Muslim Scouts not wearing uniforms to Eagle Scout BOR'S -joke!!) That it is almost funny. I'm happy that we have forum members like FScouter and Bob White who do seem to have all the reference books close to hand. I enjoy reading Eaglescoutdad? (Barry) and his take on things. I have a hard time understanding what the heck one member is saying thanks in part to me being from where I'm from and him not writing in the Queens English, but I can get passed that. packsaddle and OGE do tend to make me smile. Lisabob reminds me of myself about ten or fifteen years back. Sure there are times when I rise to the bait. But I'm happy to leave the last word to the person who posts last. Eamonn.

BrentAllen When you post: "I certainly don't know everyone on our Executive Board, but those I do know have been pretty active in their units." It would seem to me, that maybe the Executive Board in the Council you serve is different than the Board that serves the Council I serve. I'm in no way against anyone spending their hard earned cash by donating it to Scouting. My point is that by just recruiting a group of people who well meaning as they might be? Don't know diddly about what Scouting is about and really don't have the resources to do very more than donate at a set level we allow Councils to be run by a very small group (An Executive Committee) which in my opinion is not serving or meeting the needs of the Units. To my way of thinking the only reason to have a Council is to serve the needs of the Units. I have served on our Area Committee, the meetings are not the most interesting meetings I have ever attended, but it seemed to me that everyone that sat on that Committee had a real understanding of what Scouting was and is about. I in no way am trying to say that all Board members have no idea what is happening. But a Board with 80 or so members, where the majority have had no prior contact or knowledge of Scouting?? Would seem to me to be there for some reason other than serving the needs of the units. Of course some will take the next step, some will take the training's that are offered. But a lot will be gone in a few years. Eamonn.

"You seem to assume or at least suggest that the role and purpose of the executive board is the same as the role and purpose of the volunteer unit leader?" Not sure if that was aimed at me or not? But please believe me when I say that I do know what roles people do play in Scouting. I'm not in total agreement with the statement: "Does the executive board tell units what they must do in their unit meetings or where they must go for activities? No Do they plan district or council events for units? No." I'm not going to split hairs. I kinda think we all would agree that the delivery of the program does lie with the unit. But... (Hey you knew it was coming!!) Executive Boards do have a say in how the money a Council has is spent. This can and does in a number of ways effect the programs that a Unit can offer and the quality of the program that a unit can be involved in. The Council I serve does not make a Training a budget line item. With more and more expensive equipment needed to present the BSA Training's, to say that this has no real outcome? Is not true. The Vice Presidents in charge of Program, Membership do need to provide leadership and communicate the Plans and goals of the Council, in fact without the Board making plans and providing leadership with open lines of communication. Nothing gets done. I would say that people who do serve doing specific jobs which do result in things that effect the unit do need some knowledge of what the needs of the units are. I'm not saying that each and every Board member needs to have an extensive knowledge of Scouting. Eamonn.

Man oh man!! I'm so sick and fed up with hearing about "potential liability" I could scream!! I'm sorry!! First off I'm sure that you knowing and not doing anything does not in any way open the door to making you responsible for anything!! Next what you decide to do is up to you! Look at your options. As I see it. - Remembering of course that I don't know what it is they are doing or not doing and I don't know the people involved. 1/ Do nothing? Depending on what "Rule"?? is being broken or not followed. This is always an option. 2/ The action I think I'd take!! Is find the right time and place to talk with the person in charge and in as kind and in as nice a way as you can talk with him /her /them about it. Once you have had a word with whoever, what they do next? Could? Might? Determine what you do next. For example we in the Council do have a Crew that has shooting as their area of interest. A lot of the members do go Paint Balling. They do so as a group of youths who enjoy paint balling not as a Venturing unit. This being the case the best thing to do is to have a word with the adults and make sure they are aware of what the guidelines are. 3/ Follow the chain of command. Talk with whoever it is you report to and make them aware of what is going on. If you opt for this? I would suggest that having passed the buck (Observe and report) you leave it well alone. It's not your baby!! 4/If it really is something which is lightly to put someone in harms way? Call the COR inform him /her. But I'd be happy to leave this to the Assistant District Commissioner or the District Commissioner. 5/ If you are there (On the spot) and see something which is really unsafe. You do have to tell the adult or person in charge that they should stop this and stop it now!! I do kinda think more details are needed before I would offer a real opinion about what needs to be done. Commissioners are the unit friends and need to act in as friendly a manner as they can. If this is something of little or no consequence? You might be seen as some sort of a busy body? Maybe the best thing might be if you could help recruit a Unit Commissioner for this unit? Eamonn.

