Eamonn

Tom was kind enough to PM the meaning of BKM. Me thinks that Tom is going to be a great asset to the forum. His first posting and he taught me something. Needless to say he used the BKM Eamonn.

I do agree that we never set up a Scout or a patrol to fail. This puts the poor old Scoutmaster in a strange place. He trains the patrol leaders, he supports the patrol leaders. He knows that he along with the other adults are the "Safety Net". However he knows that Scouts learn to lead by leading. He knows that training is top of his list when it comes to Patrol Leaders and SPL's. He knows that the hard parts are the trust them and letting them lead. Too much support is interference. No support is wrong. Many, many years back when I was a Patrol leader. We went away for the weekend and forgot to bring the food. We had left on a Friday night and as luck would have it we were not that far from home. I did feel very silly and maybe a little ashamed of myself. I called my Dad and he did bring the food out to us. The next day one of the ASM's said that he knew that we hadn't put our food on the van. I thought then and think today that he was a twit. If he had seen that the food wasn't there he should have said something. Sure I learned a good lesson, but I think that the price was too high. I have as a SM seen Scouts make camp gadgets, with poor lashings. I knew that they wouldn't hold up to use. I seen my choices as leave it as is till it fell down or ask the patrol leader if he thought the lashings were good enough. I admit to asking the Patrol Leader. Nine times out of ten, the Patrol Leader would smile at me and tell me that everything was fine and then when he thought that I wasn't looking he would get the lashings redone. I being a good sport would let it pass. Eamonn

We seem to be in wide screen. I really think that us calling each other names is not going to get us to any place that we want to go. I have to admit to finding some of the adjectives that Merlyn has chosen to use as offensive.But I have heard and read a lot worse. I don't like the idea that any kid is signed up into the BSA without knowing that he has been signed up. Before everyone bites my head off telling me that it can't happen. I do know of cases where it has happened. I hope now that the 2% growth has been done away with that we will see it happening a lot less. The high school my son attends has a Fly and Tie club. Our Council Cub Scout camp is close to spot that is good for fly fishing and the Tie and Fly club does rent the buildings for weekends to fish. Some of the club members are Boy Scouts, they found out it would be cheaper to become a Venture Crew. As Scout units pay a lower rent. The teacher who looks after the club is willing to be the Advisor, a local Fishing Club is prepared to be the chartering organization. As yet we as a District have not started this as a new unit. If and when they start, they will meet when they always met and will use the school for most of their indoor meetings. I have no idea if the teacher is paid or not paid for School "Club Time?" As far as I know kids that want to join the Tie and Fly club and do not want to join the club will still be welcome. The club members that do join the crew will if they want be able to enjoy all the privileges that are open to all Venturers. I have no idea what a Tie and Fly club does when they are not fishing, I guess they tie new flies? I have no idea how the Crew if it ever comes into being will run their meetings. This will be in the hands of the Crew members, under the watchful eye of the adults. This idea came from the kids and seems to me to be a win win situation. I am interested to see how Merlyn sees this? Eamonn

What is a bkm? Hi Tom, Welcome to the forum. It is great news that there will soon be another pack and that the adventure will soon be reaching a new set of little fellows. What position do you hold? If you can swing it. Having all the adults going to training before you start or recruit any little fellows is a great idea. That why everyone can avoid a lot of headaches. I don't know how new or how long you have been around Scouting? I feel sure if you call the Service Center they will be able to give you the number of the person who is in charge of new units in your district/ area. It might be a member of the Membership Committee or the District Executive. At this time of the year there might be a "Push" to get new units in to the Service Center. Don't let anyone rush you. Take the time to dot the i's and cross the t's. Read the material, ask lots of questions. Attend the training's. Eamonn

As I no longer have a Troop or Pack Committee to fall back on all costs and expenses come out of my pocket. At times some of these costs are just way out of line. $27.00 for breakfast? I can't eat $27.00 worth of food at breakfast.It seems that all of our Area meetings are as far away from where I live as is possible, so there are Hotel or motel costs on top of everything else. I do have the odd moan and groan. Still I a lucky in that I can afford it and Her That Must Be Obeyed, is very understanding. I look at it from the view point that Scouting is my hobby. I don't hunt and thanks to a bad back no longer play golf. I have friends who hunt and sit on committees to do with Ducks and Turkeys. These guys really do spend a lot. One pal of mine was over the moon about a new club that he had just bought for $600.00!! In my Cub Scouting days we did have it that the pack would pay for all leader training. That was fine until we hosted a Wood Badge course in our Council and six people from the pack attended. Six at $200.00 was just too much at one time. I think that no one should be out of pocket for a Scouting activity. Gas should be a budget item and that sort of thing. I do think that leaders should pay their own way or at least pay the same as the Scouts. If I stay home I don't eat for free. Scouting is my hobby and my pass time. I enjoy doing things for people and thank the good Lord that I have been blessed to be able to afford it. I do keep very good records and am careful how I pay for things, normally by a company check made out to he BSA. All this stuff goes to my accountant and we meet three or four times a year to go over it all. Still there are times when I am out with a group of kids and I buy a round of ice cream and pay cash. I just enjoy doing it and cost or taxes don't matter. Sharing that time and being allowed to be part of their group is worth all the tea in china. Have you ever noticed that even the most unruly kid in the world can't act up with an ice cream cone in his hand. I love ice cream, Her That Must Be Obeyed used to get mad at me when OJ was a little fellow we would have it for breakfast. Eamonn

Yoda was a very old mouse. So it must be Mr. Miyagi. Still this makes me wonder if failure happens when you don't have the force with you? Still back to the thread. Do you agree that failing a Lad who has not met the requirements is not in any way hazing? Eamonn

Here we go again - Well maybe? I remember some time ago Merlyn, peed-ed me off and I asked him to go away. Sad to say yet again I didn't have right on my side. I do at times think Merlyn goes too far. I am trying to work out how the BSA issuing charters to government agencies is the fault of the BSA? To my very simple way of thinking: We (The BSA) have a program which we allow other groups to use if they acknowledge that they have the same values that we do. The values of the BSA are well known. We offer it and it is their choice if they want to take it or leave it. I have a good friend who owns our local supermarket. He knows that my Son is allergic to eggs. Eggs make him very sick. Does my friend do wrong by still selling eggs? I do try to see where Merlyn is coming from. I don't agree with some of his views. But I do want to thank him for trying to explain them. I also admire him for seeing that the Boy Scouts were being discriminated against in this case and for posting it. Thank you. Eamonn.

TwocubDad, I don't agree with what you are doing. Still put that aside for a minute. With regard o the pack and the District. You post that you think that the district could help the unit that you serve by starting new units in your area. What could the district do or have done to prevent your pack from having such large dens? How would you feel if one of "Dem dare District fellas" came along and said NO have to go with the ideal den size? Eamonn

We have two dogs, both are pets. Some years back I went away for the weekend and Her That Must Be Obeyed, said that she heard someone trying to break in. She gave me three choices: Don't go away. Buy me a gun, or get me a guard dog. I opted for the dog and a security system. Joe the English Setter looked "Frisky" or at least that what Her That Must Be Obeyed, said. He is a totally useless guard dog. He doesn't bark, he sits and wags and hopes that everyone is as kind as the FedEx man, who has a pocket full of dog biscuits. When Her That Must Be Obeyed complains about the "Big Brave Guard Dog" I tell her to do it not so loud, as she will put his id out and disturb his karma. Lord knows that when dealing with Lads of Scout age, I am 200% against any form of hazing.I hope that I have never ever set a boy or a patrol up in order that he or they will fail. I do however feel that there are times when boys fail and Patrols fail. While I sure as heck do not want to put his id out or cause unrepairable harm to his karma. There are times when he will fail. If we just sign off whatever the requirement was because he has tried and not met the requirement we are wrong. Take Second class swimming, the boy jumps in does try but fails to meet the requirements. Some kind hearted person thinks that it is unkind to fail him "After all he has tried, he has done his best." What happens when he goes to do the First Class swimming requirement? What about the patrol that is late for everything because they are not working as a team and miss out on doing an activity because they are still cooking when all the other patrols have cooked, cleaned up and are gone? Eamonn.