In the past I have supported and I still support recognition of non-youth leading adults. Having said that. I do at times worry that too many of the people who serve on our (At least this is the case in the Council I serve.) Council Executive Boards, don't know enough about what happens in the field (Our Packs, Troops and Crews)to be able to do a worth while job. Over the past ten or so years I have seen our Council Executive Board become a haven for hat seems to me, people who are building their resumes. I have seen the number of people on the Board grow, making the Board so big that it is almost unmanageable. Due to poor attendance monthly meetings became bi-monthly meetings, which did little or nothing to improve attendance. More and more decisions have been left in the hands of a few people. At this time I can't remember what title they have given the meeting they attend? But it is made up of people who serve as Vice Presidents along with the Council Key 3. This happy little band seems to have all the power. They do of course report what they have done and what decisions they make to the full Executive Board, who because of their lack of any real knowledge do of course seem happy to approve and go along with them. I'm not sure what the reason for having an over-sized Executive Board is? I hate to say it but,there have been times when I have thought that maybe the only reason was that it was an easy way of bringing in a few extra bucks. The expectation is that all members of the Board will donate at a expected level and the more members the more cash? A few years back our Board had the bright idea of selling a Camp that the Council owns. I was on the Board at that time and wasn't for the idea. Needles to say I of course thought I was right!! In the end thanks to a few "Real Youth Serving" adults the Board did decide not to sell the camp (Well they did sell it, but it was sold to the Council Endowment? I wasn't on the Board when this was done and have no idea what the thinking behind it is /was?). I remember sitting at the Board meeting, which was well attended and asking the 50 + people who were there, how many had ever seen or been to the camp that they were thinking about selling? Less than ten Board members had ever been to the camp!! At present we have a Council Vice President for Membership. I do like the Lady, she is a lovely person. She is a local attorney. Sadly she has no idea what the heck she is doing and really doesn't have the time to find out what needs to be done. The Council Membership Committee hasn't met in over 3 years. There is no Membership plan in place. Which makes supporting the plans and goals of the council kinda hard! Of course when it comes time to give a membership report to the Council Executive Board, she is able to read the report which is provided by the Scout Executive. Years back the business people who served on local Boards were local business owners. People who owned and operated business in the community, seems to me that as we move toward having more and more multi-national companies, the people who sit on boards like Council Executive Boards lack having any real community roots. They are very nice people who are doing their best to climb the corporate ladder. They know from the get go that they are just passing through and sitting on a board, networking with other ladder climbers at the odd meeting or golf outing is good for where they want to go. I'm saddened when I see the Agendas for our Council Executive Board Meetings, they seem to not be about what we are trying to do or about how we are trying to get them done! I do think that the time has come when we the volunteers start pushing our COR's to stand up and represent us, when it comes to Council Executive Board elections. Having nice people is all well and good, but having nice people who know what they are doing, would be a lot better. Eamonn.

Oh dear a Vegan coyote!! Right now I'm so fed up (Sorry!) With Vegan diets and Vegetarian diets I could spit up my soy milk. We were supposed to have this up and running several months back. But someone is very far behind with it all!! I can't name names! Ea.