Last night we were supposed to have a Red Cross guy come and go over the Emergency Preparedness requirements with the Jamboree Troop. He canceled at the last minute, blaming the floods and other things that have hit our area of late. It was too late to contact everyone. So we went on with the meeting, changing it so that we covered the youth protection requirements, along with some of the Emergency Preparedness things that I thought that he might not cover when he does get to come. I truly enjoy and love working with real kids again. Our Jamboree bunch are a great bunch as cheeky and impudent a crowd as any I have ever had the joy to work for or with. I don't know how or why but for some reason a lot of the Dads who have sons attending the Jamboree were at the meeting in uniform. They were from different troops and I don't remember asking parents to attend in uniform. This was the first meeting that we'd had since the elections two weeks back. I was keen to see how the Patrols would and were coming together and how the new SPL would work out. We met in the church hall that one of the Jamboree ASM'S has as the meeting place for his troop. He had set the chairs out in neat rows, I of course moved them so that the boys were sitting in patrols. I have been in contact with the SPL via E-mail and he was set and ready for the opening. The meeting went well. The Scouts were wonderful, even with the YP movie and the follow up discussion. We broke the meeting up a little with a game that involved the patrols using the carrying methods outlined in the EP merit badge book. We got through it without dropping anyone and no injuries, which I always view as a plus!! The Dads sat their, all of them had been in Cubbing and had crossed over with their sons early this year. At the end of the meeting we had ice cream bars and stuff. I went over to talk to this row of ASM's. They were very complementary about the meeting. I had used an overhead projector and had managed to get every transparency upside down or inside out. The Scouts had of course got on my case, I deserved it. One Dad asked me if I ever got upset with the Scouts? I explained that this was something that I did for fun and got a lot of enjoyment from. Another Dad said that I had been a trainer when he went through Cub Scout training's and he thought that I had only been acting about having fun with the boys!! He wanted to know why I had moved all the chairs? And did I really think that this Patrol thing was really such a big deal? But the best one was the guy who told me that he thought that I only gave speeches he didn't know that I ever actually done anything. No wonder the kids are so cheeky. When I grow up I think I might want to be a Scoutmaster. Eamonn

I have given the "Game with a purpose" statement a good deal of thought. I do use it. I like the idea that Scouting being a game makes me think it is fun. I hope that like most good games that there are not a lot of hard to understand rules. I don't like the idea that Scouting being a game allows people to change the rules. If Scouting is a game it is the only game that I have ever played that never ends!! I still don't know how to keep score? Trying to keep the game ball and the purpose ball in the air at the same time is hard. Too many adults are using the purpose ball way too much. If this is a game it really does give meaning to "How you play the game." I like the idea that Scouting is an adventure. Scouting is a game that requires players to follow the rules when they aren't playing. And I agree with Bob. Eamonn.

Yes John I was directing my remarks in answer to your posting. The bottom line comes down too the "Did they know what they were doing wasn't right?" I think that the ideal size for a den is well known. Would the Unit Commissioner saying "Hey guys!! Theses Dens are just too big." Have made any difference? I very much doubt it. The correct way to go about selecting Leaders is out there. It does take a little time and does involve a bit more then standing up and asking for help. It is not a secret. The pack leadership has decided not to use what I see as a very useful tool. I don't know when Dens of more then eight are born? I do know that once they come into being splitting them into manageable, workable units seems to be something that is hard. The reason given is that there are no leaders. The tool is there for them to use. Isn't this the horse to water thing? Please take my word for it I do wish at times that I had something like the National Guard, made up of leaders who would at a drop of a hat leap into action. But I don't. Even if I did how would I know that they share the same values as the chartering organization. If I were one of this army of leaders I wouldn't want to serve a unit that was chartered by certain groups and I feel sure that once they heard my feelings they sure as heck would not want me!! Sad but true. There are packs in the District that I serve that have Cubmasters that have their own quirks, sending in a stranger just would not work. Leader selection has got to come from the unit. Eamonn.

I'm sorry BP the starting out rate for a DE is as stated. Eamonn.

Heck there is so much love in this thread I don't even see the need to add : Train them Trust them, let them lead. I don't see the need. Eamonn

Pizazz can add a lot to a training course. Done badly or over done it can act a real pain!! At one course I attended the Pizazz guy had arranged with the participants without telling the staff, that every time the word Scout was said they were to stand up. It made presenting impossible. Pizazz in my book should help break up the serious stuff with some light hearted fun. It should not get in the way of what is being done. Presenters can add Pizazz by having small prizes for people who participate in their presentation by answering questions correctly. Small bite sized candy bars are good. Please don't tell anyone that I said so but while a lot of the TDC is good the car race fails to add much to the course. If you can do something that fits in with the racing/ Nascar? theme it would help. Maybe having the room decorated with a racing theme. If you look in some Pow Wow books I feel sure that there are songs and stuff about cars that people have put in to do with Pinewood Derbies. If you can come up with a funny story about cars of different colors, that match the color of each teams car and when you say the color of the car each team has to make a car noise. Or you could make each car a farm truck that transports different farm animal and they make the noise of the animal. Good Luck. Eamonn

I'm still working on the District Leadership thing!! I don't think it is the unit commissioners job to sit down and explain the joys of Den Leadership to parents. If he or she is worth their salt he or she would have explained the "Selection Of Quality Leadership" to the pack Committee. He or she might have been kind enough to download the information from the web. Did the Cubmaster and the Pack Committee not know that they had a problem? I think that they did. The District Commissioner has the job of looking after the Commissioner Staff. If he/she is doing the job of being District Commissioner, he has selected a fine team of Commissioners. If things are going well all the Commissioners have no more then two units, three at the most. Every three Unit Commissioners report to the Assistant District Commissioner for that program area. In real life there are very often holes in this. People move or quit and others take on extra duties. The Assistant District Commissioners end up "filling in" and working as Unit Commissioners, while the District Commissioner is working at "Selecting Quality Commissioners". The District Membership Chairman, in most districts does seem to be more concerned about bringing new youth members into the program and under his watch trying to start new units. New Units tend to struggle for a while and need more help from the Commissioner Staff, new units also bring the problem of needing more Unit Commissioners. So someone fills the hole while the District Commissioner selects Quality Commissioners. As District Chairman, I could send a member of the Membership Committee to meet with the Pack Leaders. Still it is very lightly that the Membership person who does see the need for new Leaders does not know the people who the Pack Nominating Committee would want to select. So he would explain the process. Of course if the unit commissioner had done something sooner maybe this could have been avoided. But at the end of the day the pack leaders can and could have done whatever they opted to do. If the District Leadership had a crowd of people who wanted to be leaders we more than lightly would try and get these people trained and working with them try and find a chartering organization that they would fit into and start a new unit. That would of course mean that there would be a need for new commissioners. Maybe they could be new commissioners? All the material from National is available, but the District Leadership can only point out where it is. We can't make people use it or follow it. Redirect is a very strong term. We as District Leaders work for the Council in providing Training (Training is a Council responsibility) We offer the training but can't make people attend. We try our best to pass on the latest and newest ideas and ways of doing things or the methods that have over time proved to work. We try and keep up to date with the resources that are available and show where they can be obtained. Sad to say for some reason people choose to do their own thing. Sometimes their own thing works!! At least in some areas. If these people worked for me and I was their boss I could fire them and bring new people on that would follow the procedures that are in place. If they worked for me I could issue warnings that would or could result in their termination. If this was a game show I could say "Your Fired." Again sad to say the people that could say or do these things don't. Most COR's and Executive Officers are not doing this. I suppose that the District Leadership could start working with the COR's and Executive Officers and say to them that "If I were you I would get rid of that person." In real life while this has ans does happen it is very rare. In real life most times, the District Leadership can raise their eyebrows, shake their heads and at times ask "What program is that?" We always seem to come back to the question "Did they know what they were doing wasn't right?" If when we look at the answer and find that they didn't. We are to blame. We the District Leadership have not done our job. If we have not offered the training and not provided the place where the Pack Leadership could find the material or resources that are available we have not done our job. The pack leadership that is in place today was selected by the Chartered Organization. Each year the Chartering Organization approves the Leadership. All we can do is support the people that they have selected. Eamonn