Herms As I said I don't know who penned it!! I'm guessing not BP or William Hillcour !! I'm sorry it just came over me!! I of course would be proud and honored if you would use it. A very dear friend of mine who worked for Scouting UK as the Camp Warden for Walton Firs Scout Camp served in Royal Navy on Subs as a signal officer. I don't know many Signal Officers, but this guy was nuts about radios!! He also played a big part in my love of pioneering. He was at one time stationed on Ascension Island, who at that time was under a Lieutenant General. Bill Cook (My pal) and a few other hams, sheer lashed a 180 pole and hung (or what-ever you do?) their antenna on it. It wasn't up very long till they received a letter from the Lieutenant General, which stated "It is forbidden to have unsightly erections on Ascension Island!"! Thank you so very much for your service. 27 years!! Wow!! My hope is that your retirement is long and you get to do all the things that you want to do! (And don't get caught doing them!!) Eamonn.

"Eammon, if your friend staffed WB21C in 2005," I'm sorry now I read what I said!! No he was the Jamboree ASM 1, when I was SM IN 2005. Ea.

OK, I know I'm a lazy toad!! Most times when I don't know who said what, I tend to not say who said it. Yes call me "A dirty rat" But did James Cagney ever say it? I don't really know? How many of the greatest speeches ever made are attributed to the person who made the speech, not the guy who wrote the words? But I do think if we are going to say who said what? We do need to get it right. I don't want to put the old fellow down, but while BP did a fair job with his writings, I have to say after hearing a few of his speeches he wasn't the worlds greatest orators!! I enjoy the speeches that our boy Winston Churchill over BP any-day!! Eamonn

packsaddle As I drove to work today, I seen the deer peacefully grazing. Abbey Road was playing on the stereo. As I viewed these animals all I could think of was "Deer are rats with antlers."!! The Beatles were singing "She came in through the bathroom window"!! I wasn't at work very long when a inmate who is serving life came into my office and said that he felt that everyone is out to get him. The guy is a bit of a nut, but I kinda put a lot of that down to having served 27 years in jail. I'm a little nuts after 8 hours!! I did talk with him and did my best to counsel him, but have to admit to in many ways dismissing him. Later in the day he ran into the Captain's office and said he felt that someone was going to kill him!! He is now in an area reserved for inmates with psychiatric problems. As I drove home I couldn't help but think about "Deer are rats with antlers." The deer do have people who are out to get them!! But they just don't know it or if they do? They are clever enough to have made a home where there is no hunting. Ea.

I think that maybe what we have here is a failure to communicate. (Yes I know it's cool!!) Bob White (I think? And I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong.) Is talking about the Wood Badge Course (The syllabus / presentations and all that good stuff. John-in-KC (Who will also correct me if I'm wrong) Is referring to the Wood Badge experience. One of the guys who served on Staff for NE-IV-153 is a very talented canoeist, he served as a Troop Guide. Thanks to Wood Badge the participants in the Patrol he served have used his skills and services to take the youth they serve out on the water. Of course Wood Badge doesn't include canoeing in "The Course", but due to them being where they were and him also being there?? It happened. It might not ever happen again? I don't know. The fellow I had serve as SPL. A truly wonderful fellow is a Lutheran Minister. I found out a lot about Lutherans. Again this was part of the experience for me at that time and place. On the other hand I know that I use (Apply) a lot of the Wood Badge Skills (Stuff from the syllabus.) In my everyday workings with other people. I now because of the course do really work harder at listening and communicating, I'm far more aware of where we are with Team Development, I do use the steps in problem solving. I could go on. I think myself very lucky in having copies of the syllabus which I do at times refer too. I have to go out for a while. Maybe after I have some time and I have got the little gray cells working, I'll start a thread ; something along the lines of "Which Wood Badge Skills could be use to help with recruiting" Eamonn.

I'm not happy that Margaret got upset. But as we see in this thread. I never in a million years would have thought about anyone putting their trousers on after their shoes or boots. Gunny2862 (In the nicest way!!) has shown me that I was not right. Maybe the answer to prevent things like what happened to Margaret might be an area where questions can be asked but only answered with a link to the "Official" ?? answer. When I read "This is a private community provided by SCOUTER Network and reserved for Scouting related discussions." I don't really think of "Us" being a board for Q & A. It is a forum and as we have seen many times Threads do at times take on a life of their own. I'm not sure if we (ME?) do have a responsibility to check the members profile? Maybe it's the responsibility of the person posting to read that this is "a private community provided by SCOUTER Network and reserved for Scouting related discussions. Could it be that Margaret didn't ask the question in the right place? I kinda think many of us can guess what sort of response we are lightly to get from different Forum Members when we post something? (I not brave enough to say what from who!! -That would be really sticking my neck out.) While most of us, most of the time are willing to take plenty of no notice! Every now and then we do rise to the bait and what follows isn't a discussion. Maybe more along the lines of an argument? In the years that I have been a forum member I have only met a couple of other forum members. I like to think that given the right time and place I'd be happy to allow just about any of them buy me an adult beverage! I really don't have an axe to grind with anyone. OK, so maybe over the years there have been people that I have allowed to get up my nose! But I see the fault there as being mine. Back home in the Dark Ages when I was a Scout Leader (SM). The fifth point of the Scout Law was: A Scout is a brother to all Scouts. (It was of course changed when Scouting in the UK went co-ed.) I do have a real home-grown brother, who is four years older than little old me. As kids we used to fight like cats and dogs. When I first seen this fifth point I remember thinking how stupid it was! Today we are as different as can be. -He is very right wing nd I'm not! But there isn't anything in the world that I wouldn't do for him or he for me. We know that when it comes to politics, we are never going to agree. I know that he just can't help being wrong!! So most of the time we just don't go there. Eamonn.

I know I have way too much time on my hands when I find myself thinking about things that really don't matter. Sad thing is that me being me? I tend to do it a lot. The other day I was silly enough to spend some time thinking about the best way to get dressed in the morning. I as a rule put my underwear on first. I was OK with that. Next comes my T-shirt. - That seemed like a good idea. I did wonder if maybe my socks should come next but decided against it. Next for work we have to wear an armored vest, so that came on next. I'm still not sure when the socks should come? But opt for the shirt, which needs to have a name plate put on. I rethink when the name plate should be put on. As the shirts and the T-shirts are hung in the same place it makes more sense to take them both out at the same time, place the name plate on then put the T-shirt on then the vest and then the shirt (With name plate fixed firmly in place.) This makes me think about the socks and underwear. The sock drawer is the drawer below the underwear drawer, I tend to grab the socks and the underwear at the same time. Maybe the socks should come next? I decide against it. Next comes the pants. Then the belt, the belt has to have pouch and a key carrier added, the pouch which contains two pair of latex gloves and a plastic thingy for mouth to mouth goes on first and the key carrier goes on just before the belt goes through the last belt loop, next comes at long last the socks, I'm not sure why but normally the right sock first -I don't think it matters which sock goes on first. Next comes the shoes, again the right shoe first. The big question then is when to tie the shoes? Is it better to wait until both shoes are on or put one shoe on, tie it and then work on the other shoe? I have opted for putting both shoes on and then tyeing them -Right shoe first this tends to take less toil on my back. I'm sure that there are other ways of getting dressed and I'm sure that some people will think that the socks should come after the underwear. But for now this is what works for me. I'm almost sure that no matter how we go about it? Chances are that when we are done we will all leave our homes dressed. Now and then something will go wrong and we might end up with odd socks or maybe a T-shirt on back to front. I'm also fairly sure that no one is going to try and put the shoes on before the pants, as this would make putting the pants on really difficult. I think this forum provides us a great opportunity to look at different ways of doing things. Some things are right just because that's the way things are (Not putting the shoes on before the pants?) Some things might not apply to you (Wearing a armored vest.) Some things are of little or no consequence. (Which shoe or which sock comes first?). We are of course all able and welcome to air our views. I for one am open to look at different ways of doing things. I'm not willing to be put down because I might do things in a slightly different way than maybe you do them. Most times I'm happy that we all in our own way do get done what needs to get done. But then again maybe I just have too much time on my hands. Eamonn