Being a small Council we only have four DE's. Two work from the Service Center and two from a home office. Our District is served by one that works from home. As for what they do all day? This is dependent on what time of the year it is. Our guys and soon to be only one female do not work at camp or for the camp by maintaining property or equipment. Each and every month brings a new set of things that have to be done, things that have to be planned and people that have to be met. I don't like too many meetings. My feeling is that we lose volunteers by asking them to attend too many meetings where little or nothing is accomplished. This does create more work for the DE. At the District Meeting I ask the Committee Chairs to set 30 day goals. Things that they will do or get done within the next 30 days. These people are accountable to me. I expect them to meet the goal. We meet monthly, the DE is to contact the Chairs and see how they are coming along and report back to me. If need be working as a key3 we will do what we can to help the person meet the goal. We meet as a key3 weekly at times that are convenient to all of us. We used to have breakfast meetings but both the DE and myself are not morning people and we found that a restaurant setting wasn't good for us. In a "Normal month" If there is such a thing? We have a district meeting, a commissioners meeting, a Roundtable meeting. Extra meetings can be held which require the DE to be in attendance or some meetings might just require a visit. I do not see the need for our DE to attend and stay at Camporees, I do expect a visit. Our last Field Director was an idiot. When he wasn't requesting reports from us that he had already received and lost. He was requesting information that was readily available in the Service Center,this meant that there was a lot of time spent preparing reports prepared by the DE, that with the push of a few buttons he could have got for himself. Over the year we do have a lot of dumb meetings called by the Council, mainly to do with FOS.These tend to be time spent looking at reports that we already have or could be E-mailed with little effort. They accomplish very little. I have never read the contract that a DE signs or their full job description. I would think that they are expected to work 40 hours a week. Work is a strange thing. Sure when we hold a pizza party for our FOS people or take them up to camp this is supposed to be fun- Fun for us but it is work for the DE.The Parking Lot meeting might be when we feel that we are done and that is over and done with is still work for the DE. The phone calls at night are the DE working. The time I spent on the phone with the DE is my hobby but is the DE at work. I work 40 hours a week and get time off for the extra time I put in. I very much doubt if very many DE's keep track of all the hours that they put in. As for the phone call thing. We found that many of the calls that people make to the DE are to do with matters that should be handled by someone else. Just like the Scoutmaster who asks "Have you asked your Patrol Leader?" We have gone out of our way to get people to ask the right question to the right person. This list normally starts with the Unit Commissioner. I expect a lot from our DE, I want all the reports from the service Center to go to the right people,I hold the DE accountable to make sure this is done. I don't feel it is my job to make sure that the membership chair or the advancement chair have got their reports and I have received copies, I'm not going to chase the office staff for these. These need to be where they need to be and the DE needs to ensure that they are. I don't care how and I don't expect any excuses. I have no need to go to the Service Center other then for stuff that I want for me. If the District "Needs" something I expect it to be there when we need it. How they get it to where we need it is up to them. At times I know it would be far cheaper and far more efficient if we were to use FedEx or UPS. Do I need someone who is supposed to be an Executive playing mailman? The last idiot FD, started a lot of what he called Scoutreach Units. I question the use of the word Scout. He managed to get an Americore "Volunteer" to look after these units. When the Americore guy went MIA, he had the DE run the meetings. We had a Senior DE, earning whatever a person of that position earns doing crafts with a five kids in a housing project. A school teacher in our area starts out at under $20k. In Scouting Magazine it stated that the starting salary of a new DE is $32k. I don't care how much money they make I do think that we need to remember that they are Executives. If they work 40 hour a week they cost $15.38 an hour plus benefits. We need to give them tasks that are value for money for us. At times they become the "Dogs Body" of the district. Then we wonder why the turnover is in some councils so high. If a DE has any sense the person they need to hide from is idiot Field Directors!! Eamonn PS. I have just seen the posting by BP. Our DE's do not have these extra duties, we have a program director to take care of that sort of program stuff. To my way of thinking a DE is a District person, who is employed by the Council and who in no way works for me, but the District is the area where they need to focused on. Anything that gets in the way of that is unfair to the District.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Demann, I fail to see where the District isn't planning for next year. As we strive for QD next year that includes membership and finance. Eamonn