Someone was kind enough to provide me with a link to the 2010 Council Jamboree Guide. I really do feel that if this was going to be a requirement that the word needed to have been put out before now. (To my knowledge this guide has only just been released?) I know the SM that has been selected for one of our Troops completed the old course back in 1999 (I was on Staff) He was my ASM 1, back in 2005. He is the SM of a very active Troop in our District (One of th best in the District) He is married and has kids. He worked for a company that has down-sized and now works for a small company, where he is earning less money and is the low man on the totem pole. With very little vacation time. Expecting someone who is Wood Badge Trained to go back and take the course again, spend the money again, give up the time again? With so little notice is just unfair. This year he has made plans for his summer, both with the Troop and his family. In 2010 the Jamboree will use up all of his vacation time, so that only leaves 2009. This to my mind is just not very fair. RE: "I wonder if someone who took the previous WB, but staffed 21CWB would be eligible." I really don't know. But my thinking is that if you have staffed the 21st Century Course and been through the development you should know more about the course than most of the participants. Of course now there is a requirement that you need to have taken the new course before you can be a staff member. I'm all for that. The first 21st Century course I staffed was staffed by "Old Course Staffers!!" many of whom just didn't get it. Maybe National thinks that we have a bigger turn over of Scouter's than we have? Who knows what the thinking is? But to my mind not recognizing the old course is a slap in the face to all the people who took it and not allowing more time (Telling everyone what the requirement is, in a timely manner) is just plain wrong. (End of rant!) Eamonn.

"Not only did the previous Wood Badge not deal with recruitment neither does the current version. Some recruitment is covered in basic training." I'll agree that as far as I can remember (Hey I'm losing little gray cells all the time!) That in the old course there never was a session on Recruitment. But.. Even in my now advanced years, I clearly remember thinking that if one more person told me to "Check Your Resources !" I was going to give him a thump!! I remember someone taking the time to explain what Resources were, along with some ideas where they might be found. A big part of any training is milking ideas from the people at the training. Even at the 21st Century course at meal times the staff eat their meals with the participants. (Least-ways they did when I was CD!) This was done by design to help facilitate this type of discussion. A lot of the Tickets I have seen from both courses have had something to do with recruitment. But just about every Ticket I have ever wrote has at sometime in some way been run up the flag pole with the other Patrol members and we have jawed about it before taking it to be approved, where it was once again looked at and maybe given a little tweak. Back in 2000 I paid to attend the Delivering Commissioner Service Conference at PTC. I drove to Philmont. Had a wonderful time and learned a lot. The guys leading the presentation were from a Council 100 or so miles down the road. I kept in contact with them and learned as much from them once I got home as I did while I was at Philmont. Each and every person I meet I now see as being a resource. A Training type environment especially Wood Badge does tend to help/make people open up and become more willing to share their ideas and how they do things. We do learn a lot from each other if we are willing to be open to ideas that might not always be in line with our own. Heck I've learned a lot from just being in this forum!! No course is ever going to be able to cover each and every situation and topic. The 21st Century Course isn't a bad course. A lot of the skills /tools do help us look at what we are doing and where we want to go. I feel sure that if our friend from the other thread were to sit down and think about his Vision and his Mission and then write his own Ticket (list of SMART goals) He would soon be on his way to fixing the problem that he now faces. Of course he might need to use a lot of the stuff that is in the course, which if he hasn't taken it? Might be a problem. The answer is in the course!! It might just take some time to see it /find it! But even if he goes back and looks at the 11 Leadership Skills and the material from the pre-21st Century Course, I'm sure he will find something in there which could help. - No of course it's not listed under the heading "Recruitment" but many of the skills will help. Eamonn.

Seems to me that the age of the boys in a Troop plays a big part in what percentage of Scouts attend the meetings. The school districts in our area have Elementary, Junior High and High Schools. The little Lads who cross over are still in the elementary schools, which don't have a lot of after school activities, the Junior High doesn't either, but the High school seems to have something going on just about all the time. It is very easy for a Lad to get out of the habit of attending meetings. Having a personal relationship with the Scout and his family is important, paying a visit to his home and meeting the parents on their ground and getting to know them can be a big help. - At least that way when you call on the phone they know you!! Having a plan of what you are going to do when a Scout misses meetings will help ensure that no Scout falls through the cracks. Being aware that we are only ever as good as our last meeting and working toward ensuring that each and every meeting is time well spent, will make Scouts not want to miss meetings or events. Dealing with any conflicts that might be out there as quickly and as fairly as possible prevents them from becoming big issues, which at times do get in the way of a Scout attending. I also think it's important that at camp that Patrols camp as Patrols, no matter how many Patrol members turn up. Mixing Patrol members to make pretend Patrol is not using the Patrol method. This can of course backfire!! When a Patrol finds out that less than maybe half are attending the event, the half that were going might see it as a waste of their time? But once the Patrols know that they will be camping as a Patrol they tend to apply pressure on the other Patrol members to get them there!! Eamonn.

While I'm overjoyed to see anyone do anything that will bring in more Scouts/youth!! I really think that allangr1024 is to be commended for what he (She?) is doing. I do however agree with FScouter. Youth join an organization for the fellowship (Hanging out with their pals!) Fun and Adventure. Selling them "A Purpose"? I'm not so sure about. I'm not so sure that parents are "Sold" on Scouts and Scouting because it will in some way make their kid a better kid. I of course think that some kids do become better for having been in Scouting and there are lots of benefits. But talking as a parent. When my kid wanted to do something? I looked at the risk involved and how much it was going to cost me! When he wanted to be involved in sports or the school play I was happy to allow him to do so. Mainly because it was what he wanted to do. Sure he got something out of being in the school plays and being involved in sports, but the first thing was that it was something that he wanted to do. I know that at this time, I'm not happy with the way we market Scouting and I have a bit of a down on what seems to me to be too much empathize on the values. This stuff works well when we try and inspire members of th BSA to go out and do some recruiting. I really like the "We have to put the youth in Scouting before we can put the values of Scouting in the youth" But if I were a kid that would be lost on me! While the "A game with a purpose." might be good for training's I'm not so sure I'd use it for recruiting. Of course that's just the opinion of one! Eamonn.

I get to work very early in the day.Normally by about 0430. I really enjoy My time in the early morning and seem to get a lot more done without too many distractions. Of course my drive to work is not complicated by any sort of traffic or congestion at that time of the day. As a rule I'm in my own little world, driving along with the car stereo, which at times I'll admit I play maybe a little bit to loud. Once I turn off the road and enter the grounds of the State Correctional facility, I very often have to smile. The grounds are very well kept, inmates are employed to look after them. I see the jail, the fence and miles and miles of razor wire. At first this used to in some way scare me, but I have got used to it and in many ways am thankful for it being there. I'm not smiling at the fence or the wire, but at the deer on my side of the fence as I drive in. Of course there is no hunting near the jail and it's like these deer seem to know this. They just spend their time doing whatever it is deer do to pass the time. Many of the people I work with do hunt and have said how much they would like to harvest these animals. The other morning I was driving in on the state owned drive way. I was for once following the 15 MPH speed limit and out of no where a deer jumped out in front of me. I put the brakes on and managed to stop before any harm was done to me, my car or the deer. This became my "Story" of the day. I'm not sure how we got on to the subject of liability. But we did. Someone said that if I'd been hurt I wouldn't be covered by Workman's compensation or the Heart and Lung compensation that I really don't understand!! As I wasn't really at work! Someone said that as the State is aware that the Deer are there and do pose a danger I could if anything happened sue the State. Someone else said that my car insurance carrier would do what they thought best. Of course as nothing happened!! This was all just idle chatter (One reason to get to work early!!) I do enjoy seeing the deer, they do brighten up my morning. I'd hate to see them removed because someone, somewhere decided that them being there was some kind of a liability issue. Of course if something had happened that had left me permanently disabled? I might have a different take on all of this. I now drive up to the jail with my high beams on!! Liability is something that is always going to be out there!! I do think we need to use common sense to make things as safe and reduce as much risk as we can. But when we allow it to become the ruling factor of everything we do or don't do? I think we will have gone too far. (Just my 2 cents) Eamonn PS I think maybe the Deer liked the CD I was playing - 40 Licks by the Rolling Stones.

Someone e-mailed me saying that the Jamboree SM and 1st ASM are now required to have completed the 21st Century Wood Badge course. They asked if I knew if this was a fact? I don't know. Is it now a requirement? Eamonn.