I had hoped to show that from the very early days in Scouting that: Training was being offered. That while many people like the idea that Scouts and Scouting took off all by it self. With boys forming units without any adult aid, this is only partly true. Scouts were around in various forms with adult leadership before there was even Scouts!! In another thread it seemed to me that Quality Trained Leadership was being brought into question. While I don't pretend to know very much about the spread of Scouting in the USA. When I look at the UK and how quickly BP saw the need for Leader Training, I think the idea of American Scouting not seeing the mistakes that had happened across the pond is not very lightly. While, as I say I am not that well read about the early days of Scouting over here,what I have read about James E. West leads me to believe that the BSA under his leadership was far better organized that English Scouting was under BP. James E. West was far better equipped to lead a youth organization because of his training with the YMCA. Baden Powell was a military officer. It strikes me that BP would be a great volunteer leader and James E. West, would have been the Scout Executive. Forgive me but I don't understand the question about destroying Scouting. Eamonn

I wonder why boys join different troops? I wonder why different Organizations choose to charter different troops? I have no idea how two Scoutmasters share the chores? "Hey Jim it's your turn to do the Scoutmaster Conference, I'll sit in and be the Scoutmaster for the PLC this month, you did it last month."? I think I know why it failed!! Eamonn.

What do you think the District "Leadership" Should do? Or Could do?? Eamonn.

Scouting For Boys, the book was published by Horace Cox a printer owned by Pearson's on January 15th 1908 priced at four pence (1.25 cents)With the subsequent parts appearing every other Wednesday. Person's was owned by Sir Arthur Pearson, who at that time had control of popular end of newspaper and magazine printing. He owned the Daily Express and the Evening Standard. The Literary Editor for Pearson's was Percy Everett, who went on to write The First Ten Years. Scouting For Boys, did include ideas from Ernest Thompson Seton, an Englishman who had emigrated to Canada. He had already published The Birch Bark Roll and formed a youth organization in 1902 called the Woodcraft Indians. He had visited England in 1904 to lecture about his organization and returned in 1904 and had four trial camps. Seton went on to become the first Chief Scout of The Boy Scouts Of America. At a dinner in 1910 he introduced Baden Powell as "The Father of Scouting" Baden Powell replied that Seton had made a slight error"There were many Fathers and that he (BP) was "Only one of many uncles." Later Seton claimed that he was the true founder of Scouting. BP, did acknowledge borrowing Seton's work and in the original Scouting For Boys, edition one he recommended that boys read Seton's works. In fact while at Brownsea Island he gave one of the boys as a prize or a gift a copy of Seton's book Two Little Savages. While the Book Scouting For Boys did make Scouting very popular with boys in England, and many did form their own Patrols and in some cases Troops and it is true that many of these were "Boy Led". There were many boys who were Scouts in other organizations. Organized Leader Training's date back to 1909, when Mr.Archibald Kyle was appointed by the Committee of The Council Chief Scoutmaster, he created the Scoutmaster Training Corps'. In 1911 Scoutmaster Training Camps were organized in London and in Yorkshire these were a series of lectures in the evenings which were followed by a weekend camp. In 1914 there was a series of articles in the Headquarters Gazette. Each article covered a different aspect of Leadership. Questions were set and like a postal course. A board of examiners were set to assess the candidates. Study Patrols were set up and weekend camps were arranged. The grand opening of Gilwell Park, took place on July 26 1919. The first Wood Badge course was held September 8th - 19th. The rest is history. Looking over the old books and the history of Scouting it becomes very clear that Baden Powell really did expect Scouting and Scout Patrols to be part of other organizations, he never thought that this Movement would ever become as big as it did and never grow as fast as it did. When it came down to getting things done. It is worth remembering that in the very early days he was on half pay and he asked people who he trusted to get the job done. While in the early days BP was not keen on rule books and that sort of thing he thought that the Leaders would be like free agents working "In communication and not bondage". He did see the need for training and firm leadership. He also saw the need for Quality Leadership. It did take a little while to get everything sorted out in part because the first world war got in the way. As I was looking up some of this I found an article about a man from a coal mining town who wanted to take his Scouts to camp. They didn't have the money, so he borrowed an organ grinder, he then went from town to town grinding the organ and collecting donations. This after working his shift in the coal mine. I like this guy. If ever there was a Knight in shinning armor to a bunch of kids it was him. Eamonn.

As I was saying.... In fact it can be said that there were some groups formed before Brown Sea Island. Due to needing money and under the watchful eye of his mother BP wrote a lot of books. He did need to live a life style that was in keeping with his brother officers in the army so the income from the books helped out. He also used the books as a way to be noticed by his superior officers. The dedications of his early books were to senior officers who might be gratified to be publicly acknowledged and who would remember his name in the future. Aids To Scouting was published in 1899. Later retitled Aids to Scouting for NCOs and Men. There are records of a letter that BP received in 1900, that states "My two cousins and I have formed a B.P.S.S., that means Baden Powell Scouting Society.." This was 1900 and the book was written at least seven years before Scouting For Boys. Many young people were using the book as some sort of a manual. In 1904 BP was invited to be the Inspecting Officer at Annual Inspection and Drill of The Boys Brigade. William Smith the founder of the Boys Brigade was keen to work with BP and broaden the scope of activities that the Boys Brigade offered, he challenged BP to come up with such a program. Baden Powell was a honorary vice-president of the Boys Brigade until his death. The Boys Brigade did for a time have their own versions of Patrols and did for a while have a Scout uniform and offer a First Class and Second class badge. BP never thought of Scouting as being an Organization he always felt that it could fit very well into other existing organizations. I think this is one reason why he choose to call it a Movement. In November 1906 BP visited the YMCA at Birkenhead, where he outlined his idea for"Peace Scouts". The Church Lads' Brigade founded in my part of London - Fulham in 1891. In 1900 when Aids to Scouting was published the Church Lads' Brigade used it as their manual. Church Lads' Scout Patrols were started in 1908 and wore the Scout uniform when it was changed in 1913, in 1915 Scout Patrols were discontinued in the Church Lads' Brigade . However there was still Church Lads' Brigade troops until 1936 when the came up with their own program which was still very similar to Boy Scouts. These early relationships were very important to the development of Scouting in the early days. Many see the Brownsea Island camp as the start of Scouting as we know it. BP insisted in a letter to the editor of the Daily Mirror (One of the big UK newspapers.) that the camp was a little experiment. With all the talk we have had in this forum about socioeconomic factors,it is interesting to note that BP charged the "Town boys" three shillings and sixpence (28 cents) and the Public School Lads one pound ($1.60) In England Public Schools are the private schools. The Boys were split into patrols: The Wolves Patrol, The Bulls Patrol,The Curlews Patrol and The Ravens Patrol. (Back in a bit) Eamonn

I know it might be wrong but there are some things that I am happy to not know everything about. I am happy to allow myself to follow the masses and not find out the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Some years back we held a religious retreat at Jamonville. The guest speaker was a George Washington historian. He was there to explain what a great man George was and how in his writings he wrote about God. The guy was good, he really knew his stuff. He wasn't good with kids. His first question was to everyone asking them what they knew about George Washington? One little Cub Scout stuck his hand in the air and explained about George and the cherry tree. The Historian spent the next five minutes explaining how it wasn't true. I like the tale about George and the cherry tree. I like to think that Richard the Lion Heart was a good guy and Prince John was the bad guy. I don't care if Robin Hood and his merry men are not real. I like the idea of the guy going around taking from the rich and giving to the poor. King Arther and the knights of the round table are good people in my book. So it is with Baden Powell. I like the idea that he was a good person, a national hero in England and the founder of Scouting. Sure I have read about "The Boy" and I have read that he might have taken a lot of ideas from other clever and gifted people. Still as a kid and as a Scout in England we were led to believe that Baden Powell was to Scouting what George Washington is to America. If George is the Father of the USA, Baden is the Father of Scouting. The early days of Scouting are not well documented, mainly because in the very early days Scouting in the UK was not very well organized. (I have to go to an Eagle Scout Court of Honor but will be back.) Eamonn.

I was going to add my 2 cents worth but in fairness to cjmiam, I will spin off Eamonn